Hema
Sweet n Spicy
The opening of one's chakras allows for self-realization - there is nothing to be picturized, only experienced. The chakra is merely a channel.
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TAO TE CHING - a study and UNDERSTANDING
- Thread starter zenzero
- Start date
The opening of one's chakras allows for self-realization - there is nothing to be picturized, only experienced. The chakra is merely a channel.
ChrisP
Veteran Member
zenzero said:
Your point is valid, but I feel differently about the teachings of adults to children.
We as human beings encounter many different circumstances in our lifetimes, for which our parents/mentors/experiences equip us with tools.
These tools appear in many forms, physical emotional and mental and more besides my easily distracted mind cannot perceive or comprehend. Sometimes (often) I find myself combining several tools from across these skill-sets to create something useful in the circumstances I find myself. Seeing as we all share our humanity I'm going to go ahead and assume (***-u-me) that other people also do this. Whether they are aware of it or this use of combined tools is an unconscious reaction to circumstance is not something anyone without an ACME Mind Reader could determine for you.
Awareness of the interaction of your heart-mind and mental faculties is something that can only be reflected upon when they are not interacting. Human mental analysis as you note below removes the ability for this synthesis of two different skill-sets.
Now, to the point of adults teaching children.
We are all born, as you note above, with this untrained intuition born of the natural state. However as human beings we are presented with the gift of creativity, and with this creativity comes the need to understand the creations of others.
Sometimes this is a defensive requirement, a defense of our mind, a defense of our heart perhaps a defense of our family (something which Tao holds dear). Sometimes it is an tool for assistance of those around us, shaping our actions in flow with circumstance.
When you were a child, could you discern the difference between knowing and not knowing? Understanding and ignorance? Existence and non-existence?
We learn these things through living. If we had never lived can we be sure we would understand such things? These teach us comparison, and through comparison the relativity of these self-supporting concepts.
If you only ever drank water, and had never tasted coffee, how could you compare the two? We identify with one or the other, and in this identification gain understanding of their irrelevance.
Basically what I think I am saying is that I agree with you, before birth we are perfect in our ignorance. But it is through our lives, and the the experience of having our ignorance stripped from us that we understand existence.
The fault lies in our human misunderstanding. Everything we learn and experience is a tool for future circumstance. Instead we incorporate this into our being, a natural thing to be sure, but something we eventually realise is not of ourselves.
Basically what I think I'm getting at, is it takes the growth into adulthood to make a person realise the usefulness and naturalistic nature of a childlike mindset. But I also think you are overlooking the usefulness of an adult mind and the experience and insight an adult gains through living.
Understanding only comes through experience. A child cannot realise what it is experiencing if it has no differing experience.
Scarlett Wampus
psychonaut
Zenzero I second ChrisP's ideas on this matter. The innocence of a child is enormously different to the equanimity of an adult. Below is an excerpt from Ken Wilber's book, A Brief History of Everything. It comes from the chapter called "On the Way to Global: Part 1". I really recommend you get the book and read that chapter and the three that follow it because this is an important subject and what Wilber has written about it is useful. If I could I'd type up all four chapters.
[concerning the mind of a baby] there is nothing deep or profound about this emotional fusion state, even though it, too, sounds like a nice "holistic oneness with the world." But in fact, researchers are virtually unanimous in pointing out that this state is still extremely egocentric or narcissistic.
...
And precisely because it is embedded in nature, in biology, in impulse, in the vital-emotional sphere, it cannot rise above that embeddedness and see that its perspective is not the only perspective in existence. Biocentric is extremely egocentric, as we will constantly see.
[concerning the development on from this of a differentiated emotional self] ...Many theorists take this as the beginning of alienation, of really profound alienation. They have called it the basic fault, the basic default, the basic dualism, the split between subject and object, the beginning of fragmented awareness...An extraordinary amount has been read into this differentiation and the "loss" of the previous emotional fusion. Its supposed to be the ejection from a primal paradise, the beginning of massive alienation, the start of the human tragedy, the beginning of Paradise Lost [like your Garden of Eden analogy, zenzero]. I think it also causes tooth decay, but I'm not sure.
The problem is that most of theorists simply confuse differentiation with dissociation. Differentiation is a necessary and unavoidable part of all evolutionary growth and development, the counterpart to reaching higher integration, as when an acorn differentiates and integrates in order to become an oak. But these theorists look at any differentiation, not as a prelude to higher integration, but as a brutal disruption of a prior and wonderful harmony, as if the oak were somehow a horrible violation of the acorn.
...they confuse fusion with freedom. But fusion is imprisonment; you are dominated by all that you have not transcended. But of course that transcendental growth is difficult and perilous and painful.
The manifest world is a brutal place, and as humans become aware of this, they suffer. The manifest world, the world of samsara, is an alienated and alienating place. And as the infant becomes vaguely aware of that, it suffers horribly. And yes, this is painful, but it's called waking up.
It's a bit like frostbite disease. First there is no feeling at all; everything seems fine, you're in a paradise of no pain. You're diseased, you just don't know it. Then it thaws out, and feeling and emotions emerge, and it hurts like hell. These theorists confuse "hurts like hell" with the disease itself.
[concerning the mind of a baby] there is nothing deep or profound about this emotional fusion state, even though it, too, sounds like a nice "holistic oneness with the world." But in fact, researchers are virtually unanimous in pointing out that this state is still extremely egocentric or narcissistic.
...
And precisely because it is embedded in nature, in biology, in impulse, in the vital-emotional sphere, it cannot rise above that embeddedness and see that its perspective is not the only perspective in existence. Biocentric is extremely egocentric, as we will constantly see.
[concerning the development on from this of a differentiated emotional self] ...Many theorists take this as the beginning of alienation, of really profound alienation. They have called it the basic fault, the basic default, the basic dualism, the split between subject and object, the beginning of fragmented awareness...An extraordinary amount has been read into this differentiation and the "loss" of the previous emotional fusion. Its supposed to be the ejection from a primal paradise, the beginning of massive alienation, the start of the human tragedy, the beginning of Paradise Lost [like your Garden of Eden analogy, zenzero]. I think it also causes tooth decay, but I'm not sure.
The problem is that most of theorists simply confuse differentiation with dissociation. Differentiation is a necessary and unavoidable part of all evolutionary growth and development, the counterpart to reaching higher integration, as when an acorn differentiates and integrates in order to become an oak. But these theorists look at any differentiation, not as a prelude to higher integration, but as a brutal disruption of a prior and wonderful harmony, as if the oak were somehow a horrible violation of the acorn.
...they confuse fusion with freedom. But fusion is imprisonment; you are dominated by all that you have not transcended. But of course that transcendental growth is difficult and perilous and painful.
The manifest world is a brutal place, and as humans become aware of this, they suffer. The manifest world, the world of samsara, is an alienated and alienating place. And as the infant becomes vaguely aware of that, it suffers horribly. And yes, this is painful, but it's called waking up.
It's a bit like frostbite disease. First there is no feeling at all; everything seems fine, you're in a paradise of no pain. You're diseased, you just don't know it. Then it thaws out, and feeling and emotions emerge, and it hurts like hell. These theorists confuse "hurts like hell" with the disease itself.
Scarlett Wampus
psychonaut
Btw interpreting chapter 2 as a description of detached equanimity seems good to me. If you cannot avoid ugliness when appreciating beauty, and even see these two apparent opposites as dependent upon each other, then it can happen that one doesn't personally identify with taking a side in a conflict that cannot be won once and for all and is always going to further divide against itself. That makes things a lot easier.
The thing is though, there is a kind of beauty or goodness which goes beyond this clash of opposites and it comes as a result of cultivating a third "detached" conciliatory principle where one mediates between opposing forces. This would be the equivalent of nurturing Te, natural virtue.
I had an email discussion with someone yesterday and we got to talking about some New Age concepts of avoiding negativity. She wrote something about how she dealt with such ideas from New Agers while growing up. I think it offers some insight into what Te is like: -
"I used to know a lot of people who refused to hang out with "negative" people because of the fear of somehow being infected. I didn't get it, because I could take on negativity and be OK, or not take it on and still be OK. When I let it in I learned a lot and could often transform it into something positive / progressive that would often rub off on the company. When I shut it out I learned nothing and helped no-one. One of the things I learned is that neurotically positive people are boring, and often a bit deluded. I also learned the world is not always pretty, but it is always beautiful, and that obsessing about prettiness makes people blind to beauty."
Obsessing about prettiness is also obsessing about ugliness, but what is this beauty that is there throughout and becomes clear when one ceases to obsess about things? That, I suppose, is the Tao.
The thing is though, there is a kind of beauty or goodness which goes beyond this clash of opposites and it comes as a result of cultivating a third "detached" conciliatory principle where one mediates between opposing forces. This would be the equivalent of nurturing Te, natural virtue.
I had an email discussion with someone yesterday and we got to talking about some New Age concepts of avoiding negativity. She wrote something about how she dealt with such ideas from New Agers while growing up. I think it offers some insight into what Te is like: -
"I used to know a lot of people who refused to hang out with "negative" people because of the fear of somehow being infected. I didn't get it, because I could take on negativity and be OK, or not take it on and still be OK. When I let it in I learned a lot and could often transform it into something positive / progressive that would often rub off on the company. When I shut it out I learned nothing and helped no-one. One of the things I learned is that neurotically positive people are boring, and often a bit deluded. I also learned the world is not always pretty, but it is always beautiful, and that obsessing about prettiness makes people blind to beauty."
Obsessing about prettiness is also obsessing about ugliness, but what is this beauty that is there throughout and becomes clear when one ceases to obsess about things? That, I suppose, is the Tao.
Hema
Sweet n Spicy
I never said self realization leads to opening of the chakras. I said when all chakras are open there is self realization. It is not even something that you have to wilfully do, it can happen naturally - by going within - the same thing you've been saying all the time.
zenzero
Its only a Label
Once again,
Watch those words
I THOUGHT- this very thinking is creating differences and leading man astray.
The function of the mind is to think but religion is for man to put that very mind to rest and become intiutive/natural and live in harmony.
Be aware even of the small thoughts and when that awareness is complete, realsisation comes on its own.
Love & rgds
Watch those words
I THOUGHT- this very thinking is creating differences and leading man astray.
The function of the mind is to think but religion is for man to put that very mind to rest and become intiutive/natural and live in harmony.
Be aware even of the small thoughts and when that awareness is complete, realsisation comes on its own.
Love & rgds
PureX
Veteran Member
Ah! That beautiful mystery. *smile* Makes my heart smile just to refer to it ... the joy of being, and of being cognizant of being. And that being including the good, the bad, and all the rest.
zenzero
Its only a Label
Since there are no doubts raised by the readers; it is taken that they have understood the first two stanzas. Now, we shall attempt the third stanza:
3
If you overesteem great men,
people become powerless.
If you overvalue possessions,
people begin to steal.
[ If one over estimates great men/ powerful men; the other people become powerless. Understand this line if one overvalues possessions, people begin to steal. Means those who are very attached to material things will get them stolen as those who does not give materials things much heed it makes no difference what happens to it. They use it if they have it if not too its fine. The lose of a thing happens when one values it then only its loss affects the person and misses it, otherwise not much attention is given to having or nat having]
The Master leads
by emptying people's minds
and filling their cores,
by weakening their ambition
and toughening their resolve.
He helps people lose everything
they know, everything they desire,
and creates confusion
in those who think that they know.
[ The master leads by emptying the minds clearly means he goes about getting them to still their minds or empty their thoughts from the minds. Here too it’s the opposites that is in play. When the ambitions or mind trainings and mind play are weakened and at the same time their determination to get back to the source, to merge into that NOTHINGNESS becomes stronger; the real person emerges, the nature slowly takes charge and strengthens the individual. The confusion here is bound to happen when one who for many many lives have been living by using the mind which is the most normal thing to do has to still it is very very difficult to comprehend itself and the mind starts creating the confusion at to what is right. What was known to be right by the knowledgeable person or the desiring mind is found to be the maya/false/illusion; is confusing for the individual.
Practice not-doing,
and everything will fall into place.
[Practice not doing. The most difficult part. I exits so I am doing ? Here one has to understand that he is a part of the whole existence. Existence goes about his own work irrespective of the individual. It is only the mind that gives the feeling that man is doing. The global warming is caused by greenhouse is not proved; the other aspect if there is warming the opposite too will be there, a great cooling too will be developing somewhere. Like pull and push all opposites happen simultaneously. So whatever one is doing his just happening through him but he is not a part of it. It is no doubt the most difficult part as non-duality is the last stage but one needs to start practicing it to be perfect in it at some point.]
3
If you overesteem great men,
people become powerless.
If you overvalue possessions,
people begin to steal.
[ If one over estimates great men/ powerful men; the other people become powerless. Understand this line if one overvalues possessions, people begin to steal. Means those who are very attached to material things will get them stolen as those who does not give materials things much heed it makes no difference what happens to it. They use it if they have it if not too its fine. The lose of a thing happens when one values it then only its loss affects the person and misses it, otherwise not much attention is given to having or nat having]
The Master leads
by emptying people's minds
and filling their cores,
by weakening their ambition
and toughening their resolve.
He helps people lose everything
they know, everything they desire,
and creates confusion
in those who think that they know.
[ The master leads by emptying the minds clearly means he goes about getting them to still their minds or empty their thoughts from the minds. Here too it’s the opposites that is in play. When the ambitions or mind trainings and mind play are weakened and at the same time their determination to get back to the source, to merge into that NOTHINGNESS becomes stronger; the real person emerges, the nature slowly takes charge and strengthens the individual. The confusion here is bound to happen when one who for many many lives have been living by using the mind which is the most normal thing to do has to still it is very very difficult to comprehend itself and the mind starts creating the confusion at to what is right. What was known to be right by the knowledgeable person or the desiring mind is found to be the maya/false/illusion; is confusing for the individual.
Practice not-doing,
and everything will fall into place.
[Practice not doing. The most difficult part. I exits so I am doing ? Here one has to understand that he is a part of the whole existence. Existence goes about his own work irrespective of the individual. It is only the mind that gives the feeling that man is doing. The global warming is caused by greenhouse is not proved; the other aspect if there is warming the opposite too will be there, a great cooling too will be developing somewhere. Like pull and push all opposites happen simultaneously. So whatever one is doing his just happening through him but he is not a part of it. It is no doubt the most difficult part as non-duality is the last stage but one needs to start practicing it to be perfect in it at some point.]