Supreme Court rules subsidization of private schools must also include religious ones

[Shaul]

Their youth as in all of them, or the just those who can afford it? I would rather my tax money go towards something available to every child rather than towards something that's elective and exclusive.

The scholarships are available to all

Their youth as in all of them, or the just those who can afford it? I would rather my tax money go towards something available to every child rather than towards something that's elective and exclusive.

There is no income level requirement. Statistics show that more poor people use charter schools than rich people. Also minorities fare better in Charter schools which are paid for by scholarships such as Montana’s.

You might want to read Thomas Sowell’s new book on this topic. https://nypost.com/2020/06/27/charter-schools-are-the-best-way-to-wipe-out-educational-disparity/

 

[Brickjectivity]

I observe that some people do better in smaller schools.
"So much education"
They're getting too much?

Its normal to develop socially, and its healthy even if some students can't do it well. Even though the knowledge is worth the trouble its still not natural or ideal to take put young people through years of school and separation from family. People don't naturally sit still for hours absorbing and rehearsing data. There is a cost/benefit to this not only benefit, and its a big deal for most students. Most students benefit from having a lot of friends to choose from. It helps.

 

[SomeRandom]

I tend to broaden it to 'rich family's brat', but there are some substantial differences in educational system structures between the US and Australia, so I'm being somewhat evasive in terms of committing too strongly.

I'm very passionate about education, just a few things in that article which didn't make sense to me as an outsider (despite my education background).

Out of curiosity, what are those differences?
I can complain about my public school experiences as an Aussie. But American TV always made out like their schools were nothing short of regimented outdated boot camps lol

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Out of curiosity, what are those differences?
I can complain about my public school experiences as an Aussie. But American TV always made out like their schools were nothing short of regimented outdated boot camps lol

Oh, well in the context I meant here it was more around school funding than 'a day in the life'.

Without too much detail, local property taxes make up a substantial amount of the funding pool. It's kinda the anti-Finnish model. Stratification of schooling based on wealth is encouraged systematically. Quite different even to Australian funding models.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Because small schools make it harder for students to socialize. To begin with its unnatural to disrupt their growth with so much education. At least mitigate that damage when possible.

I'd push back somewhat on this. I taught at a school with a maximum population of 13, and I'd argue the children were well socialised and had a strong (if small) community.

However, curriculum wise we followed a state curriculum specifically designed around remote learning (including access to teaching materials and support) to avoid some of the pitfalls tiny schools can have. We also had a qualified teacher running the school (me!).

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Why would a community pay private schools when it already has a functioning public school system?

Personally I think it's problematic. It leads to multiple issues, by granting rights to some groups above others (deliberately or not).

 

[Revoltingest]

Its normal to develop socially, and its healthy even if some students can't do it well. Even though the knowledge is worth the trouble its still not natural or ideal to take put young people through years of school and separation from family. People don't naturally sit still for hours absorbing and rehearsing data. There is a cost/benefit to this not only benefit, and its a big deal for most students. Most students benefit from having a lot of friends to choose from. It helps.

The problem I see is a one-size-fits-all education.
Kids who learn differently, or aren't college bound
have needs that are largely ignored.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I'd push back somewhat on this. I taught at a school with a maximum population of 13, and I'd argue the children were well socialised and had a strong (if small) community.

However, curriculum wise we followed a state curriculum specifically designed around remote learning (including access to teaching materials and support) to avoid some of the pitfalls tiny schools can have. We also had a qualified teacher running the school (me!).

You have teaching experience, so lets assume that smaller schools are equal or superior if they have a certified teacher. Certified teachers are paid more, and that is why they aren't employed as much by smaller schools or wouldn't work at smaller schools which pay a pittance comparatively. The lack of certification is a frequent problem probably.

We have a lot of unqualified teachers working in private school systems, true. Public schools always require certification, but parents may opt out of public schools. I went to a grammar school largely taught by parents who were members of our church. That was my experience. They had various degrees, and the principal was probably certified to teach. They were paid a pittance compared to what trained teachers would have demanded. I don't think vouchers would fix this problem.

I don't think we will push through this (certification) as the minimum requirement for vouchers, because parents have the right to determine where children are taught and ultimately also if they are taught (using the Amish as an example). Private schools already employ uncertified people to teach, and parents choose these schools in spite of available, sponsored public education complete with transportation provided to and from school. This is all based on the right of the parent to determine things for the children. Yes, some are concerned about the quality of public education. Most are just concerned its not religious enough.

 

[Brickjectivity]

The problem I see is a one-size-fits-all education.
Kids who learn differently, or aren't college bound
have needs that are largely ignored.

That is a problem, yes. I wouldn't minimize that one.

 

[Tambourine]

Personally I think it's problematic. It leads to multiple issues, by granting rights to some groups above others (deliberately or not).

What is problematic? It seems incredibly wasteful to me to fund a working school system and then, instead of maintaining and improving the existing one, to fund another school system that runs in parallel to the already existing one.

 

[Revoltingest]

What is problematic? It seems incredibly wasteful to me to fund a working school system and then, instead of maintaining and improving the existing one, to fund another school system that runs in parallel to the already existing one.

If public school systems all did a great job, it would indeed lessen
the demand for private schools. But there's no magic wand to wave
away public school failure. So the private alternative exists, as does
the desire to subsidize it.

 

[SomeRandom]

You have teaching experience, so lets assume that smaller schools are equal or superior if they have a certified teacher. Certified teachers are paid more, and that is why they aren't employed as much by smaller schools or wouldn't work at smaller schools which pay a pittance comparatively. The lack of certification is a frequent problem probably.

We have a lot of unqualified teachers working in private school systems, true. Public schools always require certification, but parents may opt out of public schools. I went to a grammar school largely taught by parents who were members of our church. That was my experience. They had various degrees, and the principal was probably certified to teach. They were paid a pittance compared to what trained teachers would have demanded. I don't think vouchers would fix this problem.

I don't think we will push through this (certification) as the minimum requirement for vouchers, because parents have the right to determine where children are taught and ultimately also if they are taught (using the Amish as an example). Private schools already employ uncertified people to teach, and parents choose these schools in spite of available, sponsored public education complete with transportation provided to and from school. This is all based on the right of the parent to determine things for the children. Yes, some are concerned about the quality of public education. Most are just concerned its not religious enough.

Wait, people can be teachers without credentials in America? Did I read that right?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

What is problematic? It seems incredibly wasteful to me to fund a working school system and then, instead of maintaining and improving the existing one, to fund another school system that runs in parallel to the already existing one.

That's what I mean. I was agreeing with you.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Wait, people can be teachers without credentials in America? Did I read that right?

From memory you can usually only do this for a period of time, rather than permanently. But I believe the period of time is something like 3 years, and I doubt it's strictly enforced.

There are also exemptions. It varies state to state, but in some at least having any bachelor's degree is enough.

Again, pretty different to here.

 

[SomeRandom]

From memory you can usually only do this for a period of time, rather than permanently. But I believe the period of time is something like 3 years, and I doubt it's strictly enforced.

There are also exemptions. It varies state to state, but in some at least having any bachelor's degree is enough.

Again, pretty different to here.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Wait, people can be teachers without credentials in America? Did I read that right?

Requirements vary by state and territory. There are 50 states. I don't know what is current.

Private Schools
Do I Need to Be Licensed to Teach in a Private School?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Requirements vary by state and territory. There are 50 states. I don't know what is current.

Private Schools
Do I Need to Be Licensed to Teach in a Private School?

Whilst true that the requirements vary by state and territory, the fact that it's possible to teach in private schools in America without being licensed is a fact.
That is not to suggest it is the case at ALL private schools. But there mere fact that it is the case at SOME is pretty eye-opening to an Australian.

Because education still interests me (despite leaving the profession 20 years ago...my how time flies...!!!) I have done a fair bit of reading on both this and funding models. Pair those items up alongside standardised testing and how's it's delivered, and you have three simply defined issues with the education system in the US (in my opinion).

The standardised testing one is increasingly apparent in Australia, too.

(Please note...most of my interest and knowledge is around primary schooling. I'm less interested in high schooling...just cos)

 

[lewisnotmiller]

If public school systems all did a great job, it would indeed lessen
the demand for private schools. But there's no magic wand to wave
away public school failure. So the private alternative exists, as does
the desire to subsidize it.

It's a valid point.
I also think you'd find public schooling would improve if private schools were waved away.

Like I have mentioned before, this is one issue (maybe the only one??!!) where I sit more on the radical side. Albeit in a low-key and polite way.
'I say, old chap, lets rip these private schools down and take a little tinkle on the rubble, what?'

 

[Revoltingest]

It's a valid point.
I also think you'd find public schooling would improve if private schools were waved away.

I doubt that.
Public school quality was & is a major reason for the existence of private schools.

Like I have mentioned before, this is one issue (maybe the only one??!!) where I sit more on the radical side. Albeit in a low-key and polite way.
'I say, old chap, lets rip these private schools down and take a little tinkle on the rubble, what?'

It appears that we have fundamentally different views on how to run a society.
You advocate a single system....a universally good one run by government.
It would be so reliably good, that you'd tear down & disallow back-up systems.
I prefer decentralization & choice. Keep public schools, but allow other ways
to flourish....diversity of thought & methods...all meeting prescribed standards.
Would it be fair to say that you're an "order" kind of guy, & that I'm "chaos"?

 

[SomeRandom]

Whilst true that the requirements vary by state and territory, the fact that it's possible to teach in private schools in America without being licensed is a fact.
That is not to suggest it is the case at ALL private schools. But there mere fact that it is the case at SOME is pretty eye-opening to an Australian.

Because education still interests me (despite leaving the profession 20 years ago...my how time flies...!!!) I have done a fair bit of reading on both this and funding models. Pair those items up alongside standardised testing and how's it's delivered, and you have three simply defined issues with the education system in the US (in my opinion).

The standardised testing one is increasingly apparent in Australia, too.

(Please note...most of my interest and knowledge is around primary schooling. I'm less interested in high schooling...just cos)

Yeah my family on both sides has a lot of teachers. In all levels and subjects. My cousin the math teacher is incidentally the current deputy principal of my old primary. His brother taught English at my old high school, coincidentally.
Side note it is extremely weird seeing a bloke who would frequently get drunk with all the dads suddenly be all sober and in “teacher mode.” But still have that familiarity intact.
Thank god I was never in his class. Could you imagine the parent teacher interview??
I think their mum taught kindergarten for like 40 years or something. Their dad was a principal who became a greens party member.
So I grew up listening to drunken complaints about the public education system and various issues they took with it.
But the thought that even a select amount of private schools allow just a random bachelor degree or even non accredited teachers is surprising to me. I mean private schools are supposed to be of higher quality so I just naturally assume there should be higher levels of requirements. I mean what are people paying them for??
Even my cousin who is a headmistress in Fiji had to jump through more hoops to teach, and I love Fiji don’t get me wrong, but they’re not exactly a first world nation. Let alone a superpower like the US.

I’m also against increases of standardised testing on principle.