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Suppression of Free Speech on Covid

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
we are relying not on me, but on you to tell us if the vax is "Safe" .. providing the metrics on which you based this decision..
I did that for you a few weeks ago. You quoted it, but you didn't comment on my argument: Most recent cases and deaths of Covid-19 are unvaccinated.

And we have the results of a global controlled study. The control group was the unvaccinated. The two groups separated so early in the "study" that were it a formal study, it would have been terminated and written up prematurely for compassionate reasons.

Your analysis is incomplete. It seems to include only two parameters: infection rate and vaccine complication rate. You'd need to stratify that into infection rate, severe infection rate, death rate, long COVID rate, permanent organ damage rate, and other late term sequalae rates from virus and/or vaccine (remains to be seen) according to vaccination status. Oh, and you might want to factor in medical financial collapse rate and orphaning/loss of caretaker rates according to vaccination status as well.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
You don't know what you're talking about.
No, that appears to be you.

Did you even read the information I provided in my last post beyond the first sentence? It doesn't appear so. And that's all you bothered responding to.


"Misleading: While SV40 is known to cause cancer in certain animals like hamsters, epidemiological studies didn’t find an elevated risk of cancer in people who received SV40-contaminated polio vaccine.
Inadequate support: Neither the preprint by McKernan et al. nor the other studies cited in the article provided evidence for the claim that COVID-19 mRNA vaccines contained significant DNA contamination or that the vaccines can alter DNA in people. The analysis underpinning this claim was performed on vials of unknown origin ...
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
I'm not the one who is having a problem with backing up their claim with facts.
Yes, in fact, you are.

This is the third post now where I've asked if you've read the arguments against your claims, and the third total non-response I've gotten from you on that. It speaks volumes.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
No, you saying it doesn't make it a fact, just like fishing for an argument isn't the same thing as showing a fact.
Me demonstrating it, makes it a fact. This is the fourth time you've responded to me in which you did not address the counterarguments provided, at all.

In other words, it appears you don't have a counterargument to the argument pointing out that you have misunderstood the non-peer-reviewed, -pre-print that you cited as some sort of be-all and end-all of factual information. Well, it isn't. And you've said absolutely nothing to address arguments against it pointing out its flaws and inaccuracies or the apparent fact that you've misunderstood what it says.
 

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
Let's review the facts that are on the table:

From Kevin McKernan's twitter (he discovered the presence of the SV40 promoter):

BREAKING- Latest study on 27 vials. All vials exceed the guidelines by orders of magnitude using Fluorometry. All vials are under the guidelines using qPCR for single dose. Over once you take many.

https://osf.io/mjc97/

Also, from worldcouncilforhealth.org:

The plasmids were found to contain additional components that were not present in the clinical trials. Sequencing revealed SV40 components that had not been disclosed in the plasmid maps provided to the regulators. The SV40 enhancer present in the plasmid is actually used in gene therapy to drag DNA into the nucleus. As the nucleic acid in the shots is encapsulated in lipid nanoparticles, it can cross the cell membrane into the cell, from where it may be escorted into the nucleus posing a risk of integration into the genome.

kevin-mckernan-plasmidgate-2-1024x575.jpg
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
You've only demonstrated your own incompetence in the art of presenting an argument.
You're the one that presented the argument.
I countered it.

You've not addressed any substance from my posts. And now you're posting the same thing again and trying to supplement with a weird opinion piece and a Twitter feed. This dude's work has not been corroborated.

I'm afraid I can no longer take you seriously.
 

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
You're the one that presented the argument.
I countered it.
If there's a difference between the article I referenced and my claim then there should be facts that support that, but you obviously don't have any.

Your "countering" was:
Nah, the problem is the non-peer-reviewed, pre-print that you cited doesn't demonstrate what you claim it does and it's got some methodological errors as well.
 

Sargonski

Well-Known Member
That is a 0.125% chance of a complication. That means that 99.875% of participants did not have said complications. All medical procedures carry some sort of non-zero percent risk factor. How do you look at a number like 99.875% and say "Not good enough"?

Excellent question .. complete with a calculation .. showing your work .. showing you put at least a few brain cells to work.

Indeed -- ALL medical procedures carry some sort of non zero percent risk. and in fact the odds of harm from a Terrorist attack as a US citizen in the US ... is 400 times less than the risk of harm from "Walking" ... god forbid you drive a car.

So - then ..on the other side of the scale .. "Safe" is not 100% safe .. but what is that percentage .. and to what risk of harm .. if I said look ..Cross that Bridge over yonder .. only have a 1 in 100 chance of dying .. picture Russian roullette with 100 chambers .. and one bullet.

Is that bridge safe to cross ? how about a 1 in 1000 chance ? how about 1 in 1 million chance.. .. math games that make you go hmmm

Now .. we are not talking death here although we are .. as there is also a risk of death from an SAR .. but most are not fatal .. death a very small percentage of the total and so I will completly reject it from the risk calculation.

What is an SAR - Severe Adverse Reaction - ... now crossing that bridge has a 1 in 100 chance of SAR ... is that safe ? For arguments sake .. let us assume that an SAR is something really bad .. so bad you don't want to go through it .. something leaving permanent scars and damage to your heart.. where at some pont you were at real risk .. and not hypothetical risk of death .. a "Fight for your life" so to speak in which some small percentage die .. maybe 0.125 :) I don't know the answer but know where i might find it

Most SAR's are myocharditis .. swelling in the liver tissue .. leaving scaring .. sometimes a heart attack .. another bad one is if the swelling happens in the brain .. stroke .. bad things. assume the definition includes a lengthy stay in the hospital .. not something you want to willingly take on.

Bridge .. 1 in 100 chance of SAR ? is it safe ? How about if its a bridge on your way to work - 200 days a year .. both ways so 400 crossing. is the bridge Safe ? knowing that one day this year you get to put the revolver to your head with 3 of the 4 chambers full ... and pull the trigger .. the lucky winner having a Severe Adverse Reaction ..

How about 1 in 1000 chance .. 3 of 40 chambers now full .. "Do ya feel lucky Punk" ?

Now .. as the smart calculater I know you are .. - will say but , I am not jabbing myself every day .. which is correct.. so lets factor that into the equation. How many times are you Jabbing per year .. lets go with 3... over 10 years = 30 Jabs.. each containing a 1 in 800 chance of SAR for the average person .. but sorry .. You are not the average person .. we are talking about your Son who is from 16-30 years in age .. healthy - has had covid so has natural immunity .. and thus will gain almost zero benefit from the vax if any .. in fact have a study somewhere .. oh yeah .. was the cleveland study .. says you should not Jab if you have natural immunity .. but even if you didn't the risk of harm from "Omnicron" to a fellow in this demographic is statistically zero .. if you thought 0.125% was low .. talking one in 5 million or some ridiculously high number .. keeping in mind the healthy part .. which is very important ... as all the stats you been hearing related to the really unhealthy segment of the population. but I have digressed.

Our subject .. a lad - 16-30 .. has a 300% greater risk of Myocharditis than the ave .. So now we are talking not 1 in 800 but 1 in 266 .. call it 1 in 300 to compensate for the fact that not all SAR's are Myo .. roughly 80% .. but you don't want the other stuff anyway .. "Brain swelling"

1 in 300 .. Jabbing 3 times a year for 10 years = 1 in 30 chance .. over 30 years 1 in 10 .. Jab for 90 years and its 1 in 3.

You tell me .. is that Safe ? and for the average person it is 1 in 9 ... still not really Safe from that perspective now is it.

but Wait .. surely someone has outlined where this Safty bar is for Vaccines .. and in fact ... happy day indeed they have done so .. and what is even better .. the metric used is SAR ... Severe Adverse Reaction.

The Swine Flu vax was taken off the market .. "Not safe enough" having an SAR of 1 in 100,000. The bar where there is universal acceptance would be 1 in 1 million .. so somewhere in between A and B is what the medical "do no harm" community has to say on the issue.

So when you take your 16 year old boy to the doctor .. a healthy lad .. beat covid once already .. said he had far worse flue's in the past - risk of harm "SAR" in the millions and the Doctor .. who gives you the stat I just mentioned .. as is their duty when offering any medical treatment .. and tells you the risk for your lad is 1 in 300 .. per Jab .. the recommended dosage is 6 Jabs a year cause the effect wanes quickly and thus after 10 years of this treatment .. will be a 1 in 5 chance of having major heart damage.

Is that Safe ? considering the vax is not doing anything for a healthy person .. because there is nothing to do .. healthy folks were not showing up at the hospital with Covid in any significant numbers .. never mind hitting the ICU and dying from Omicron. and in Omicron was a number of times less harmful to the healthy than the seasonal flue. and while I am not recommending the seasonal flue vax .. not for nor against .. I can tell you that the risk of an SAR from the flue shot is nowhere near 1-800 for the average soul.
 

Quetzal

A little to the left and slightly out of focus.
Premium Member
Excellent question .. complete with a calculation .. showing your work .. showing you put at least a few brain cells to work.

Indeed -- ALL medical procedures carry some sort of non zero percent risk. and in fact the odds of harm from a Terrorist attack as a US citizen in the US ... is 400 times less than the risk of harm from "Walking" ... god forbid you drive a car.

So - then ..on the other side of the scale .. "Safe" is not 100% safe .. but what is that percentage .. and to what risk of harm .. if I said look ..Cross that Bridge over yonder .. only have a 1 in 100 chance of dying .. picture Russian roullette with 100 chambers .. and one bullet.

Is that bridge safe to cross ? how about a 1 in 1000 chance ? how about 1 in 1 million chance.. .. math games that make you go hmmm

Now .. we are not talking death here although we are .. as there is also a risk of death from an SAR .. but most are not fatal .. death a very small percentage of the total and so I will completly reject it from the risk calculation.

What is an SAR - Severe Adverse Reaction - ... now crossing that bridge has a 1 in 100 chance of SAR ... is that safe ? For arguments sake .. let us assume that an SAR is something really bad .. so bad you don't want to go through it .. something leaving permanent scars and damage to your heart.. where at some pont you were at real risk .. and not hypothetical risk of death .. a "Fight for your life" so to speak in which some small percentage die .. maybe 0.125 :) I don't know the answer but know where i might find it

Most SAR's are myocharditis .. swelling in the liver tissue .. leaving scaring .. sometimes a heart attack .. another bad one is if the swelling happens in the brain .. stroke .. bad things. assume the definition includes a lengthy stay in the hospital .. not something you want to willingly take on.

Bridge .. 1 in 100 chance of SAR ? is it safe ? How about if its a bridge on your way to work - 200 days a year .. both ways so 400 crossing. is the bridge Safe ? knowing that one day this year you get to put the revolver to your head with 3 of the 4 chambers full ... and pull the trigger .. the lucky winner having a Severe Adverse Reaction ..

How about 1 in 1000 chance .. 3 of 40 chambers now full .. "Do ya feel lucky Punk" ?

Now .. as the smart calculater I know you are .. - will say but , I am not jabbing myself every day .. which is correct.. so lets factor that into the equation. How many times are you Jabbing per year .. lets go with 3... over 10 years = 30 Jabs.. each containing a 1 in 800 chance of SAR for the average person .. but sorry .. You are not the average person .. we are talking about your Son who is from 16-30 years in age .. healthy - has had covid so has natural immunity .. and thus will gain almost zero benefit from the vax if any .. in fact have a study somewhere .. oh yeah .. was the cleveland study .. says you should not Jab if you have natural immunity .. but even if you didn't the risk of harm from "Omnicron" to a fellow in this demographic is statistically zero .. if you thought 0.125% was low .. talking one in 5 million or some ridiculously high number .. keeping in mind the healthy part .. which is very important ... as all the stats you been hearing related to the really unhealthy segment of the population. but I have digressed.

Our subject .. a lad - 16-30 .. has a 300% greater risk of Myocharditis than the ave .. So now we are talking not 1 in 800 but 1 in 266 .. call it 1 in 300 to compensate for the fact that not all SAR's are Myo .. roughly 80% .. but you don't want the other stuff anyway .. "Brain swelling"

1 in 300 .. Jabbing 3 times a year for 10 years = 1 in 30 chance .. over 30 years 1 in 10 .. Jab for 90 years and its 1 in 3.

You tell me .. is that Safe ? and for the average person it is 1 in 9 ... still not really Safe from that perspective now is it.

but Wait .. surely someone has outlined where this Safty bar is for Vaccines .. and in fact ... happy day indeed they have done so .. and what is even better .. the metric used is SAR ... Severe Adverse Reaction.

The Swine Flu vax was taken off the market .. "Not safe enough" having an SAR of 1 in 100,000. The bar where there is universal acceptance would be 1 in 1 million .. so somewhere in between A and B is what the medical "do no harm" community has to say on the issue.

So when you take your 16 year old boy to the doctor .. a healthy lad .. beat covid once already .. said he had far worse flue's in the past - risk of harm "SAR" in the millions and the Doctor .. who gives you the stat I just mentioned .. as is their duty when offering any medical treatment .. and tells you the risk for your lad is 1 in 300 .. per Jab .. the recommended dosage is 6 Jabs a year cause the effect wanes quickly and thus after 10 years of this treatment .. will be a 1 in 5 chance of having major heart damage.

Is that Safe ? considering the vax is not doing anything for a healthy person .. because there is nothing to do .. healthy folks were not showing up at the hospital with Covid in any significant numbers .. never mind hitting the ICU and dying from Omicron. and in Omicron was a number of times less harmful to the healthy than the seasonal flue. and while I am not recommending the seasonal flue vax .. not for nor against .. I can tell you that the risk of an SAR from the flue shot is nowhere near 1-800 for the average soul.
That is a lot of words I am not going to read. Nothing personal, I am just not interested in your misguided justification. I have been dealing with this argument since COVID started and I don't have the patience for it anymore.
 

Sargonski

Well-Known Member
I did that for you a few weeks ago. You quoted it, but you didn't comment on my argument: Most recent cases and deaths of Covid-19 are unvaccinated.

And we have the results of a global controlled study. The control group was the unvaccinated. The two groups separated so early in the "study" that were it a formal study, it would have been terminated and written up prematurely for compassionate reasons.

Your analysis is incomplete. It seems to include only two parameters: infection rate and vaccine complication rate. You'd need to stratify that into infection rate, severe infection rate, death rate, long COVID rate, permanent organ damage rate, and other late term sequalae rates from virus and/or vaccine (remains to be seen) according to vaccination status. Oh, and you might want to factor in medical financial collapse rate and orphaning/loss of caretaker rates according to vaccination status as well.

You did no such thing ... and what a ridiculously false response .. since we are talking about Severe Adverse Reaction from the Vax. not about deaths from the unvaxed .. however this is a small part of the other side of the equation at some point so do feel free to tell us the risk of Death to a Healthy person from faving Covid Unvaxed. Then give the risk of an SAR .. so we can compare to 1 in 800 risk of SAR from the Vax.

You have given no such support for your bold claims .. We are in the adult room here .. = the numbers .. What is the risk of harm to a healthy person from facing covid unvaxes .. as opposed to the risk to a healthy vaxed person . Give both Death .. and SAR.

OH .. what ? your study doesn't give risk of harm for healthy people ? Oh No .. your Study doesn't actually consider healthy people .. as it is a study of the Immune compromized - morbidly obese - over 80 - 3 or more comorbidity crowd.

Lets go sparky ! .. lets have the number .. the Risk of harm you claimed to know .. that somehow you figure my claim was refuted by this figure.
and I didn't use infection rate .. why would you include that as a metric for risk of harm comparing vaxed to unvaxed ... as both are asssumed to have been infected. and what other metrics are you going to use other than Death and SAR ? .. No clue have you what you are talking about. .. Lets have the number .. risk of harm from faving the dreaded Omicron Unvaxed to a healthy person.
 

Sargonski

Well-Known Member
That is a lot of words I am not going to read. Nothing personal, I am just not interested in your misguided justification. I have been dealing with this argument since COVID started and I don't have the patience for it anymore.

Was a lot of calculations done for you.. Nothign personal if you could not understan the numbers .. Not understanding that a risk of severe life threatening event - nearly died - was in hospital for long time -- have scarring in heart with you for rest of life. of 1 in 30 .. is not safe .. is "nothing persona" .. problematic :) Nothing personal other than your claim that I am the misguided one .. 1 in 10 chance of an SAR .. for those Jabbing 3 times a year over 10 years is not "Safe" mate.
 

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
That is a lot of words I am not going to read. Nothing personal, I am just not interested in your misguided justification. I have been dealing with this argument since COVID started and I don't have the patience for it anymore.
The skinny version is that it's a question of risk vs benefit. Any risk is too high if there is no benefit.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
This is not about fear of vaccines in the past... because the mRNA products are not like vaccines of the past .. and thus should not be compared.
The claim "no significant Risk" with Covid vaccines looks to be quite false on the basis of the Phase III Clinical Trial Data which showed a risk of of a Severe Adverse Effect of 1 in 800 on average. Serious adverse events of special interest following mRNA COVID-19 vaccination in randomized trials in adults - PubMed

By what measure is 1 in 800 SAE not significant ? given the Swine Flue Vax was taken off the shelves due to an SAE of 1 in 100,000 .. being an ex Chemist .. this should be a relatively straight forward comparison of risk. The people running the vax campaign have huge amounts to gain personally.. so kind of missed the boat on that flawed assumption.

The "reducing severity of infection" claim is also problematic given numerous exceptionally good studies that show otherwise..

Hundreds of millions of people across the world have been vaccinated with these mRNA vaccines. There is no evidence of any level of harm from them that remotely compares with their benefits.
 
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