Supersessionism and beyond - Can Christianity meaningfully address religious pluralism?

[IndigoChild5559]

I must admit, I've always had great personal relations with Mormons and their open biblical canon has never bothered me.

We obviously have a set scriptural canon (defined at the Council of Trent) in Catholicism but we also have the unwritten oral tradition (which we believe comes from the Apostles) as an authority equal in status to Sacred Scripture; regarded as divinely inspired to the same degree as the Word of God (indeed as being it's oral dimension). This Sacred Tradition, moreover, makes progress in the life of the church through the handing down of the apostolic succession from age to age, from one bishop to another, under the primacy of the papal Magisterium, such that there is a constant growth in insight and understanding of the deposit of faith (the divine revelation).

On that account, the Mormon doctrine of divine revelation as a kind of ongoing process of enlightenment and advancement, with an expanding canon of revelations, doesn't freak me out in the way that it might do for - say - a sola scriptura Protestant.

Your remarks about cultural appropriation are very insightful, though.

I agree that it is mostly the Protestants, especially Evangelicals, that yell and scream. They persecute Mormons in the forums, calling the LDS a cult and stuff. It can get pretty nasty.

I find that Catholics through virtue of having a megalithic religious empire LOL don't get threatened much by others.

 

[Vouthon]

I find that Catholics through virtue of having a megalithic religious empire LOL don't get threatened much by others.

There are benefits, undoubtedly, to being the biggest kid in the playground

 

[Aupmanyav]

Were Adam, Noah and Abraham real characters? Although there is no historical evidence to establish they were real, they may well have been.

You do not stick exactly to what Zoroastrians, Jews, Christians, Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists believe, because you say that they have not preserved Allah's instructions correctly. Why do you believe in Adam, Noah, Abraham and Moses to have been Allah's manifestations? God of Abraham! How do you know that Adam, Noah and Abraham were worshiping the same Allah that you are worshiping now?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

How do you know that Adam, Noah and Abraham were worshiping the same Allah that you are worshiping now?

There is only One God, One Source, One Creator of the Universe. Call him by whatever name you wish. But you either worship God or you don't. It's not like there is some second God impersonating him.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

You do not stick exactly to what Zoroastrians, Jews, Christians, Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists believe, because you say that they have not preserved Allah's instructions correctly. Why do you believe in Adam, Noah, Abraham and Moses to have been Allah's manifestations? God of Abraham! How do you know that Adam, Noah and Abraham were worshiping the same Allah that you are worshiping now?

Allah is just the Arabic word for God, you know.

 

[Aupmanyav]

There are benefits, undoubtedly, to being the biggest kid in the playground

And we realize the frustration of being the smallest kid in the playground.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Allah is just the Arabic word for God, you know.

My question is how does anybody know that Abraham, if at all he was historical, was a theist and believed in God or Allah. He could have been a non-believer. In case of Adam and Noah, the stories are even more fictional with the banishment from garden of Eden and the Flood.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

My question is how does anybody know that Abraham, if at all he was historical, was a theist and believed in God or Allah. He could have been a non-believer. In case of Adam and Noah, the stories are even more fictional with the banishment from garden of Eden and the Flood.

Well, as with any sacred story, it's a matter of belief. I think taking it all literally is besides the point, though. I think it's more about the meaning of the narrative than anything else.

 

[Vouthon]

I agree that it is mostly the Protestants, especially Evangelicals, that yell and scream.

In my encounters down the years with some of the more fundamentalist of our Evangelical friends, I've been called quite the few things myself, despite being a fellow Trinitarian (and thus having, in theory, the same conception of God as they do).

The pope is the Antichrist and I'm part of his flock so ergo, I'm an idol worshipper (because our churches have statues, we believe in intercession of saints and venerate Mary the mother of Jesus), I've allowed God's Word to be perverted by the traditions of men because I don't believe in the authority of the "Bible alone" and of course I'm guilty of that "works of the law" thing because Catholics don't believe in sole fide (faith alone) and thus I'm trying to work my way to heaven with good works rather than just trusting in Jesus as Saviour, which is bad apparently etc. etc.

So, the Mormons have my full and abiding sympathy.

Right enough, I've met very friendly, polite and more open-minded Evangelicals as well - but their denomination, in my experience, does seem to have more than it's fair share of literalists for whatever reason.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Cultural misappropriation is more subtle an offense than the theft of land and breaking of treaties. Do you have halloween in New Zeeland? It would be like kids dressing up in the tribal regalia of the Maori as part of their fantasy play on Halloween.

Actually, although Christians want everyone to read their Bible, they want the world to think it is THEIR Bible. When another religion comes along like the Latter Day Saints, which adopts the Christian Bible, but adds another text, the Book of Mormon, to it, you better believe Christians yell and scream. Where I live, there are no Baha'is that I am aware of. If there were, Chrisitans would be offended at the treatment by Baha'i's of their Christian scriptures as well. We Jews sometimes say that God allowed Mormons to exist so that Christians would know how Jews feel. LOL

Some day, some new religion will come along, and adopt the Baha'i writings, but not with the understandings that you have, and they will pick and choose what parts they promote. Then you will understand.

The example of children wearing Maori costumes while going on Halloween is a good example. That would be disrespectful and inappropriate for certain.

The so called 'Christian Bible' is made up of the Hebrew Bible and New Testament. So the language is inappropriate. It would be best to simple call it the Bible or something else that represents that it is essentially two main collections of works. Calling the Hebrew Bible, the Old Testament seems very disrespectful and so I would refer to that section as the Hebrew Bible to avoid any OLD/NEW contrast with the New Testament and to indicate a distinct Jewish authorship. I agree it would be more respectful if the Christian Bible only had the New Testament. Do you have any other suggestions for the naming of the Hebrew Bible or Tanach part of the Bible?

The Baha'is haven't composed a book where we add the Hebrew Bible, New Testament and the Baha'i Writings together. We simply have our own scriptures based on the Writings of the Bab and Baha'u'llah. So we haven't co-opted anyone's scriptures and claimed them as our own. We do however believe the Torah, Gospel and Quran are all Revelations from the same God who Revealed Himself through the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

There would be a major problem if Christians claimed authorship of the Hebrew Bible, but its usually clear the names and authorship of each book. If someone wants to create a book with selected writings from the worlds religions, I can't see a problem with the inclusion of Baha'i Writings as long as the source is acknowledged.

 

[Dawnofhope]

You do not stick exactly to what Zoroastrians, Jews, Christians, Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists believe, because you say that they have not preserved Allah's instructions correctly. Why do you believe in Adam, Noah, Abraham and Moses to have been Allah's manifestations? God of Abraham! How do you know that Adam, Noah and Abraham were worshiping the same Allah that you are worshiping now?

When discussing any of the world religions there is considerable diversity. A Baha'i worldview fits well when considering the diverse range of Christian perspectives. An obvious difference is the interpretation of prophecy about future Messiahs/Christs. Having belief in the same set of scriptures is an important starting point.

Baha'is believe Adam, Noah and Abraham worshipped the same God the Jews and Christians worship.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I personally think that Christ was quite clear when he proclaimed that no one comes to the Father but by him. (John 14:6) In Christianity, Jesus, the God-man, is the sole mediator between God and humanity and Christianity is believed to contain the fullness of truth. There is no other mechanism for salvation. There are some nuances, however. Non-Christians don't necessarily have to be dammed automatically in that view. One can be judged by the level of knowledge one had and whether they went out of their way to reject Christ. It's also acceptable to recognize that all religions have at least some truth in them, as one view is that this would be a reflection of humans being made in the image of God and so their hearts desire him, whether consciously or not. So what truths exist in the other religions stem from the heart of humanity and its striving for the Divine. Either way, one can certainly pray that all may be saved. There is that view that God shows his mercy on those whom he will.

I also don't think that Christianity needs to go out of it's way to water down its traditional theology to make it more palatable to the modern world, when that's obviously not going to keep the people in the pews in the first place.

There are diverse understandings of John 14:6 but obviously some Christians see it in the very exclusive manner you suggest. Those same Christians wouldn't see any need to adjust or change for sure.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Baha'is believe Adam, Noah and Abraham worshipped the same God the Jews and Christians worship.

As with all other things in Bahai religion, no proof, no evidence, just belief, belief and belief, based on what a 19th Century Iranian preacher, his son and great grandson said.

 

[CG Didymus]

But Abraham and Noah and such get only a "perhaps"? Just wondering why. Or did you mean it in the same sense?

I'm the one that keeps bringing it up to Baha'is. They make Adam, Noah, Abraham and Moses "manifestations" of God. Part of the definition of a manifestation is that they are "perfectly" polished mirrors reflecting God. They are also something greater than a regular human. I keep harping on Baha'is about that, because I've never heard any Jew make any of these people more than ordinary men that overcame their own shortcomings and trusted God the best they could.

However, the Baha'is don't believe the stories about any of these man are literally true. And, I think their prophet has alternative stories about some of them. Possibly coming from Islamic stories. I'm not sure. One glaring one for me is that they say Ishmael, not Isaac, was taken to be sacrificed. Anyway, I always tell them, if the Bible stories didn't literally happen, then, I think it is very likely, the people and the stories about them are mythological. So, it's not coming from Adrian. He's just trying to answer me the best he can.

 

[CG Didymus]

Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary

What do Baha'is mean by this? 'Cause I'm sure it is not what Catholics mean by it. "The Immaculate Conception is a dogma of the Roman Catholic Church which states that the Virgin Mary was free of original sin from the moment of her conception..."

 

[Dawnofhope]

What do Baha'is mean by this? 'Cause I'm sure it is not what Catholics mean by it. "The Immaculate Conception is a dogma of the Roman Catholic Church which states that the Virgin Mary was free of original sin from the moment of her conception..."

Immaculate conception for Baha'is means a conception that is immaculate (in this instance virginal), not the doctrine of immaculate conception as espoused by the Catholic Church. The word immaculate means spotless, clean or perfect.

Definition of IMMACULATE

Baha'is believe Mary was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus. We don't believe in the doctrine of 'original sin' as the Catholics do. We do however see Mary as being an outstanding woman of the Christian dispensation.

 

[Dawnofhope]

As with all other things in Bahai religion, no proof, no evidence, just belief, belief and belief, based on what a 19th Century Iranian preacher, his son and great grandson said.

No one would seriously argue evidence exists for the historicity of Adam, Noah or Abraham. However there's certainly evidence in regards the historicity of Krishna, Zoroaster, Buddha, Jesus and Muhammad.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

There are diverse understandings of John 14:6 but obviously some Christians see it in the very exclusive manner you suggest. Those same Christians wouldn't see any need to adjust or change for sure.

Yes, but that doesn't mean we can't still be charitable towards each other while disagreeing.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Yes, but that doesn't mean we can't still be charitable towards each other while disagreeing.

Welcome back to the Christian fold.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Welcome back to the Christian fold.

Thanks. It's been nagging at me for awhile.