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Supersessionism and beyond - Can Christianity meaningfully address religious pluralism?

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
@adrian009 Further to the above, an important document - which I think illustrates how far we've come away from "supersessionism" since the Second Vatican Council in the 1960s - was published by Pope Francis's Vatican in 2015:


“The gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable” (Rom 11:29) - A reflection on theological questions pertaining to Catholic-Jewish relations (10 December 2015)



The Scriptures of ancient Israel constitute an integral part of the Scriptures of both Judaism and Christianity, understood by both as the word of God, revelation, and salvation history. The first Christians were Jews; as a matter of course they gathered as part of the community in the Synagogue, they observed the dietary laws, the Sabbath and the requirement of circumcision, while at the same time confessing Jesus as the Christ, the Messiah sent by God for the salvation of Israel and the entire human race.

With Paul the ‘Jewish Jesus movement’ definitively opens up other horizons and transcends its purely Jewish origins. Gradually his concept came to prevail, that is, that a non-Jew did not have to become first a Jew in order to confess Christ. In the early years of the Church, therefore, there were the so-called Jewish Christians and the Gentile Christians, the ecclesia ex circumcisione and the ecclesia ex gentibus, one Church originating from Judaism, the other from the Gentiles, who however together constituted the one and only Church of Jesus Christ....

....the so-called replacement theory or supersessionism steadily gained favour until in the Middle Ages it represented the standard theological foundation of the relationship with Judaism: the promises and commitments of God would no longer apply to Israel because it had not recognised Jesus as the Messiah and the Son of God, but had been transferred to the Church of Jesus Christ which was now the true ‘new Israel’, the new chosen people of God. Arising from the same soil, Judaism and Christianity in the centuries after their separation became involved in a theological antagonism which was only to be defused at the Second Vatican Council. With its Declaration "Nostra aetate" (No.4) the Church unequivocally professes, within a new theological framework, the Jewish roots of Christianity.

A replacement or supersession theology which sets against one another two separate entities, a Church of the Gentiles and the rejected Synagogue whose place it takes, is deprived of its foundations. From an originally close relationship between Judaism and Christianity a long-term state of tension had developed, which has been gradually transformed after the Second Vatican Council into a constructive dialogue relationship.

24. God revealed himself in his Word, so that it may be understood by humanity in actual historical situations. This Word invites all people to respond. If their responses are in accord with the Word of God they stand in right relationship with him. For Jews this Word can be learned through the Torah and the traditions based on it. The Torah is the instruction for a successful life in right relationship with God. Whoever observes the Torah has life in its fullness (cf. Pirqe Avot II, 7). By observing the Torah the Jew receives a share in communion with God. In this regard, Pope Francis has stated: "The Christian confessions find their unity in Christ; Judaism finds its unity in the Torah. Christians believe that Jesus Christ is the Word of God made flesh in the world; for Jews the Word of God is present above all in the Torah. Both faith traditions find their foundation in the One God, the God of the Covenant, who reveals himself through his Word. In seeking a right attitude towards God, Christians turn to Christ as the fount of new life, and Jews to the teaching of the Torah." (Address to members of the International Council of Christians and Jews, 30 June 2015).

25. Judaism and the Christian faith as seen in the New Testament are two ways by which God’s people can make the Sacred Scriptures of Israel their own. The Scriptures which Christians call the Old Testament is open therefore to both ways. A response to God’s word of salvation that accords with one or the other tradition can thus open up access to God, even if it is left up to his counsel of salvation to determine in what way he may intend to save mankind in each instance.

27. The covenant that God has offered Israel is irrevocable. "God is not man, that he should lie" (Num 23:19; cf. 2 Tim 2:13). The permanent elective fidelity of God expressed in earlier covenants is never repudiated (cf. Rom 9:4; 11:1–2).

The New Covenant can never replace the Old but presupposes it....

Since the Sadducees who were bound to the temple did not survive this catastrophe [of the fall of the Temple in 70 CE], the rabbis, following in the footsteps of the Pharisees, who had already developed their particular mode of reading and interpreting Scripture, now did so without the temple as the centre of Jewish religious devotion.

31. As a consequence there were two responses to this situation, or more precisely, two new ways of reading Scripture, namely the Christological exegesis of the Christians and the rabbinical exegesis of that form of Judaism that developed historically...

The document of the Pontifical Biblical Commission "The Jewish People and Their Sacred Scriptures in the Christian Bible" in 2001 therefore stated that Christians can and must admit "that the Jewish reading of the Bible is a possible one, in continuity with the Jewish Scriptures from the Second Temple period, a reading analogous to the Christian reading which developed in parallel fashion". It then draws the conclusion: "Both readings are bound up with the vision of their respective faiths, of which the readings are the result and expression. Consequently, both are irreducible" (No. 22)...

In concrete terms this means that the Catholic Church neither conducts nor supports any specific institutional mission work directed towards Jews.

Among other things, like sternly condemning (again) replacement theology, it clearly states - approvingly citing a 2001 Pontifical Biblical Commission - that Christians must admit that the Rabbinic Judaism of the Talmud represents a valid and historically consistent reading of the Old Testament, "in continuity with the Jewish Scriptures from the Second Temple period, a reading analogous to the Christian reading which developed in parallel fashion" and that the "Catholic Church neither conducts nor supports any specific institutional mission work directed towards Jews", which is a repudiation of active conversion of Jews.

A supersessionist interpretation of Christianity could never have recognised the co-validity of Rabbinic exegesis with the Christian understanding of the Bible or indeed condemned all institutional missionary endeavours towards Jews.

Until about 1960, prayers at Catholic Masses on Good Friday - the solemn day commemorating the death of Jesus - called for the conversion of Jews and it read as follows:


Let us pray also for the faithless Jews: that almighty God may remove the veil from their hearts; so that they too may acknowledge Jesus Christ our Lord. Let us pray. Let us kneel.


This prayer had remained the same since the Middle Ages in the Roman Rite and it reflects the high medieval (circa. 12th century) supersessionist theology from which it was begotten, which is discordant with modern values and patently offensive to Jews.

That prayer was, however, eliminated from general use after the 1962-1965 Second Vatican Council by Pope St. John XXIII who introduced a new missal for use at Masses, with a new prayer eventually written in 1970, which reads:


Let us pray also for the Jewish people, to whom the Lord our God spoke first, that he may grant them to advance in love of his name and in faithfulness to his covenant. (Prayer in silence. Then the Priest says:) Almighty ever-living God, who bestowed your promises on Abraham and his descendants, hear graciously the prayers of your Church, that the people you first made your own may attain the fullness of redemption.


As you can see: no reference to Jews as "faithless", no beseeching of God to rend the "veil from their hearts" that they may acknowledge Jesus as Messiah. Rather, a prayer that Jews may 'advance in love of HaShem' and in faithfulness to the Torah, with only an oblique reference to the "fullness of redemption" without specifying that this is to be found in Christianity. In his interview with Peter Seewald back in 2005, then Pope Benedict XVI stated that, with reference to the post-Vatican II liturgy, "we do not pray directly for the conversion of the Jews in a missionary sense, but that the Lord might hasten the historic hour in which we will all be united" which is a reference to the statement in Vatican II's Nostra Aestate (1965) citing the prophet Zephaniah from the Nevi'im: "the Church awaits that day, known to God alone, on which all peoples will address the Lord in a single voice and "serve him shoulder to shoulder" (Zephaniah 3:9)", this verse:

Zephaniah 3:9: “For then I shall turn to the peoples a pure tongue that all shall call upon the Name of G‑d to serve Him with one consent.”

Without comment as to what that actually means, so as to admit of both the (different) Jewish and Christian interpretations.

This is a demonstration, liturgically in the actual public recital and ritual of the Mass, of the 'replacement' of supersessionist/replacement theology with a more inclusive reading that leaves sufficient ambiguity to respectfully accomodate the divergent religious perspectives of Jews and Christians, whilst emphasising a shared anticipation of a future Messianic Age in which all human beings will be, in some sense known only to God, united.

So in sum, I regard supersessionism as an ideology that is fundamentally irreconcilable with true interreligious dialogue, as it presupposes a religious 'superiority complex'. It thus had to be overcome for a more productive relationship to begin and thanks be to God, I'd say it has been overcome in my church courtesy of the Second Vatican Council.
 
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CG Didymus

Veteran Member
The title of this thread should be: "How can Baha'i supercede the intolerant superceders and remain peaceful and loving?"
Perhaps they should take lessons from the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Latter-day-Saints of Jesus Christ. The JWs and the LDS seem to have it down to a fine art.

From the link about "Fellowship"...
Mr. Wallace: “How do you view non-Mormons?”

President Hinckley: “With love and respect. I have many non-Mormon friends. I respect them. I have the greatest of admiration for them.”

Mr. Wallace: “Despite the fact that they haven’t really seen the light yet?”

President Hinckley: “Yes. To anybody who is not of this Church, I say we recognize all of the virtues and the good that you have. Bring it with you and see if we might add to it.”4
If I didn't know who was saying this, I would have thought it would have been a Baha'i. Maybe even Abdul Baha. But it was a Mormon? A liberal minded person in any religion, including the Baha'is, would probably agree with this attitude. Conservative/Fundamentalists? Forget about it.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
1/ So can Christianity meaningfully embrace religious pluralism?
Depends what you mean.

If you mean "Can you live with people who believe differently?" The answer is a resounding "Yes". Coming to Jesus is a free will / no pressure response to His love.

If you mean, "Will Christianity accept that there are many paths?" I don't think there is ANY religion that believes any faith is good. If Christianity believes "Jesus is the only way", by the nature of that statement, every religion that doesn't agree with that statement will not embrace that statement
2/ To what extent do doctrines such as supersessionism prevent this movement.

Depends on your definition

3/ If you are a Christian what direction would you like to see Christianity move and why?

Direction is simply more of Isaiah 58:6... loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?

As we preach Jesus, of course :D But given regardless of the response to Jesus
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Baha'i-like? Good luck promoting that thought.
https://www.quora.com/Does-ecumenism-extend-to-Mormons
Baha'i-like in theory. I have seen liberal Baha'is actually live it. The conservative side of the Baha'i Faith believes all the major religions got off track and have lost the true meaning of their messengers words... or even changed them. Apparently, somewhere, there is the "true" teachings of the Buddha that say there is only one God. Where did they go?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
If you mean "Can you live with people who believe differently?" The answer is a resounding "Yes". Coming to Jesus is a free will / no pressure response to His love.
But some Christians are taught to go out and "preach" the good news that Jesus died for their sins. No pressure... just if they turn away there will be hell to pay.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Bahai religion... seems to accept all religions but at the same time rejects all in reality.

I recommend you reread the OP and answer the questions rather than launch an off topic tirade against the Baha’i Faith.
The answer is the Baha'is Faith... if it is true. If the Christians only realized that Christ has already come back, and follow him and his teachings, the problem would be solved.

One of the main opponents to believing that Baha'u'llah is Christ returned is those conservative, Bible-believing Christians. The only reason they put up with us is that they know that their Jesus is coming back soon and going to get rid of all the people that don't believe in him. In the mean time, some of those Christians are doing their best to show us the errors of our ways. They don't want to tolerate what other people believe. They are forced to by the separation of church and state secular government.

So, if the Baha'i Faith is the truth, what is their answer? And, from what I have gathered, it sounds like people should not take their Scriptures so literally and see the Truth in all religions.
 

Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
Baha'i-like in theory. I have seen liberal Baha'is actually live it. The conservative side of the Baha'i Faith believes all the major religions got off track and have lost the true meaning of their messengers words... or even changed them.
  • A biological Jew can believe in any number of false things, and even be an atheist, but he/she will always be a Jew.
  • A non-Jew can believe in any number of false things, and even be an atheist, but he/she will be a non-Jew unless and until he/she converts, in which case he/she is limited in the number of false things that he/she can believe and still be deemed a Jew.
    • If the non-Jew claims to be a Christian, he/she can believe in any number of false things, and even be an atheist, and still claim to be a Christian.
    • And a non-Jew can even claim to be a Messianic Christian without ever having converted to Judaism.
  • What's a Baha'i? A humanist in sheepskin, IMO. True humanists have more integrity and credibility.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
But some Christians are taught to go out and "preach" the good news that Jesus died for their sins. No pressure... just if they turn away there will be hell to pay.
Yes, there is always a religious person in any bunch. :) I'm not sure that is the message that Jesus taught, though.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
  • A biological Jew can believe in any number of false things, and even be an atheist, but he/she will always be a Jew.
  • A non-Jew can believe in any number of false things, and even be an atheist, but he/she will be a non-Jew unless and until he/she converts, in which case he/she is limited in the number of false things that he/she can believe and still be deemed a Jew.
    • If the non-Jew claims to be a Christian, he/she can believe in any number of false things, and even be an atheist, and still claim to be a Christian.
    • And a non-Jew can even claim to be a Messianic Christian without ever having converted to Judaism.
  • What's a Baha'i? A humanist in sheepskin, IMO. True humanists have more integrity and credibility.
Maybe some are kind of like humanists, but it is a religion. And people are expected to believe that their prophet is the return of Christ. And what he said is the Word of God. The Baha'i I hung out with were not strict about their religious beliefs. They could easily, and more honestly, say that they accept and respect the beliefs of others.

Hard-core Baha'is, very similar to staunch Christians, put their beliefs above the beliefs of people in the other religions. Those Baha'is essentially believe that those people's beliefs are wrong. At best, they say that "originally" all major religions taught very similar things... like there being only one God. But those teachings are lost, and the Scriptures they have now, they misinterpret. The Baha'is typically will say that people take their Scriptures too literal when they were meant to be symbolic.

So yes, I agree. There is a problem with integrity and credibility. Which is what Aupmanyav was saying also. So is the problem just with conservative Christian, or with all religions that believe theirs is best or better because it's newer? Ultimately, that person in that religion will deep down think that their beliefs are superior than those of others.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Yes, there is always a religious person in any bunch. :) I'm not sure that is the message that Jesus taught, though.
Yes, that's the issue. Some Christians put the "Golden Rule" ahead of getting all concerned about what other people believe. They are way more tolerant. But, I can also see why Fundamentalist Christians do what they do. As far as I can tell, the Bible teaches that Jesus is the only way and without him a person is lost. So can a Christian be accepting and tolerant of people in the other religions? Because at some point the Christian, it would seem, would have to accept that maybe those people are also on a true spiritual path.
 

Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
And people are expected to believe that their prophet is the return of Christ.
Not just the return of Jesus Christ.
Bahá'í Reference Library - God Passes By, Pages 89-103
  • The circumstances in which the Vehicle of this newborn Revelation, following with such swiftness that of the Báb, received the first intimations of His sublime mission recall, and indeed surpass in poignancy the soul-shaking experience of Moses when confronted by the Burning Bush in the wilderness of Sinai; of Zoroaster when awakened to His mission by a succession of seven visions; of Jesus when coming out of the waters of the Jordan He saw the heavens opened and the Holy Ghost descend like a dove and light upon Him; of Muḥammad when in the Cave of Hira, outside of the holy city of Mecca, the voice of Gabriel bade Him “cry in the name of Thy Lord”; and of the Báb when in a dream He approached the bleeding head of the Imám Ḥusayn, and, quaffing the blood that dripped from his lacerated throat, awoke to find Himself the chosen recipient of the outpouring grace of the Almighty.
  • To Israel He was neither more nor less than the incarnation of the “Everlasting Father,” the “Lord of Hosts” come down “with ten thousands of saints”;
  • to Christendom Christ returned “in the glory of the Father,”
  • to Shí’ah Islám the return of the Imám Ḥusayn;
  • to Sunní Islám the descent of the “Spirit of God” (Jesus Christ);
  • to the Zoroastrians the promised Sháh-Bahrám;
  • to the Hindus the reincarnation of Krishna;
  • to the Buddhists the fifth Buddha.
You want to believe that the Baha'ulla was:
  • greater than the One who appeared to Moses in the Burning Bush;
  • the incarnation of God the Father Everlasting and Yahweh Sabaoth (the Lord of Hosts);
  • the reincarnation of Jesus Christ;
  • the reincarnation of the Imam Husayn;
  • the incarnation of the Holy Spirit;
  • the Zoroastrian-promised Shah-Bahram;
  • the reincarnation of Krishna; and
  • the fifth Buddha?
Knock yourself out. Not me.
If you don't want to believe that, fine. Don't.
But don't imagine that you can make sense of the Baha'i claims regarding the Baha'ullah, when the Baha'i themselves can't.
They could easily, and more honestly, say that they accept and respect the beliefs of others.
Accept? What are you talking about?
I believe X is true.
You come along and assure me that you accept my belief and then tell me that I have misinterpreted X; and therefore believe X is true when X is just a metaphor for Y. And then you try to persuade bystanders that you've just "respected" me, by correcting me and trying to persuade me that X is a metaphor and that I really should believe Y is true. And to top it all off, when I tell you: the hell I will, you whine that my prophets predicted that I would reject the truth thereby further confirming that Y is true.
LOL!
You want help to build a house? Not a problem. I'm beyond the age of being a useful helper, but I know some guys that I can pay to help you.
Your wife and kids need food? Let me check in my kitchen and see what I can offer, or check my wallet to see what I can offer you.
Someone is oppressing you or trying to mug you? Just a second, I'll call the cops, get a stick, and come to your aid.
What I can do for you, I'm not ashamed or afraid to do. But I'm not going to bull**** you while doing it by trying to tell you that I "accept and respect your beliefs" when I don't.
Being a decent and helpful human being doesn't oblige me to bull**** you.
 
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CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Not just the return of Jesus Christ.
Bahá'í Reference Library - God Passes By, Pages 89-103
  • The circumstances in which the Vehicle of this newborn Revelation, following with such swiftness that of the Báb, received the first intimations of His sublime mission recall, and indeed surpass in poignancy the soul-shaking experience of Moses when confronted by the Burning Bush in the wilderness of Sinai; of Zoroaster when awakened to His mission by a succession of seven visions; of Jesus when coming out of the waters of the Jordan He saw the heavens opened and the Holy Ghost descend like a dove and light upon Him; of Muḥammad when in the Cave of Hira, outside of the holy city of Mecca, the voice of Gabriel bade Him “cry in the name of Thy Lord”; and of the Báb when in a dream He approached the bleeding head of the Imám Ḥusayn, and, quaffing the blood that dripped from his lacerated throat, awoke to find Himself the chosen recipient of the outpouring grace of the Almighty.
  • To Israel He was neither more nor less than the incarnation of the “Everlasting Father,” the “Lord of Hosts” come down “with ten thousands of saints”;
  • to Christendom Christ returned “in the glory of the Father,”
  • to Shí’ah Islám the return of the Imám Ḥusayn;
  • to Sunní Islám the descent of the “Spirit of God” (Jesus Christ);
  • to the Zoroastrians the promised Sháh-Bahrám;
  • to the Hindus the reincarnation of Krishna;
  • to the Buddhists the fifth Buddha.
You want to believe that the Baha'ulla was:
  • greater than the One who appeared to Moses in the Burning Bush;
  • the incarnation of God the Father Everlasting and Yahweh Sabaoth (the Lord of Hosts);
  • the reincarnation of Jesus Christ;
  • the reincarnation of the Imam Husayn;
  • the incarnation of the Holy Spirit;
  • the Zoroastrian-promised Shah-Bahram;
  • the reincarnation of Krishna; and
  • the fifth Buddha?
Knock yourself out. Not me.
If you don't want to believe that, fine. Don't.
But don't imagine that you can make sense of the Baha'i claims regarding the Baha'ullah, when the Baha'i themselves can't.

Accept? What are you talking about?
I believe X is true.
You come along and assure me that you accept my belief and then tell me that I have misinterpreted X; and therefore believe X is true when X is just a metaphor for Y. And then you try to persuade bystanders that you've just "respected" me, by correcting me and trying to persuade me that X is a metaphor and that I really should believe Y is true. And to top it all off, when I tell you: the hell I will, you whine that my prophets predicted that I would reject the truth thereby further confirming that Y is true.
LOL!
You want help to build a house? Not a problem. I'm beyond the age of being a useful helper, but I know some guys that I can pay to help you.
Your wife and kids need food? Let me check in my kitchen and see what I can offer, or check my wallet to see what I can offer you.
Someone is oppressing you or trying to mug you? Just a second, I'll call the cops, get a stick, and come to your aid.
What I can do for you, I'm not ashamed or afraid to do. But I'm not going to bull**** you while doing it by trying to tell you that I "accept and respect your beliefs" when I don't.
Being a decent and helpful human being doesn't oblige me to bull**** you.
The Baha'is I was friends with in the early 70's were very liberal. There were hippies that believed in the peace, love and unity part of the Baha'i Faith. You know how it goes. They were told that all people and all religions are one. And, they joined. Now I know how little they really knew of the Baha'i Faith when they signed a declaration card that said they believed in Baha'u'llah.

Your analogy of the X's and Y's is right on. That is exactly what is happening. So which is worse... for a religion to come right out and say they don't believe the other religions are true? Or, one that says that they are true, but not in how their followers believe them to be true? Can either one bring all the people of the world together in peace and harmony? Or, is the best we can hope for is to just tolerate each other and the religions we believe in?
 

Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
Can either one bring all the people of the world together in peace and harmony?
From where I sit, looks like CV-19 is far more effective.
So which is worse... for a religion to come right out and say they don't believe the other religions are true?
As long as there's no human obligation to agree, I say "yes". Leave the atheists in charge of keeping the peace. It's a humbling experience when somebody tells you: "I have no clue what you're talking about, but you're going to jail until you promise to behave yourself."
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Maybe it's the Kjv 1611 but I don't know how you can separate the salvation/ condemnation message throughout the NT from Christianity.

Are the other Bible versions so drastically different?

I don't know how people can be more accepting and universal to all religions and still be Christian. When the Bible says, 'Broad is the path to destruction, and narrow is the gate to life, and few who enter into it' , that is a far cry from a unified humanity.

I may have a language impediment with the Bible. If you take just the sweet words, and leave out the demanding parts of it, you might end up with something totally different.

Then again, if I am correct, Baha'i religion only takes the inclusive statements out of all other religions, and they take only the most inspiring verses out of them.

Am I missing something?

If Baha'i considers all religions fallible or only pertinent to the times they lived in, then maybe they glean something totally different then what I am thinking.

Most Baha’is who have studied both the Baha’i writings and Christianity would accept the Bible in its entirety. However it needs to be understood within a cultural historical framework. There is much in the Bible that Baha’is would not take literally and we would see many laws as belonging to a bygone era. The Bible requires careful studying and reflection over months to years to understand it properly. Unfortunately many Christians don’t invest the time required. The result is taking too much of it literally or out of context IMHO. Christians who don’t understand the Bible or live by its essential teachings can be a huge turn off for both Christianity as a whole and the Bible. I’m sure its a major reason for so many leaving Christianity.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Why have you picked up on Christianity and not included Judaism or Islam in your topic? True, they deny even the existence of other religions. But I think Bahai religion is most insideous of all. It seems to accept all religions but at the same time rejects all in reality. At least Christianity and Islam accept to be adversaris. Bahais knife other religions even when claiming to be friends.

Christianity is meaningfully accepting all other religions wherever it exists, take for example your own country. Are there not people of religions other than Christianity? Are they discriminated against? Are they suppressed? Does New Zealand not have citizens belonging to faiths other than Christianity? Are they not allowed to vote? Can they not apply for government positions? Are they taxed more than the Christian citizens? Tell me how can New Zealand accept other religions 'more meaningfully'? I am surprised that of all religions, you pick Christianity to blame!

And what do you mean by your last sentence? That is very subjective. What would you consider to be 'a constructive comment' and which one you would reject as being not? Let me see whether you take my post as constructive or destructive! I know Bahais are very fun-loving people. :D

What can I say? My entire life has depended on the goodwill of others. I have come across so many beautiful people in life that I cannot honestly exalt one over the other or say a Baha’i is any better than any of them for they are all wonderful people.

I live in a Christian country and am very well looked after in times of need. But I am also protected by laws that originally may have come from Judaism so rule of law and generosity are qualities of my society which I believe have been influenced by the East and also Hinduism as in non violence. And to my knowledge science and universities were a predominant feature of Islam and there are many sciences we use in our society which come from the Arabs. As our society is multi-cultural we have experienced the best of many Faiths, nations and races and been very enriched by the diversity they bring.

There is a Hindu Indian friend who is the wife of a doctor here. We know her through some wonderful Christian friends. The other week when it was absolutely pouring rain she rang. She said she was outside our home to drop a parcel off for us. Milo, all sorts of food and on every box and can written “lots of love”. She loves serving the community and during the virus she is doing such beautiful things. When those Christians lived here they painted my door! Nothing asked in return just wanted to be loving and kind.

Which leads me to believe that a new spirit of loving tolerance towards all diversity is emerging which I’m finding exhilarating.

I still find myself asking myself why are these people both Christian and Hindu loving us and accepting us when we are a different Faith? I was brought up that other Faiths were not to go near but that was over 60 years ago. How times have changed and how wonderfully welcoming I have found other religionists become. Even the catholic priest here we are friends and we went to an all Indian pot luck dinner but my Indian friends said I had been invited because they considered me an Indian as well although we joked I’d need to put a lot of tanning cream on to pass as one.

I always wished that all the good people in the world got together to make this world really work for everyone. That all have food, clothing and shelter and medicines. I think the world is lacking a just system as the poor just get poorer and suffer more. Even my family in Burma. No Medicare so illness means paying upfront or no treatment. A family of 20 struggle daily to put food on the table while the military have unlimited resources and funds. Undoubtedly world peace could free military funds to give such people more comfort and ease? So much is spent on mistrust between nations that if removed could be used to help the poor and needy.

But getting that peace means creating trust and confidence between countries, races and religions not an easy task but once accomplished can release trillions$ for the assistance of people instead of imaginary conflicts.

I think that’s the real stakes are here. Peace will remove an extraordinary burden from the poor and needy. But how many can relate a struggling family in a village in Burma to the lack of world peace due to exorbitant funds invested in military expenditure ? Until we see the connection we won’t care much about peace which is sad because charities are not the answer. I believe a just system which puts people first is the answer.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
I grew up in a coastal town of Los Angeles. We had about a zillion people. But our high school had zero Blacks and maybe a quarter Hispanics. And I don't remember one Asian. There must have been some, but I don't remember any. This was the early 60's and there was still segregation. Each group had its area of Los Angeles. Our high school had one English teacher that was Black. And that was it. Nobody knew how to act around her.

The late 60's brought all that down. Music had a lot to do with it. It's still happening today. I work in construction and the young guys, White, Brown, or Black, listen to rap and hip hop. They have a special handshake and language and all kind of dress alike.

Its excellent to hear how we have all grown up through different backgrounds and to consider the profound influence our formative years play in seeing the world. It affects the lens through which we view our world.

New Zealand has close ties with Asia and the Pacific. My wife is half Asian, half European. Many of the people I studied with and worked alongside in medicine are from different cultures, ethnicities and religions. But I love American culture too, especially the African-American music.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
I always wished that all the good people in the world got together to make this world really work for everyone.
I have nothing against that. My only problem is when you say on my face that Krishna is not a God and he is just a minion of the Abrahamic Allah. If you have such a belief, keep it to yourself. At least be civil. Remember the love shown to you by the Hindu couple.

Secondly, as you know my Hinduism is atheistic, so to me the talk about the Abrahamic God or the minions supposed to have been dispatched by him from time to time to create warring religions in the world bringing destruction and pain to humans is not even interesting fiction. Lastly you have roped in Buddha and Buddhists who too do not believe in existence of any God or Allah. I know most religious beliefs are false but you have overdone it.
 
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Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
To my mind, pluralistic Christianity did not need to be 'invented' or 'pionereed' at Vatican II. The rudiments of it already preexisted from the beginning, on the 'statutebooks' so to speak, in the foundational literature of the Church Fathers themselves. If one returned to the original sources which Catholics already regarded as authoritative (written witnesses to oral divine revelation equivalent in authority to Sacred Scripture), 'before' Christianity became the dominant hegemonic ideology of the later middle ages, theological pluralism and interreligious theology was right there at the origins of the religion.

I couldn’t agree more. Christianity was never intended to be an exclusive religion as your thoughtful and thorough exposition clearly highlights. It is heartening to read your contributions to this thread and I feel a real connectedness to Catholicism and the history of Western Civilisation through everything you have shared.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
"Hate" crimes keep happening, so policies don't stop them. Especially if the people doing them believe they are doing the will of God.

The Baha’i International Community have a great deal to say on this theme.

Fortunately, the contemporary phenomenon of religious fanaticism does not, in our view, signal the dawn of a new era of religious strife. Instead, we believe that it represents the dying convulsions of doctrines and societies which have openly defied the altruistic teachings of their own faiths.

We believe that all men and women of good will can contribute towards hastening the end of religious fanaticism. They can do this, first, by living up to the high ideals of love, unity and tolerance that lie at the center of their own religions or beliefs. …everyone must be taught to respect the beliefs of others so that they will not merely tolerate, but positively respect, those who hold different beliefs. …Baha’i communities around the world are already implementing educational programs along these lines as their contribution to eliminating fanaticism under any guise and to implementing the principle of unity among peoples of every faith and belief. They will persevere in their efforts until the fire of religious fanaticism and hatred is finally extinguished. –

Baha’i International Community, March 1987, Eliminating Religious Intolerance.

Terrorism and Religious Fanaticism

 
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