firedragon
Veteran Member
That's so sweet of you RS. Thank you so much. It's nice to meet our senior guns who through interaction sometimes become quite close. Great to speak to you.
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Sunnism, Deobandi, Sufism, Shia twelver, Shia ismaillies, Ibadism, Quranism
- Thread starter Starlight
- Start date
Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
You are not talking of people not following Qur'anic religious law.
For instance there is no law in the Qur'an for stoning an adulterer.
2. The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication -- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.
(The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali tr), Surah 24)
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
I'm not familiar with the Quran itself but here's a source from those who are.
Stoning in Islamic Law
firedragon
Veteran Member
Exactly.
Now obviously you will google something like "I am desperate, I wanna insult Islam, google please give me some resources to satisfy my confirmation bias".
Mate. I was talking about the Qur'an. You just rambled on with some throwaway kneejerk whataboutary comments showing your epistemic irresponsibility.
Be more responsible.
Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
Stoning to death (رجم Rajm), according to traditional interpretations of Islamic law, is a punishment for married adulterers as well as certain other unlawful sexual relations including homosexual relationships, and is one example of abrogation (naskh) being applied to Qur'anic text (which specifies lashing as the punishment for unlawful sexual relations, but was interpreted as applying to unmarried fornicators).I'm not familiar with the Quran itself but here's a source from those who are.
Stoning in Islamic Law
wikiislam.net
Narrated Ibn 'Umar: A Jew and a Jewess were brought to Allah's Apostle on a charge of committing an illegal sexual intercourse. The Prophet asked them. "What is the legal punishment (for this sin) in your Book (Torah)?" They replied, "Our priests have innovated the punishment of blackening the faces with charcoal and Tajbiya." 'Abdullah bin Salam said, "O Allah's Apostle, tell them to bring the Torah." The Torah was brought, and then one of the Jews put his hand over the Divine Verse of the Rajam (stoning to death) and started reading what preceded and what followed it. On that, Ibn Salam said to the Jew, "Lift up your hand." Behold! The Divine Verse of the Rajam was under his hand. So Allah's Apostle ordered that the two (sinners) be stoned to death, and so they were stoned. Ibn 'Umar added: So both of them were stoned at the Balat and I saw the Jew sheltering the Jewess.
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar : The Jew brought to the Prophet a man and a woman from amongst them who have committed (adultery) illegal sexual intercourse. He ordered both of them to be stoned (to death), near the place of offering the funeral prayers beside the mosque."
Notice they are Jews, in the Bible they are proscribed stoning to death.
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Do you see Jews stoning people today?
Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
We are not talking about today. It was to 620s in the CE calendar. In the first hadith, clearly Muhammad was applying the Jewish law because they were Jews, and the Jewish law was stoning. The Jews weren't following their own law out of expediency.
Narrated Ibn 'Umar: A Jew and a Jewess were brought to Allah's Apostle on a charge of committing an illegal sexual intercourse. The Prophet asked them. "What is the legal punishment (for this sin) in your Book (Torah)?" They replied, "Our priests have innovated the punishment of blackening the faces with charcoal and Tajbiya." 'Abdullah bin Salam said, "O Allah's Apostle, tell them to bring the Torah." The Torah was brought, and then one of the Jews put his hand over the Divine Verse of the Rajam (stoning to death) and started reading what preceded and what followed it. On that, Ibn Salam said to the Jew, "Lift up your hand." Behold! The Divine Verse of the Rajam was under his hand. So Allah's Apostle ordered that the two (sinners) be stoned to death, and so they were stoned. Ibn 'Umar added: So both of them were stoned at the Balat and I saw the Jew sheltering the Jewess.
@Twilight Hue
Appears to have been talking about today, however the last known sentence for stoning in my view was in Sudan in 2013* which is 11 years ago. Not a comfortably long period of time but not today either
*Sudan woman faces death by stoning for adultery in first case for a decade
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
It's more in reference to this recent well reported declaration....
Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
Yes, I am well aware that Muslims sometimes stone adulterers today. @Twilight Hue was talking about the Jews today. This incident involved Muslims. Apples and Oranges. I don't think Muslims should be doing that as indicated in my post. I have difference of opinion with Muslim ulama.
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firedragon
Veteran Member
This is a strawman of course and you definitely know it. "Sudan" is not the "Hadith" this person is speaking about. Strawman. Whataboutary. Logically fallacious.
According to my understanding tasawwuf is the Arabic term for sufism so I don't understand the distinction you are making. It is true that especially the Chisti order in India became more universalist as exemplified by Hazrat Inayat Khan's prayers but that's not true of all sufi orders. Some place get emphasis on Shari'a.
The strawman is entirely your own in my view because I never said nor implied that Sudan was a hadith.
Sadly certain people have reading comprehension issues it seems.
firedragon
Veteran Member
So that's irrelevant. Correct? Attacking an irrelevant caricature is a strawman.
Of course. Some people do have reading and/or comprehension issues. Many people have many issues. Again., that's irrelevant.
firedragon
Veteran Member
I am not making any distinction. I am saying that Sufism was spoken of a long long time ago.
Anyway, I think you should just read my comment again.
Your response to mine is exactly that (ie irrelevant) in my view, however if you read the post I was responding to (which would greatly assist your reading comprehension) you will find it is directly relevant to the comment I responded to.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Cheap insults are no arguments mate. It only shows what kind of character you are.
He was speaking about a hadith, and you were speaking about Sudan. That's a strawman. It could be that your need to insult for pleasure overrides your reason.
Try and be more responsible. Over and out.
Physician heal thyself.
That wasn't the portion of his post I replied to, Twilight Hue
Said do Jews still stone people today (paraphrasing),
Truthseeker said we are not talking about today(paraphrasing)
I replied that to point out that Twighlight Hue was talking about today and said in effect that I dont know of any stoning sentences today and pointed out the nearest that I'm aware of in time was Sudan 11years ago.
At no point in time did I suggest Sudan was a hadith.
so you can see from the chain of posts that each post was relevant to the one before it until we got to yours in my view.
Physician heal thyself
Physician heal thyself.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Kaffir.
I swear, I could not be more anathema to Islam if it made the skin and meat melt out of my bones.