Suffer, You Little *&*^$%s

[IndigoChild5559]

In the very beginning when god created Adam & Eve he had big plans for them. He planted them in the garden of Eden where everything was idyllic: there was plenty to eat, (fruit and vegetables seemed to be the repas du jour, every day) nothing to fear (wolves played with the bunnies) nothing to be ashamed of (nudity was thee last word in fashion), and there was no hate, jealousy, or animosity (nobody was boinking anyone on the head and stealing their last carrot). And because they were born with reproductive organs I think it's fair to assume they were meant to reproduce, which meant that given enough time, if they and their progeny never died the world would eventually become over populated. Therefore, god intended that they would die, at which time he would take them into heaven with him.

Nice plan.

However, as we all know, right off the bat Eve screwed up the whole darn thing. We all know what happened so won't bother going into it, but I would like to point out one consequence. Because of this MAJOR blunder god decided that all almost all of his sentient creations would suffer. Bunnies, who once lived in peace with wolves, now had to fear them and suffer the likelihood of being eaten alive. Carrots and all other plants could well suffer a lack of rain and die of thirst. And mankind would suffer under the anger and vitriol of their "neighbors." Even personal suffering was inflicted on us; sadness, aching backs, and tummy aches. To say nothing of ALS, cancer, and heart attacks.

Nope, god made sure we'd all suffer, and suffer mightily for Eve's screw up.

Now, normally we confront the good and bad in our lives with proportionality. When we receive a nice bonus in our paycheck we don't blow our life's savings in celebration. Nor when stubbing our toe on the bathroom sink do we grab our Remington 597 Kryptek Semi Auto Rimfire rifle and start shooting out the tires on all the cars parked along our street. What we do is respond rationally and proportionally. After getting the bonus the wife and I might go out for dinner, and after stubbing my toe at most I'd hop around on the other foot while swearing for a minute or so. What I wouldn't do is visit my misfortune on anyone else. That would be just stupid, to say nothing of unjust and cruel.

Yet this is exactly what god has done. A&E messed up and now he's made us all suffer for it. Some say our suffering is necessary to gain salvation. Could be. Considering what misery god has already dumped on mankind I can honestly see him adding to our suffering by making us jump through hoops for his glory.

In her pandering apologetic, Chelsea Patterson Sobolik says:

"Suffering is inevitable.

For Christians enduring this fallen world, suffering has two purposes: God’s glory and our good."​

Looking up "glory" just to be sure I got it right, (it means "high renown or honor won by notable achievements") our suffering appears to increase or pay homage to god's already high renown or honor, but I ask you, to what purpose? Is god so vain that he needs more high renown or honor heaped upon him, and just how does our suffering do this? I suffer, which in turn adds to his renown or heaps more honor upon him? Truthfully I don't get the process at all; and where's this good we evidently receive from suffering?

Chelsea Patterson Sobolik says our suffering "sanctifies and purifies us."
source

Whaaat? "Sanctify" means "free from sin; purify / set apart as or declare holy; consecrate. / make legitimate or binding by religious sanction." Okay, but must this go on day after day, year after year? How about an "Option Out Clause"? And why would suffering do this instead of some act we choose to do? After all, don't those things we choose to do acquire more acknowledgment than those that just happen? As for suffering purifying us, I have just about the same questions as I do for sanctifying us.

So, I find it very difficult to pull any good from our suffering. BESIDES, none of this would have been necessary---god needing glory and all---if A&E had never screwed up. For the last 6,000 years or so god would have been sitting back in his Barcalounger watching everyone gambol about with the deer in all their nakedness, occasionally stopping to pull up a carrot or two before resuming their play time or mating. But-*sigh*- god became very vindictive and needy after the Eden event (personally, it doesn't speak well of his mentally stablity), purposely making us all his whipping boys. And in all our suffering, like the masochist, Christians are saying, "Thank you master. More please." So please forgive me for not understanding the whole thing. It just doesn't make sense.

What I do understand though, is that for god, "proportionality" is a dirty word.

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I'm not sure where you are getting some of your ideas from, such as bunnies frolicking with wolves. Genesis 2-3 is a myth, meaning it is not historical, but which teaches us a truth about God, the universe, or our own nature. In this case, it teaches us something important about our own nature.

The "garden" is the state of innocence we were in before we evolved a conscience. We were not yet modern human beings, although we were were genus homo. Think of a toddler -- they know that if they throw their food on the floor that mommy will sternly say no, and maybe their hand might be mildly slapped. But they certainly don't have a developed sense of morality. At some point, however, we "ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil," meaning we evolve moral sentience. At this point we came into a state where our instincts were at odds with our conscience. Some call this "the Fall," because our innocence was lost. Today we are no longer innocent animals that function on instinct alone, but higher level beings in a state of disharmony with our still existent instincts, or "evil inclination" which is often at odds with our conscience.

 

[sojourner]

Correct... but it is love that motivates judges to put them in there... love for the innocent.

Not sure I agree. I know several attorneys and judges. That’s not particularly the feeling I get from them.

 

[Skwim]

I'm not sure where you are getting some of your ideas from, such as bunnies frolicking with wolves. Genesis 2-3 is a myth, meaning it is not historical, but which teaches us a truth about God, the universe, or our own nature. In this case, it teaches us something important about our own nature.

Ever discuss the particulars of a movie, the story line, the plot, the characters, and so forth? You don't stop every few minutes and remind yourself and your discussion partner(s) that these discussion elements have no truth in reality. Rather, you discusses them in the context in which they've been presented. For purposes of the discussion you accept the given elements as true within their context. And this is what we "non-believers" do with a lot of religious claims. Although I don't believe X is true, I can none the less pretend it is true for purposes of discussion with those who do believe it is true. And this is how I approach much of the stuff in the Bible. I know very well that there was no great flood, yet I can still easily argue about its elements.

The "garden" is the state of innocence we were in before we evolved a conscience. We were not yet modern human beings, although we were were genus homo. Think of a toddler -- they know that if they throw their food on the floor that mommy will sternly say no, and maybe their hand might be mildly slapped. But they certainly don't have a developed sense of morality. At some point, however, we "ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil," meaning we evolve moral sentience. At this point we came into a state where our instincts were at odds with our conscience. Some call this "the Fall," because our innocence was lost. Today we are no longer innocent animals that function on instinct alone, but higher level beings in a state of disharmony with our still existent instincts, or "evil inclination" which is often at odds with our conscience.

So what does this have to do with god making all of the animal kingdom suffer because of what A&E did?

As I said. for god, "proportionality" is a dirty word.

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[Cooky]

Ever discuss the particulars of a movie, the story line, the plot, the characters, and so forth? You don't stop every few minutes and remind yourself and your discussion partner(s) that these discussion elements have no truth in reality. Rather, you discusses them in the context in which they've been presented. For purposes of the discussion you accept the given elements as true within their context. And this is what we "non-believers" do with a lot of religious claims. Although I don't believe X is true, I can none the less pretend it is true for purposes of discussion with those who do believe it is true. And this is how I approach much of the stuff in the Bible. I know very well that there was no great flood, yet I can still easily argue about its elements.



So what does this have to do with god making all of the animal kingdom suffer because of what A&E did?

As I said. for god, "proportionality" is a dirty word.

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You know it just has to be divine physics. Adam and Eve gain the ability to think evil thoughts... So they think evil thoughts.

Now imagine something entirely repulsive to you, like someone covered in urine and vomit. Do you not turn away in disgust?

...And all it takes is a flinch of God's attention, and immediately bad things start to happen. Because God is love and all that is good - So naturally, when you repulse God with what He hates the most, obviously, He must take a step back.

And like someone who continuously vomits and urinates on themselves, you're not going to get close until that stops altogether.

 

[Cooky]

...It just has to be that way.

 

[Skwim]

You know it just has to be divine physics. Adam and Eve gain the ability to think evil thoughts... So they think evil thoughts.

Now imagine something entirely repulsive to you, like someone covered in urine and vomit. Do you not turn away in disgust?

...And all it takes is a flinch of God's attention, and immediately bad things start to happen. Because God is love and all that is good - So naturally, when you repulse God with what He hates the most, obviously, He must take a step back.

And like someone who continuously vomits and urinates on themselves, you're not going to get close until that stops altogether.

So what does this have to do with god making all of the animal kingdom suffer because of what A&E did?

.

 

[Cooky]

So what does this have to do with god making all of the animal kingdom suffer because of what A&E did?

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Because if bears and tigers didn't have teeth to defend themselves with, our fallen selves would have killed them all by now out of both stupidity and greed.

Every animal must be able to defend itself now. Because of us. It's a blessing in fact that they can, because we would have destroyed the entire food chain, except maybe for the fishes, but even they run away.

 

[Deeje]

Because if bears and tigers didn't have teeth to defend themselves with, our fallen selves would have killed them all by now out of both stupidity and greed.

Every animal must be able to defend itself now. Because of us. It's a blessing in fact that they can, because we would have destroyed the entire food chain, except maybe for the fishes, but even they run away.

What else is interesting is what God did after the flood when he gave humans permission to eat meat. They were vegetarians up till that point apparently. This is what God said.....

"God went on to bless Noah and his sons and to say to them: “Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth. 2 A fear of you and a terror of you will continue upon every living creature of the earth and upon every flying creature of the heavens, upon everything that moves on the ground and upon all the fish of the sea. They are now given into your hand. 3 Every moving animal that is alive may serve as food for you. Just as I gave you the green vegetation, I give them all to you. 4 Only flesh with its life—its blood—you must not eat." (Genesis 9:1-4)

Fear of man was not in animals, birds or fish until after the flood. It was obviously to give them a fighting chance to survive since they were now on the menu. As you said..."greed and stupidity" are a dangerous combination.....it has affected the whole world ever since.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

So what does this have to do with god making all of the animal kingdom suffer because of what A&E did?

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I don't think he did.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

A live flat-earther for all to see.

LMAO! You STILL have NO evidence to back your myth.

Sad.

And ironic-- seeing as how you believe in a book that LITERALLY describes...

... A FLAT EARTH!

LMAO!

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Correct... but it is love that motivates judges to put them in there... love for the innocent.

And hate for anyone in your beast-god's hell.

Which is an EVIL thing.

Ergo? Your god? Evil.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Luke 13:27

Yes--- yes-- the god you worship isn't up to the name 'god'.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

What else is interesting is what God did after the flood when he gave humans permission to eat meat. They were vegetarians up till that point apparently. This is what God said.....

Do you have a single bible-verse in support of that?

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

You know it just has to be divine physics. Adam and Eve gain the ability to think evil thoughts... So they think evil thoughts.

Now imagine something entirely repulsive to you, like someone covered in urine and vomit. Do you not turn away in disgust?

...And all it takes is a flinch of God's attention, and immediately bad things start to happen. Because God is love and all that is good - So naturally, when you repulse God with what He hates the most, obviously, He must take a step back.

And like someone who continuously vomits and urinates on themselves, you're not going to get close until that stops altogether.

The hate you speak of, is absolutely incompatible with an all-loving god.

It also demonstrates a god who is too weak to control his own desires--- NOT something you want to see in a deity.

 

[Deeje]

Do you have a single bible-verse in support of that?

Genesis 9: 3-4...."Every moving animal that is alive may serve as food for you. Just as I gave you the green vegetation, I give them all to you. 4 Only flesh with its life—its blood—you must not eat."

He didn't need to "give" them what they already had.....they ate "green vegetation" which included fruit obviously.

 

[Cooky]

The hate you speak of, is absolutely incompatible with an all-loving god.

It also demonstrates a god who is too weak to control his own desires--- NOT something you want to see in a deity.

What exactly is it you are considering hateful? That God is repulsed by sin?

I would rather think of it as divine physics (action and reaction) than weakness.

God is what God is.

 

[Deeje]

So what does this have to do with god making all of the animal kingdom suffer because of what A&E did?

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Did God "MAKE" any of his creation suffer?...or did he simply not PREVENT it to teach some valuable lesson? Ones that will benefit mankind and all living things for all time to come? The Creator can see way past the end of your nose.

I think of a loving parent who is told that their child's genetic defect will end up killing them because of some toxin they exposed themselves to in their youth, but that surgeons have a series of operations that will in time, correct the defect completely and they can then live a 'normal' life. If you are that parent, do you say no to the surgeries because you know each one will be extremely painful? Or do you take the long term view that the pain is worth the end result?

Your threads are always betraying such a superficial view of God and what he is doing or has done in the past....you need to look a little deeper and see that nothing is as you assume. Its so easy to criticize when you don't have all the information. You are like a person on a jury who condemns an innocent person on the testimony of one witness. Hear them all out and see if there is a side to these issues that presently eludes you. In a contest of God verse human....God never loses. Humans just lose sight of his broader intentions.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Genesis 9: 3-4...."Every moving animal that is alive may serve as food for you. Just as I gave you the green vegetation, I give them all to you. 4 Only flesh with its life—its blood—you must not eat."

He didn't need to "give" them what they already had.....they ate "green vegetation" which included fruit obviously.

I was complaining about the silly idea that every human and animal was a vegetarian until the end of Eden.

Absolutely ludicrous, and absolutely without a single bible verse in support. Indeed-- your little cherry-picked snippet agrees with me that the vegetarian claim is nuts.

Verse 4 essentially says: "never eat suchi or steak tar tar" or I suppose, don't swallow a live goldfish either.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Did God "MAKE" any of his creation suffer?...or did he simply not PREVENT it to teach some valuable lesson?

How is dying "teaching" some ludicrous "lesson"?

The dead cannot learn.

 

[Deeje]

How is dying "teaching" some ludicrous "lesson"?

It was the penalty for disobeying a direct command...try doing that in the military and see what happens.

Its called consequences and its time people stopped whining and educated themselves.

None so deaf......none so blind.....you know the rest.

The dead cannot learn.

Yep, they post on these threads all the time....