Startling issue about my yidam/ishta-devata is arising

[Jainarayan]

When I do japa I chant om namo Nārāyaṇāya. This is the mantra that goes along with the Mahasudarshana yantra I have, and recommended by Sri Dharma Pravartaka Acharya (aka Dr. Frank Morales). Going back to this post by dyanaprajna http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/reputation.php?p=3164966 where I initially inquired about deity yoga:

I think that, if I understood everything I've read about Vajrayana correctly, the goal is not necessarily to identify with the deity, but to realize that you are not different or separate from the deity; that the deity is not an external form, but something inside yourself, that the qualities of said deity (compassion with Avalokitesvara, or wisdom with Manjusri, etc.) are qualities you possess, but just need to have a way to bring out.

I am finding that I am not identifying with, or able to identify with God Himself, though I know He is within me. I am not able to identify with the qualities God possesses nor do I know what qualities in me to bring out. It seems like biting off more than I can chew. However, I am able to identify with Avalokiteshvara as the bodhisattva of compassion, whose mantra is om mani padme hum. Compassion is something that is surfacing, that I want to bring out fully. While Vishnu is Supreme God, I am feeling that Avalokiteshvara is the vehicle or path to developing and exposing the compassion.

I have found the Nīlakaṇṭha Dhāranī. Notice the last three lines. This could very well be a dhāranī to Vishnu and Shiva. I don't think there is a conflict, because I believe that all buddhas and bodhisattvas are but aspects of Vishnu, who as the name suggests, is all-pervading. Of course I still chant His names. I just find this very odd that I am drawn this way to a yidam I would least expect, being primarily Vaishnava.

Tadyathā: Om Ālokādhipati lokātikrānta
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(Like this: Om! Lord of Effulgence, the World-Transcending One.) Ehy mahā-bodhisattva sarpa-sarpa smara smara hrdayam
(Come, great bodhisattva, descend, descend. Please remember (smara) my heart dharani.)
Kuru-kuru karma dhuru-dhuru vijayate mahā-vijayate
(Do, do the work. Hold fast, hold fast, Victor, the great Victor)
Dhara-dhara dhārinī-rāja cala-cala mama vimalā-mūrtte
(Hold on, hold on, King of the Dharani. Move, move onto my spotless image.)
Ehi ehi chinda chinda aras pracali vaśa-vaśam pranāśaya
(Come, come, the vow, the vow of the admantine king, destroy, destroy every poison.)
Hulu-hulu smara hulu-hulu sara-sara siri-siri suru-suru
(Quick-quick, please remember, quick-quick. Descend-descend, descend-descend, descend-descend)
Bodhiya-bodhiya bodhaya-bodhaya maitriya Nīlakantha [dehi me] darsanam
(Being enlightened, being enlightened; enlighten me, enlighten me. Merciful Blue-necked One appear [unto me].)
Praharāyamānāya svāhā siddhāya svāhā mahā-siddhāya svāhā siddhayogīśvarāya svāhā
(To you who sees us, hail! To the Successful one hail! To the Great Successful one hail! To the Successful Lord of the yogis, hail!)
Nīlakanthāya svāhā varāha-mukhāya svāhā narasimha-mukhāya svāha
(To the Blue-necked one (Nīlakantha) hail! To the Boar-faced One hail! To Man-Lion faced One hail!)
Gadā-hastāya svāhā cakra-hastāya svāhā padma-hastāya svāhā
(To one who bears the mace (gad&#257 in his hand, hail! To the holder of discus in his hand, hail! To One who sports a lotus (padma) in his hand, hail!)
Nīlakantha-pāndarāya svāhā Mahātali Śankaraya svāhā
(To Blue-necked One smeared (with holy ashes), hail! To the mighty auspicious one, hail!)
​

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

I think this was one of the genius aspects within tantric Buddhism. It can sometimes be difficult to identify as the dharmakaya/tathagatagarbha/buddha-nature, as it takes great pain and practice, and probably many lifetimes to accomplish, but for more immediate and practical results, we have the bodhisattvas, who are nothing more than the various aspects of Buddha, which are easier to identify with, and easier to accomplish in realizing that we are the same as they. I wouldn't see this as a stumbling block, but just another step on a path who's journey encompasses lifetimes with many stops along the way.

 

[Jainarayan]

Thanks. To visualize my "Vishnu-ness" (i.e. Brahman), is what yogis spend lifetimes trying to accomplish... jivanmukti or moksha itself. It's all about baby steps to bring out a facet that will eventually lead to enlightenment. I think many people do what I was trying to do in their meditation and get discouraged and disappointed when they don't get darshan of their ishta-devata in the first month, as it were.

Now I feel a tiny bit of enlightenment in that!

 

[Windwalker]

Thanks. To visualize my "Vishnu-ness" (i.e. Brahman), is what yogis spend lifetimes trying to accomplish... jivanmukti or moksha itself. It's all about baby steps to bring out a facet that will eventually lead to enlightenment. I think many people do what I was trying to do in their meditation and get discouraged and disappointed when they don't get darshan of their ishta-devata in the first month, as it were.

Now I feel a tiny bit of enlightenment in that!

If I may add my experience to this? Very much do I understanding the role of the ishta-deva, the guru, or guide within meditation. This is something that arises naturally as we give ourselves in intention and devotion to the divine. For me it is a difficult thing to describe, but it is myself, who in trying to grasp or seize or seek to experience this, fails to see what is there just waiting for me to stop looking at myself!

When we are able to set ourselves gently down and listen, see, hear, that is when it arises and our minds learn to remain fixed upon her, or whatever form that takes. It becomes your guide into these realms of conscious mind. The more that occurs, the more we trust that process, the leading, the guidence through ourselves, we are opened to and introduced to higher and more subtle domains, into stillness, knowing, the mind of God. It is a process as we fear its greatness, as it can overwhelm in it's depth and brilliance. The key is trust and learning to set aside all seeking for self. Easier said than done, but once we do it is entirely the easiest thing, all becomes effortless within that.

I wish to add something I read awhile back that I can say is very much this what you referenced:

"But this is not God as an ontological other, set apart from the cosmos, from humans, and from creation at large. Rather, it is God as an archetypal summit of one's own Consciousness. ... By visualizing that identification 'we actually do become the deity. The subject is identified with the object of faith. The worship, the worshiper, and the worshiped, those three are not separate'. At its peak, the soul becomes one, literally one, with the deity-form, with the dhyani-buddha, with (choose whatever term one prefers) God. One dissolves into Deity, as Deity - that Deity which, from the beginning, has been one's own Self or highest Archetype."



~Ken Wilber, Eye to Eye, pg. 85​

 

[Jainarayan]

If I may add my experience to this?

Absolutely! I appreciate any and all perspectives and advice.

Very much do I understanding the role of the ishta-deva, the guru, or guide within meditation. This is something that arises naturally as we give ourselves in intention and devotion to the divine.

So this is a natural progression, like finding a prettier and prettier sea shell as we walk along the beach. Or getting better at playing the piano or guitar as time goes on, because you see new things; "Ah ha!" moments.

It is a process as we fear its greatness, as it can overwhelm in it's depth and brilliance. The key is trust and learning to set aside all seeking for self. Easier said than done, but once we do it is entirely the easiest thing, all becomes effortless within that.

Yes, it does feel overwhelming because this is not something I expected to happen. It doesn't fit in with the paradigm I would expect in how I label myself and have been practicing. But as they say "God works in mysterious ways". As it goes on, it seems to have a Daoist element... wei wu wei.

I wish to add something I read awhile back that I can say is very much this what you referenced:

"But this is not God as an ontological other, set apart from the cosmos, from humans, and from creation at large. Rather, it is God as an archetypal summit of one's own Consciousness. ... By visualizing that identification 'we actually do become the deity. The subject is identified with the object of faith. The worship, the worshiper, and the worshiped, those three are not separate'. At its peak, the soul becomes one, literally one, with the deity-form, with the dhyani-buddha, with (choose whatever term one prefers) God. One dissolves into Deity, as Deity - that Deity which, from the beginning, has been one's own Self or highest Archetype."



~Ken Wilber, Eye to Eye, pg. 85
​

I like that, it's a keeper. Thanks.

 

[Windwalker]

So this is a natural progression, like finding a prettier and prettier sea shell as we walk along the beach. Or getting better at playing the piano or guitar as time goes on, because you see new things; "Ah ha!" moments.

It's hard to express it, but the key is to understand it is nothing you produce. You do not 'achieve' something you set yourself to the task of accomplishing. The only thing you accomplish or succeed at is not trying.

There are certain 'landmark' shifts that happen to me of the course of my meditation practice that you sense a certain shift in the overall focus. One of those some time back was what I put the words to that 'I am no longer a seeker, I am Her student'. What that meant to me is that my practice and what was exposed to me was about me learning about myself, to learn to understand those things within me and befriend them, to embrace them, to heal them that would help me get to the place of receptivity. In essence it came to the place that through that inner guidance it was like, 'OK, now you know how to get to the school house'. Then it became a matter of knowing what I need to do to get there, then it's a matter of learning how be still, to be receptive, to be taught.

None of these are anything that you master within yourself as an achievement. The entire thing is only done through allowing higher mind to be your guide, to give yourself to that and allow it to become your mind. You cannot approach any of it like you would in achieving some goal like you do in the world. All those skills, valuable as they are, do not apply in this context. What you do is to empty yourself into it, and allow it to teach you, and it to become you, and you to become it. This is the path.

When I say it arises naturally I mean as we set aside our control, our busy, active minds trying to accomplish some goal, and learn to be quite and open, it arises. Rather, more accurately, we see what was always there but blocked because we were busy trying. And when it becomes 'visible' to us, then we learn to embrace it and let it guide us to where we are ready and able at that time to go. This is a process of movement and integration. Too much too fast can overwhelm.

Peak experiences is one thing, where the ceiling is blown off the roof of reality and we see the Universe rent open to us, which then subsides into our 'normal' realities. But meditation is a controlled exposure into this. We are not thrust into it unexpectedly, but a student of it. A marked difference in how we move into it. One shows you what is there, the other transforms you gradually into it.

Yes, it does feel overwhelming because this is not something I expected to happen.

That is wonderful! It will become familiar, but always surprising. My best advice is this. Be present always with intention, but without expectation. Both together are key. Intention is you will, you present yourself, keep yourself present. But without expectation means do not come in there seeking for that again for the sake that you want that experience again. Very hard not to do! I know this. This entire thing is a process of unlearning all your normal habits. You must come with intention, but open to what it wishes to show you, so to speak. This is a hard, but central thing you need to learn, and I still am. Keeping your practice regular helps.

There's lots to learn in there!

It doesn't fit in with the paradigm I would expect in how I label myself and have been practicing. But as they say "God works in mysterious ways". As it goes on, it seems to have a Daoist element... wei wu wei.

Exactly. The entire thing is learning to dance with your partner who has always been there waiting for you to show up!

 

[Jainarayan]

It's hard to express it, but the key is to understand it is nothing you produce. You do not 'achieve' something you set yourself to the task of accomplishing. The only thing you accomplish or succeed at is not trying.

I understand; in fact I wanted to include that in the section about wei wu wei. It happens, we do it without doing it.

There are certain 'landmark' shifts that happen to me of the course of my meditation practice that you sense a certain shift in the overall focus.

I think that's what's happening with me.

One of those some time back was what I put the words to that 'I am no longer a seeker, I am Her student'. What that meant to me is that my practice and what was exposed to me was about me learning about myself, to learn to understand those things within me and befriend them, to embrace them...

Again, I think that's where I'm getting to. Doing puja at home or going to temple for puja and abhishekams was no different than when I went to church as a Catholic or Eastern Orthodox. Those were externals, I have to look inside myself now.

None of these are anything that you master within yourself as an achievement. The entire thing is only done through allowing higher mind to be your guide, to give yourself to that and allow it to become your mind. You cannot approach any of it like you would in achieving some goal like you do in the world. All those skills, valuable as they are, do not apply in this context. What you do is to empty yourself into it, and allow it to teach you, and it to become you, and you to become it. This is the path.

Yes, go with the flow. I have told people to be like a lightning rod, attract the guidance and energy, and be receptive to what comes. A lightning rod doesn't look for a bolt of lightning. It's there waiting to receive the shock.

When I say it arises naturally I mean as we set aside our control, our busy, active minds trying to accomplish some goal, and learn to be quite and open, it arises. Rather, more accurately, we see what was always there but blocked because we were busy trying. And when it becomes 'visible' to us, then we learn to embrace it and let it guide us to where we are ready and able at that time to go. This is a process of movement and integration. Too much too fast can overwhelm.

Like trying to hold onto a fistful of sand. Squeeze it harder to hold onto it and it slips through your fingers. Hold your hand open and the sand will sit there.

That is wonderful! It will become familiar, but always surprising. My best advice is this. Be present always with intention, but without expectation. Both together are key. Intention is you will, you present yourself, keep yourself present. But without expectation means do not come in there seeking for that again for the sake that you want that experience again. Very hard not to do! I know this. This entire thing is a process of unlearning all your normal habits. You must come with intention, but open to what it wishes to show you, so to speak. This is a hard, but central thing you need to learn, and I still am. Keeping your practice regular helps.

No, I don't expect anything now. For a while I worried that I didn't know how to meditate and wasn't getting any feeling. Then I thought well, I have many lifetimes to accomplish it, even time in this lifetime. Nothing comes over night. Again, the harder you fight the faster you lose (except fighting SyFy-made-for-tv-movie monsters... gotta kick their butts ).

There's lots to learn in there!

That's for sure!

One of the things I've discovered, or to be honest I've admitted, is that I have a lot of negative traits... anger, irritability, impatience, intolerance. Sure, deep down I have compassion; there are things I've done and I do with a compassionate mind that I won't reveal because it ruins the karma and merit. I think before compassion comes bursting to the surface like the Yellowstone Supervolcano, I have to eliminate those negative traits. They will continue to be an obstacle to spiritual advancement. I know that's a no-brainer. I have to especially focus on the kṣānti pāramitā: patience, tolerance, forbearance, acceptance, endurance.

 

[Windwalker]

Again, I think that's where I'm getting to. Doing puja at home or going to temple for puja and abhishekams was no different than when I went to church as a Catholic or Eastern Orthodox. Those were externals, I have to look inside myself now.

To be sure the external forms have their place as they engage the body and its senses. But it needs to be with an act of the mind with intention. These become expressions of the desire of your will to the divine. They help to ground the mind. But all too often for many people the practices of these forms becomes the experience in and of themselves, and they become a substitute for the inner work. In fact in this sense you could see them as potentially dangerous because we could delude ourselves this is spiritual because it is an action toward God.

In practice with the inner work, they are aides, vehicles to help focus the mind in its practices toward God. Japa mala practice becomes something deeply penetrating when that mantra permeates us through our intention toward it. It becomes a vehicle for the divine, and a tool for us to steady our minds in focus through the engagement of the tactile, the auditory, the vocal, etc. Add incense to this for the sense of smell, candles and images for sight. There are reasons these practices were developed. But they have to begin inside - exactly as you realize. Forms are good, but without intention it is not actually going inside that temple. The temple is empty.

Yes, go with the flow. I have told people to be like a lightning rod, attract the guidance and energy, and be receptive to what comes. A lightning rod doesn't look for a bolt of lightning. It's there waiting to receive the shock.

This understanding is actually what made me decided I needed to start practicing meditation, rather than just studying about this and thinking about it as much as I was. What meditation does is it puts you in the path of it happening. It doesn't create it, manufacture it, or manipulate it. It simply puts you in the place to received it. Eventually, as we know what it is to be in this place, how to enter that quickly, we can do that anytime anywhere. Eventually, we are always in there.

No, I don't expect anything now. For a while I worried that I didn't know how to meditate and wasn't getting any feeling. Then I thought well, I have many lifetimes to accomplish it, even time in this lifetime. Nothing comes over night. Again, the harder you fight the faster you lose (except fighting SyFy-made-for-tv-movie monsters... gotta kick their butts ).

Yes, worry is looking at ourselves again. It creates our own failure. There is in fact something to be said for the religious teachings of faith. In meditation, faith actually makes sense. It's something real that allows us to fall into that Ocean, into the unseen and unrealized. It's then it catches us. The second we try, we recede, the second we fear, we recede, the second we doubt, analyze, or try to process it with our 'normal' cognitive minds, it we recede. It's a hair's breadth line you and I meet in there between entering and withdrawing into ourselves.

One of the things I've discovered, or to be honest I've admitted, is that I have a lot of negative traits... anger, irritability, impatience, intolerance. Sure, deep down I have compassion; there are things I've done and I do with a compassionate mind that I won't reveal because it ruins the karma and merit. I think before compassion comes bursting to the surface like the Yellowstone Supervolcano, I have to eliminate those negative traits. They will continue to be an obstacle to spiritual advancement. I know that's a no-brainer. I have to especially focus on the kṣānti pāramitā: patience, tolerance, forbearance, acceptance, endurance.

If I may be so bold? Conquering these things in ourselves with our normal mind is something we cannot do. It's not always necessary to make yourself pure first, because you frankly don't have the distance, the higher vantage point in yourself to figure this stuff out. With that guidance, with that insight, with that higher set of eyes, that higher mind, it illuminates these things in yourself so that you see them "from above", so to speak. With that perspective, you are not on the ground doing battle with these from yourself, trying to wrestle and control them through sheer force of will. You become Grace, and through Grace you gently ease them, befriend them, and harness their power to serve God.

In other words, you don't always have to figure things out first.

What I find for myself as I move into deeper 'chambers' in meditation, to use that term, there is a place where I feel the necessity to be purified before entering deeper, entering into the endless depths of the divine. I cannot do this from myself. It is higher than me, and the higher must do this. I must present myself to it and submit to the purifying waters, so to speak (all of this is highly symbolic to attempt to talk about this). With that then I enter, not of myself and mind 'lower mind', but of purified mind. In that space illumination fills my mind and I begin to move into a knowledge of this within my awakening higher mind. All this is a process. And it holds true into whatever depths you move into. Each new depth is a new preperation that must occur. You just can't walk in there as you will. It is not your lower mind that controls your lower mind, but the higher mind.

Now that was pretty personal what I shared here, and I hope it has some benefit for you. I'm a still a learner, humbled by what is given.

 

[Jainarayan]

To be sure the external forms have their place as they engage the body and its senses. But it needs to be with an act of the mind with intention. These become expressions of the desire of your will to the divine. They help to ground the mind. But all too often for many people the practices of these forms becomes the experience in and of themselves, and they become a substitute for the inner work. In fact in this sense you could see them as potentially dangerous because we could delude ourselves this is spiritual because it is an action toward God.

That's precisely what I'm talking about (precisely doesn't get used as often as it should ). When one goes through the motions by rote or out of a sense of "gee, I haven't been to temple/synagogue/church in forever, I really must go" and you yawn or look around all through the services, there's nothing there. My EO priest used to say that external things become an end in themselves. I don't want to go off on a tangent, but I think that's what the Buddha railed against viz. the Vedas being incorrectly followed; Sri Krishna made a similar comment about the Vedas being an end in themselves and their true meaning lost.

In practice with the inner work, they are aides, vehicles to help focus the mind in its practices toward God. Japa mala practice becomes something deeply penetrating when that mantra permeates us through our intention toward it. It becomes a vehicle for the divine, and a tool for us to steady our minds in focus through the engagement of the tactile, the auditory, the vocal, etc. Add incense to this for the sense of smell, candles and images for sight. There are reasons these practices were developed. But they have to begin inside - exactly as you realize. Forms are good, but without intention it is not actually going inside that temple. The temple is empty.

Yes, there have been times when I've sat in front of my shrine (it's more than an altar, believe you me, it's out of control ) just observing the flickering flames and being immersed in its atmosphere, whether I'm meditating on something specific or not. Usually not, because being there, listening for what the deities might want to tell me is an indescribable feeling.

Eventually, as we know what it is to be in this place, how to enter that quickly, we can do that anytime anywhere. Eventually, we are always in there.

Sometimes my meditation is more productive when I'm driving or sitting somewhere quiet, though fully aware of my surroundings. Even at my desk at work if I let my mind "release" its pre-occupations. Sometimes if I try to force myself into meditating, I get nowhere. I just have to let the thoughts come and go when and where they want. That's what happened in this case. I was wakefully meditating and it hit me.

If I may be so bold? Conquering these things in ourselves with our normal mind is something we cannot do. It's not always necessary to make yourself pure first, because you frankly don't have the distance, the higher vantage point in yourself to figure this stuff out. With that guidance, with that insight, with that higher set of eyes, that higher mind, it illuminates these things in yourself so that you see them "from above", so to speak. With that perspective, you are not on the ground doing battle with these from yourself, trying to wrestle and control them through sheer force of will. You become Grace, and through Grace you gently ease them, befriend them, and harness their power to serve God.

In other words, you don't always have to figure things out first.

Yeah OK, I like and can understand that. To do otherwise is consciously forcing and fighting.

What I find for myself as I move into deeper 'chambers' in meditation, to use that term, there is a place where I feel the necessity to be purified before entering deeper, entering into the endless depths of the divine. I cannot do this from myself. It is higher than me, and the higher must do this. I must present myself to it and submit to the purifying waters, so to speak (all of this is highly symbolic to attempt to talk about this). With that then I enter, not of myself and mind 'lower mind', but of purified mind. In that space illumination fills my mind and I begin to move into a knowledge of this within my awakening higher mind. All this is a process. And it holds true into whatever depths you move into. Each new depth is a new preperation that must occur. You just can't walk in there as you will. It is not your lower mind that controls your lower mind, but the higher mind.

Now that was pretty personal what I shared here, and I hope it has some benefit for you. I'm a still a learner, humbled by what is given.

That was excellent. I may just copy it and print it on one of the 4x6" cards I make up for my prayers, mantras and and inspirational booklets.

 

[Jainarayan]

Btw does any of this, Chenrezig/Avalokiteshvara meditation, require empowerment? I understand from various places either yes empowerment and guidance is necessary, or no empowerment guidance necessary, that his practice is open to all. I think at this point I'm talking about front generation, not self generation, then perhaps moving on to self generation once proficient.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

Btw does any of this, Chenrezig/Avalokiteshvara meditation, require empowerment? I understand from various places either yes empowerment and guidance is necessary, or no empowerment guidance necessary, that his practice is open to all. I think at this point I'm talking about front generation, not self generation, then perhaps moving on to self generation once proficient.

From what I understand, Avalokiteshvara is the only deity that requires no empowerment, and can be practiced by anybody. However, there are several schools of Tibetan Buddhism, so this may differ depending on which school.

 

[Windwalker]

Btw does any of this, Chenrezig/Avalokiteshvara meditation, require empowerment? I understand from various places either yes empowerment and guidance is necessary, or no empowerment guidance necessary, that his practice is open to all. I think at this point I'm talking about front generation, not self generation, then perhaps moving on to self generation once proficient.

I was working on a response to your above post in between things, but will get out of order and respond quickly to this. Whether empowerment is necessary or not, IMHO, really depends on where you are at. I see that, perhaps I'm wrong, as a way to prepare the mind. If you are already there, then it seems redundant and possibly distracting. I can get complex in thinking here, but I'll leave it at this.

As far as front generation and self generation, again, there is not always some 'now I'm here, it's always this way'. That's a trap of expectations we can fall into. For instance, yesterday I moved into places deeper than I've ever been... rather it's better to say same place but deeper, more stable, hard to describe in words really. Then today, I go to meditate and I'm in a different place, good, but not such a mature and stable place, to try to put words to it. Don't sweat it. We go over the same ground like a spiral. It's not a straight line ascendance.

Just because at one point you lay bare before the Infinite and light surrounds you and your mind becomes like glass; every candle flame a perfection the timeless now, and then you find yourself another time after this struggling to keep attentive at all in meditation, back where you were when you began, don't sweat it. Do not judge yourself on some scale of achievement. You are where you need to be, when you are there, whether high or low. Learn from each. (I tell myself this as much as you, if not even more. I notoriously fall into that trap of evaluating things in hierarchies).

 

[Jainarayan]

From what I understand, Avalokiteshvara is the only deity that requires no empowerment, and can be practiced by anybody.

Scouring the 'net I found these:

The Chenrezig and Tara practices are open to all to participate. Nowadays the sadhana are freely available on the internet. Initially you would not have had access to the written sadhana if you had not received the transmission of the text. But times have changed. So feel free to practice Chenrezig/Avalokitesvara and Tara without having gone through the formality of refuge. Since you are reading and being inspired by Buddhist texts, doing Buddhist practices and associating with Buddhist sangha then realistically you have already gone for refuge to the Three Jewels!

So I asked the lama and senior students whether I could practice Chenrezig visualization, it seems I was told that I could do the same visualization as the group practice on my own. So for my own practice obviously the question is answered.

Chenrezig:Lord of Love is a great book as mentioned. chenrezig, like cundi, tara and a host of others is an open practice. There is nothing but benefit in the practice

However, there are several schools of Tibetan Buddhism, so this may differ depending on which school.

I don't know which I'd be following (if that's the right word), I guess Gelugpa by default.

This is the "public" Chenrezig/Avalokiteshvara sadhana http://www.kdk.org/images/chenrezig_sadhana.pdf

 

[Jainarayan]

I was working on a response to your above post in between things, but will get out of order and respond quickly to this. Whether empowerment is necessary or not, IMHO, really depends on where you are at. I see that, perhaps I'm wrong, as a way to prepare the mind. If you are already there, then it seems redundant and possibly distracting.

It seems from the comment I posted above "Since you are reading and being inspired by Buddhist texts, doing Buddhist practices and associating with Buddhist sangha then realistically you have already gone for refuge to the Three Jewels!" you are right that it (I presume empowerment) might be more distracting than valuable.

As far as front generation and self generation, again, there is not always some 'now I'm here, it's always this way'. That's a trap of expectations we can fall into. For instance, yesterday I moved into places deeper than I've ever been... rather it's better to say same place but deeper, more stable, hard to describe in words really. Then today, I go to meditate and I'm in a different place, good, but not such a mature and stable place, to try to put words to it. Don't sweat it. We go over the same ground like a spiral. It's not a straight line ascendance.

Just because at one point you lay bare before the Infinite and light surrounds you and your mind becomes like glass; every candle flame a perfection the timeless now, and then you find yourself another time after this struggling to keep attentive at all in meditation, back where you were when you began, don't sweat it. Do not judge yourself on some scale of achievement. You are where you need to be, when you are there, whether high or low. Learn from each. (I tell myself this as much as you, if not even more. I notoriously fall into that trap of evaluating things in hierarchies).

I think the best I can do is begin practice and see where it leads me. I have no expectations. I know there will be changes in me I never would have thought, because I've seen them already since adopting Hinduism and now studying Mahayana. I know they will be intense and perhaps painful because as much as I thought I was a "good" person, I am seeing things in myself I do not like. I think it was Paramahansa Yogananda who wrote something to the effect "the past is the past, let it go" (aw heck, it might be in the Yoga Sutras of Patajnali for all I remember!).

 

[Jainarayan]

This is the "public" Chenrezig/Avalokiteshvara sadhana http://www.kdk.org/images/chenrezig_sadhana.pdf

Btw, I presume the sadhana should be chanted in the Tibetan?

 

[Windwalker]

My EO priest used to say that external things become an end in themselves. I don't want to go off on a tangent, but I think that's what the Buddha railed against viz. the Vedas being incorrectly followed; Sri Krishna made a similar comment about the Vedas being an end in themselves and their true meaning lost.

The interesting thing about them however, even when they are purely external is that they teach something about the exercise of devotion, even if it is not yet internally realized. Sometimes I see it kind of as object lessons like you might teach to a child who has not yet internalized the forms of social conduct. Bring a gift to a friend's house when they invite you over for dinner is merely a thing you do to a child, but as they grow up they understand better the more subtle connections. It's purpose is to bring to mind something in yourself toward another, and they in their exchange to you. Prior to that, it's just a "rule", external to them.

But some never open to the subtle, and then the forms are 'just how you do things'. At the point they open up is when they quit being signs (what points to your current world) and become symbols (what evoke the inner being to a higher awareness). Signs are horizontal, symbols are vertical.

Yes, there have been times when I've sat in front of my shrine (it's more than an altar, believe you me, it's out of control ) just observing the flickering flames and being immersed in its atmosphere, whether I'm meditating on something specific or not. Usually not, because being there, listening for what the deities might want to tell me is an indescribable feeling.

And the point of these are reminders. They bring to mind that higher, vertical relationship. In treating these with respect and reverence, it is treating that inside of us with that, valuing it. I have several altars set up around my house. When I meditate however I have a small table I set up and take down when finished. As you say, even if you are not meditating, or are simply not 'in the zone', just being there is in itself sufficient.

Sometimes my meditation is more productive when I'm driving or sitting somewhere quiet, though fully aware of my surroundings. Even at my desk at work if I let my mind "release" its pre-occupations. Sometimes if I try to force myself into meditating, I get nowhere. I just have to let the thoughts come and go when and where they want. That's what happened in this case. I was wakefully meditating and it hit me.

Yes, it does come when we're not looking. I think that's the point.

That was excellent. I may just copy it and print it on one of the 4x6" cards I make up for my prayers, mantras and and inspirational booklets.

Wow. I'm deeply honored.


:namaste

 

[Jainarayan]

The interesting thing about them however, even when they are purely external is that they teach something about the exercise of devotion, even if it is not yet internally realized. ...

But some never open to the subtle, and then the forms are 'just how you do things'. ...

Yeah, unfortunately some people never open up. This is unfortunately something I ran into when I was first attending temple and people were getting used to the "token white guy". I've spoken of this before... when the new temple opened, some of us did a walk-around together to visit the shrines and sanctums. I'd remark at how nice Sri Whoever's sanctum was done with its symbolism, murthi, etc. The responses were along the lines of "You know more about this than we do; well, we were raised with it so we take it for granted". I'd answer with a "well, you know converts are the worst" and we'd laugh. But in reality it's not so funny. Or one time someone I was chatting with said with an almost-sigh "well, let me go do my rounds, see you later" (rounds being visits to the shrines).

I have several altars set up around my house. When I meditate however I have a small table I set up and take down when finished. As you say, even if you are not meditating, or are simply not 'in the zone', just being there is in itself sufficient.

Oh thank Gods! I thought it was just me, I have little shrines all over the place! I have candles or oil lamps and incense holders on each of the tables, but it's only at the "main altar" (which is the one totally out of control with murthis of Hindu and Buddhist deities) I wave the lamp and put the sweets and water offerings, and pray. I don't know how correct that is, though.

Wow. I'm deeply honored.


:namaste

 

[Windwalker]

I'd remark at how nice Sri Whoever's sanctum was done with its symbolism, murthi, etc. The responses were along the lines of "You know more about this than we do; well, we were raised with it so we take it for granted".

Well, try not to be too hard on them. I was asking another Tibetan Buddhist nun I know about the symbols of White Tara, I commented I know these symbolizes this, but what does this symbolize. She said to me she never really thinks about it. She just grew up with it. She's never had to stop and think about it. She suggested I talk with her Rinpoche, that he's good at explaining them. I think that may be the same thing. The power of symbols for those who grow up with them is that they are not analyzed. They just enter into the mind space.

You or I coming from other traditions have to try to find a way to make them meaningful in our contexts. I've argued elsewhere that I don't believe it's possible for them to fully impact us as those who grew up with them, for the very reason she stated to me, and what they said to you. Eventually, we may not have to 'think about them', but that's what saturation brings you. Where you not only can learn to speak another language, but you actually think in that language.

Oh thank Gods! I thought it was just me, I have little shrines all over the place! I have candles or oil lamps and incense holders on each of the tables, but it's only at the "main altar" (which is the one totally out of control with murthis of Hindu and Buddhist deities) I wave the lamp and put the sweets and water offerings, and pray. I don't know how correct that is, though.

I have three, and the one I use in meditation I set up beforehand and take down afterward (ritually, I'll add). I use the antique Tibetan Singing Bowls in meditation, and I have 12 of them, of various sizes and tones. They are the old hand-beaten ones, not the new ones, or the machined ones so they have very rich polyphonic harmonic structures that are really, frankly, divine. The help the mind enter into meditation effectively, and later in meditative states they transport you into an infinite space. I use them for sound offerings as well. Candles of course, etc.

 

[Jainarayan]

Well, try not to be too hard on them.

No, no, not at all. In a way I found it humorous that people are the same all over, despite my earlier. I thought it was only Catholics (like my family) who have no clue why they do certain things at certain times.

You or I coming from other traditions have to try to find a way to make them meaningful in our contexts. I've argued elsewhere that I don't believe it's possible for them to fully impact us as those who grew up with them, for the very reason she stated to me, and what they said to you. Eventually, we may not have to 'think about them', but that's what saturation brings you. Where you not only can learn to speak another language, but you actually think in that language.

Well, I always say that coming from different traditions is sometimes a benefit because we see things from a different perspective. However, while a 10 year old may not know the translation, I've heard a children's group recite the Sri Vishnu Sahasranama in perfect unison, not missing a beat, from memory. That's an advantage and skill I'll never have. Though just hearing it is said to confer blessings.

I have three, and the one I use in meditation I set up beforehand and take down afterward (ritually, I'll add). I use the antique Tibetan Singing Bowls in meditation, and I have 12 of them, of various sizes and tones. They are the old hand-beaten ones, not the new ones, or the machined ones so they have very rich polyphonic harmonic structures that are really, frankly, divine. The help the mind enter into meditation effectively, and later in meditative states they transport you into an infinite space. I use them for sound offerings as well. Candles of course, etc.

Maybe I'll look into learning to use them for meditation. I have a Tibetan bell that came with a wooden stick. I haven't figured out yet how to make the bell sing. I just hold it in my hand and ring it to invoke the deities.

Maybe I should do the same thing, set up a small table to place the Vishnu yantra, lamp, incense when I do nama japa, then return it to the altar. I can do the same with the image of Avalokiteshvara when I do that sadhana. In fact, because the main shrine is in the "great room" (living room-dining room combined area) it's almost impossible to meditate because it's a "public" area. I can set up my temporary meditative shrine(s) in the bedroom, in the dark, close the door and send the signal Do Not Disturb - Meditation in Progress. Heck, I'd even make up a sign to hang on the door.

 

[Windwalker]

Maybe I'll look into learning to use them for meditation. I have a Tibetan bell that came with a wooden stick. I haven't figured out yet how to make the bell sing. I just hold it in my hand and ring it to invoke the deities.

The same rule for singing the bell is what you use for the bowls. This video here down the page on this link explains the technique:

How To Play Tibetan Singing Bowls

Plus if you're interested this is a really nice use of a 'tuned' large set. I have one large one myself, and to say the least, playing several is like playing water. Hard to describe. It's quite natural and organinc:

[youtube]rOFTDCoxedc[/youtube]
Singing Bowl Meditation: Crown Chakra Set - YouTube

Maybe I should do the same thing, set up a small table to place the Vishnu yantra, lamp, incense when I do nama japa, then return it to the altar. I can do the same with the image of Avalokiteshvara when I do that sadhana. In fact, because the main shrine is in the "great room" (living room-dining room combined area) it's almost impossible to meditate because it's a "public" area. I can set up my temporary meditative shrine(s) in the bedroom, in the dark, close the door and send the signal Do Not Disturb - Meditation in Progress. Heck, I'd even make up a sign to hang on the door.

Yes, not be disrupted during meditation is important! If you are 'out there', so to speak, your mind is like a kite in the clouds and your body on the ground. To get disrupted in that state can leave you rattled for a long time, to say the least.