Spiritual?

[Somkid]

Generally it means I forgot to do something and my wife is not going to be happy.

 

[Rolling_Stone]

Generally it means I forgot to do something and my wife is not going to be happy.

I used to see the wisdom in this. Still do. But I chose another path.

My avatar is a deliberate choice. I know it's hard to see, but it's a picture of a jeepney in the Philippines so crammed with people I could only wonder how the driver could see. Maybe it's a bit crazy there by American standards and undoubtedly very poor, but the people are more alive, more vital, than most Americans can imagine. My avatar is a witness to their aliveness.

I like your avatar, too, Somkid. It's quite the opposite of mine. The tranquility in the midst of tigers which, to me, symbolize our inner passions and resonates with me. It is not, however, my chosen path.

I find self-awareness emerges only inasmuch I merge with what transpires within. For the only way to be truly human is to strive to be more than human, and we cannot do that by limiting the experience of our humanness. My meditations are an exploration of my inner life, reaching inward to connect with the Essence of All Being.

I don't think we're all that different.

 

[blackout]

I do, and I think you sound drunk

Cheers!:drunk:

 

[blackout]

I find self-awareness emerges only inasmuch I merge with what transpires within. For the only way to be truly human is to strive to be more than human, and we cannot do that by limiting the experience of our humanness. My meditations are an exploration of my inner life, reaching inward to connect with the Essence of All Being.

I don't think we're all that different.

Nice!:rainbow1:

From this quote
I'd say I'm not all that different either!

I also see that my outer reality
reflects, encourages, inspires, and embodies
my inner life.
I consciously experience and realize the world
from the inside out.
I just love finding personal meaning(s) in things.
Assigning meaning ... moving in that meaning...
and watching the majik unfold.

I suppose I call my personal "spiritual" connect with the essence of all Being--
Majik. I call it UltraViolet Majik.

 

[frg001]

I agree with tomspug. Atheism is actually very human-centered. While a sense of wonder at the beauty and vastness of the universe, and humanity's seeming insignificance in light of the universe, is all well and good, at the end of the day atheism still promotes the idea that man is in control of his own destiny, that man is the pinnacle of evolution, that man is the center of his own universe, that man is his own god, essentially.

Christianity, on the other hand, is God-centered, not man-centered. A Christian looks at the universe with just as much wonder and appreciation, and still sees humanity's frail insignificance in comparison, but such observations lead to different conclusions. The vastness of the universe points to the vastness of God, the immeasurable wonder that is God. Christians do not limit their thinking at wondering at the universe alone----they wonder at the awesome Being who created it. Far from anthropocentric. More like "God-centric."

And far from producing an arrogant attitude in seeing how this awesome Being called God could create such a vast universe, and yet show such love and concern for us puny, insignificant human beings, such an outlook produces deep humility. The universe was not made so much for us humans as it was to show the glory of God.

When God is taken out of the picture, man cannot help but be his own god. And thus, man-centered.

Amazing leap of logic IMO.
The universe is vast and unknowable and wonderful and we are just a speck of insignficance within it. A god doesn't explain it for me. That's it.
You start telling me that 'god' created a universe of trillions of stars and planets, and created a wet globe with a only third land, and created a land based animal on that world only that IS the meaning of the universe, then which is more human-centric?

 

[frg001]

In the words of sociologist Max Weber,
And it matters:
A universe not originating in personality is without intrinsic meaning or purpose: it is devoid of truth, beauty, and goodness except for the arbitrary projections of the observer. Wonder without assignment to a an originating personality is mere sentiment, a psychic illusion, and calling it “spiritual” is, at best, a philosophic distortion; at worst a descent into a world of nihilism and despair. It is like waking up in the morning, looking in the mirror, and seeing nothing.

Why?
I have no despair. I love life. I love the unknowable vastness of the universe. I don't need to anthropomorphise it for it to have meaning.

 

[Rolling_Stone]

Why?
I have no despair. I don't need to anthropomorphise it for it to have meaning.

Did I not say, "at best, a philosophic distortion"? You haven't taken it to the logical conclusion. Note also that I did not say "in a personality." That would be anthropomorphizing. I said, "in personality." There's a big difference.

Did I even suggest that you do not love life or the "unknowable vastness of the universe"? I said, it's mere "sentiment, a psychic illusion, and calling it “spiritual” is, at best, a philosophic distortion." It's not rational at all.

 

[frg001]

Did I not say, "at best, a philosophic distortion"? You haven't taken it to the logical conclusion. Note also that I did not say "in a personality." That would be anthropomorphizing. I said, "in personality." There's a big difference.

Do you mind explaining the difference. For me the use of the word 'personality' is either correct, and you are anthropomorphising, or incorrect.

Did I even suggest that you do not love life or the "unknowable vastness of the universe"? I said, it's mere "sentiment, a psychic illusion, and calling it “spiritual” is, at best, a philosophic distortion." It's not rational at all.

[/quote]
And that was the reason for the OP, and I followed up with 'for want of a better word' - The only word I currently have for the feeling is 'spiritual' - Give me a better one...Please

 

[blackout]

And that was the reason for the OP, and I followed up with 'for want of a better word' - The only word I currently have for the feeling is 'spiritual' - Give me a better one...Please

maybe "elation"?
"etherial lightness"?

What does the feeling remind you of?

 

[eudaimonia]

It's certainly a good feeling, sometimes (as now) but not always brought on by alcohol, or other, and the only word I know is 'spiritual'... Is there a better word for the likes of me maybe?

No, the right word is spiritual! You are a spiritual atheist, as am I.

Just think of "spirit" as natural human consciousness, if that helps you avoid any needless supernatural connotations.

I have to side with Abraham Maslow on this one... there is nothing wrong with atheists having such experiences, and they may be understood in a natural way.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Quath]

I don't see atheism as human centric except in ethical situations. If you look at the human perspective of the universe from a scientific viewpoint, it has always been making humans meeker than religious interpretations.

It pulled humans from being the center of the universe. It showed that humans are not the pinacle of creation. By evolution, anything alive today is a winner such as viruses and ants. Astronomy shows that humanity's home is just a small piece of a vastly huge space. Organic chemistry showed that people are made of the same stuff that "dead" things are made from. Psychology, sociology and artificial intelligence research shows that human intelligence is complex but obeys ordinary physical laws and algorithms. Atheism just wraps up a lot of this by saying that we are not the favored creatures of an infinitely powerful being.

So in a sense, humanity is much diminished by atheism and science. But atheist offsets this by saying that humans do matter to us and we have one life to live, so lets do the best we can knowing that there is no God to reward or punish us for what we do. Lets wonder at what we have and what we are and work to make things as good as we can so we would be happy to be birn in such a world.

 

[Rolling_Stone]

Do you mind explaining the difference. For me the use of the word 'personality' is either correct, and you are anthropomorphising, or incorrect.

Human beings have personality; the Essence of All That Is is personality. That puts the latter in a whole other category, one that we can't properly conceive, let alone understand. Maybe calling the One a "transpersonal" reality would be more accurate. Your kind of wonder and sentiment toward the universe can never be more than a projection of emotions while recognizing the centrality of personality offers communion. The former is a philosophic fantasy without a conceptual foundation; the latter an experiential reality no matter how primitive the concept.

And that was the reason for the OP, and I followed up with 'for want of a better word' - The only word I currently have for the feeling is 'spiritual' - Give me a better one...Please

How about "make-believe"?

 

[Rolling_Stone]

Astronomy shows that humanity's home is just a small piece of a vastly huge space.

It also put man back in the center (the center of expanding space is the space you occupy.)

Organic chemistry showed that people are made of the same stuff that "dead" things are made from. Psychology, sociology and artificial intelligence research shows that human intelligence is complex but obeys ordinary physical laws and algorithms. Atheism just wraps up a lot of this by saying that we are not the favored creatures of an infinitely powerful being.

A wonderful and powerful description indeed! Too bad it doesn't explain
anything, especially YOU.

So in a sense, humanity is much diminished by atheism and science. But atheist offsets this by saying that humans do matter to us and we have one life to live, so lets do the best we can knowing that there is no God to reward or punish us for what we do. Lets wonder at what we have and what we are and work to make things as good as we can so we would be happy to be born in such a world.

Not very realistic, but okay. It's your fantasy. If it's my pleasure and to my advantage to murder people, why not? If I and everyone else are nothing more than complex collections of atoms and everything is determined by algorithms (a) it doesn't matter what I do because values are arbitrary (projections) and (b) there's no real choice in the matter.

"More consequences for life and death follow from the affirmation or denial of God than from any other basic question. (Mortimer Adler)

 

[Quath]

It also put man back in the center (the center of expanding space is the space you occupy.)

Well, many models of the Big Bang says that there is no center to the universe. We are in no way a special part of the universe.

A wonderful and powerful description indeed! Too bad it doesn't explain anything, especially YOU.

I am not sure what you mean. Do you think that psychology, sociology, etc has not explained anything?

Not very realistic, but okay. It's your fantasy. If it's my pleasure and to my advantage to murder people, why not? If I and everyone else are nothing more than complex collections of atoms and everything is determined by algorithms (a) it doesn't matter what I do because values are arbitrary (projections) and (b) there's no real choice in the matter.

Is it really your advantage? I would think that spending my life in jail would be to a disadvantage.

But say I lived long ago when the police were not so competent. I would still have to worry about someone finding out (and forming a posse). I would also need a motive since murder would tend to go against my desire to be lazy.

In the end, what I have to choose is to work with humanity and reap its benefits or try to live apart. Most people decide that living with humanity far outweights its disadvantages (like being able to kill others that get on your nerves).

Are you saying that the only reason you are not a cold blooded murderer is because you read the Ten Commandments?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Ok.
I am pretty much a nailed on fundamentalist atheist.

What are the fundamentals of atheism?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Maybe you're having an entirely new realisation...

Or a flashback.

 

[Rolling_Stone]

Well, many models of the Big Bang says that there is no center to the universe. We are in no way a special part of the universe.

Hehehe...no center because everywhere is the center. The terms are equivalent and often used interchangeably.

I am not sure what you mean. Do you think that psychology, sociology, etc has not explained anything?

There's considerable difference between a description of what goes on and an explanation.

Is it really your advantage? I would think that spending my life in jail would be to a disadvantage.

But say I lived long ago when the police were not so competent. I would still have to worry about someone finding out (and forming a posse). I would also need a motive since murder would tend to go against my desire to be lazy.

In the end, what I have to choose is to work with humanity and reap its benefits or try to live apart. Most people decide that living with humanity far outweights its disadvantages (like being able to kill others that get on your nerves).

That's a non sequitur. I clearly said if was my pleasure and advantage.

Are you saying that the only reason you are not a cold blooded murderer is because you read the Ten Commandments?

LOL! Of course not. What makes you think it is?

 

[Somkid]

Rolling_Stone, I recognized your avatar as we have many of those in the countryside here generally for the transportation of farm personal. My avatar is Tiger Island where each monk is assigned a tiger as his friend they actually match personalities between the monk and the tiger. One of the monks I know is allergic to perfume the tiger he is matched with strongly dislikes perfume, I also know a lazy monk that likes to sleep in meditation you can imagine how his tiger is. My feelings are all natural perhaps I suppress them quite a bit which can be unnatural but that is my chosen path. It is possible to tame the wildest animal when one has a clear mind.

 

[Rolling_Stone]

Rolling_Stone, I recognized your avatar as we have many of those in the countryside here generally for the transportation of farm personal. My avatar is Tiger Island where each monk is assigned a tiger as his friend they actually match personalities between the monk and the tiger. One of the monks I know is allergic to perfume the tiger he is matched with strongly dislikes perfume, I also know a lazy monk that likes to sleep in meditation you can imagine how his tiger is. My feelings are all natural perhaps I suppress them quite a bit which can be unnatural but that is my chosen path. It is possible to tame the wildest animal when one has a clear mind.

Cool! That is fascinating! And agree about taming the wildest animal with a clear mind. "The keys to heaven are in the depths of hell" is reference to the refining fires of in-depth experience.

My path is to the plunge right in. The hard part is learning how not to resist the process, for resistence creates the "hell."

 

[frg001]

What are the fundamentals of atheism?

lol
Maybe a loose use of the word.
But I absolutely believe there is no god/creator/divine being.
To the same extent there is no flying teapot/spaghetti monster etc
Everything in and about the universe has a scientific explanation, we are just not evolved enough yet to 'get it' all yet.
The human body(or any other animal) is no more than an organic machine.
In fact humans are no more deserving of the ownership of the planet than any other animal. Where sharks, lions, crocodiles have evolved physically, primates with us at the top have evolved mentally. etc.