• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Spiritual Totalitarianism

Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
I was listening to a Larry Chapp discussion on YouTube about pope Francis, Fiducia Supplicans and other related issues. I went on to glance at the comment section and saw a post that struck me as a profound statement on a major issue within the Catholic Church. This is what they posted:

The current model of the magisterium is why I left the Church. The "shut up and obey even the non-definitive teachings" model may have worked when a pope maybe wrote an encyclical every century, and even then we're talking like maybe 9 bullet points per encyclical. Now the popes are cranking out novellas with +40 bullet points on topics ranging from economics, immigration, weapons manufacturers, Dante, environmentalism, social media, and on and on. Turns out "faith and morals" are a whole lot more elastic than the brochure states. Very quickly, anyone with any sense realizes that to give obsequium religiosum to all of this is not only an impossible task, but an extremely dehumanizing task as well. Welcome to the Catholic Church, please turn your brain off at the door as it won't be necessary, just read this latest screed from the pope.
The Catholic Church demands that its members give deference and religious assent to its teaching office. Which makes sense: the Catholic Church is a hieratical church after all. But this authority to teach and bind is not a positivistic one. The teaching authority (the Magisterium) is bound to divine revelation and sacred tradition. A pope cannot teach whatever the heck he wants; he can only teach what has been passed down to him.

That was the idea at least, until Vatican II broke it all.

With the conclusion of Vatican II, much of what defined Catholic practice (and by extension belief) was overturned overnight. With a stroke of a pope's pen [Paul VI] the liturgy which had defined worship in the Roman Rite for centuries was suddenly gone. Latin? Gone... Meatless Fridays? Gone... And while I agree that the implementation of Vatican II was hijacked to go much further than what council fathers themselves had envisioned, they and the pope [Paul VI] nonetheless did little to nothing to correct any of it. That they took it upon themselves to rewrite the religious practice of tens, if not hundreds of millions of people speaks to the arrogance of that era. And anyone who objected was told to shut up and obey.

For most of the Church's history, the only means of long-distance communication was a man on a horse or a ship. The input the pope would have had on a typical Catholic's practice (even for the clergy) would have been near non-existant. The limits of communication meant that reforms were not only rare but took centuries to implement. In practice the pope has never wielded more actionable authority than he does now. Which given the modern Church's more pastoral, less monarchal tone is quite ironic.

Instant mass communication is causing the whole system to crack under its own weight. When one pope [Benedict XVI] liberalizes the use of Tridentine Mass teaching that the old liturgy is a sacred treasure never to be abrogated, only for the next pope [Francis] to limit that same Mass as a dangerous threat to the Church's unity you have a serious problem. When a pope [Francis] can turn around and claim that relationships the Church has always condemned as sinful can now be blessed you have a problem. The problem is that the Church's own authority structure is reducing practice and even orthodoxy to the will of a single man. The deposit of faith becomes a legal fiction.

To demand unquestioning obedience to a teaching authority that has become increasingly brazen in granting itself the right to redefine a faith's practice and even moral doctrine according to the whims of whoever happens to be the pope is spiritual totalitarianism. It reduces Catholicism to a personality cult.
 
Last edited:

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
I was listening to a Larry Chapp discussion on YouTube about pope Francis, Fiducia Supplicans and other related issues. I went on to glance at the comment section and saw a post that struck me as a profound statement on a major issue within the Catholic Church. This is what they posted:

The current model of the magisterium is why I left the Church. The "shut up and obey even the non-definitive teachings" model may have worked when a pope maybe wrote an encyclical every century, and even then we're talking like maybe 9 bullet points per encyclical. Now the popes are cranking out novellas with +40 bullet points on topics ranging from economics, immigration, weapons manufacturers, Dante, environmentalism, social media, and on and on. Turns out "faith and morals" are a whole lot more elastic than the brochure states. Very quickly, anyone with any sense realizes that to give obsequium religiosum to all of this is not only an impossible task, but an extremely dehumanizing task as well. Welcome to the Catholic Church, please turn your brain off at the door as it won't be necessary, just read this latest screed from the pope.
The Catholic Church demands that its members give deference and religious assent to its teaching office. Which makes sense: the Catholic Church is a hieratical church after all. But this authority to teach and bind is not a positivistic one. The teaching authority (the Magisterium) is bound to divine revelation and sacred tradition. A pope cannot teach whatever the heck he wants; he can only teach what has been passed down to him.

That was the idea at least, until Vatican II broke it all.

With the conclusion of Vatican II, much of what defined Catholic practice (and by extension belief) was overturned overnight. With a stroke of a pope's pen [Paul VI] the liturgy which had defined worship in the Roman Rite for centuries was suddenly gone. Latin? Gone... Meatless Fridays? Gone... And while I agree that the implementation of Vatican II was hijacked to go much further than what council fathers themselves had envisioned, they and the pope [Paul VI] nonetheless did little to nothing to correct any of it. That they took it upon themselves to rewrite the religious practice of tens, if not hundreds of millions of people speaks to the arrogance of that era. And anyone who objected was told to shut up and obey.

For most of the Church's history, the only means of long-distance communication was a man on a horse or a ship. The input the pope would have had on a typical Catholic's practice (even for the clergy) would have been near non-existant. The limits of communication meant that reforms were not only rare but took centuries to implement. In practice the pope has never wielded more actionable authority than he does now. Which given the modern Church's more pastoral, less monarchal tone is quite ironic.

Instant mass communication is causing the whole system to crack under its own weight. When one pope [Benedict XVI] liberalizes the use of Tridentine Mass teaching that the old liturgy is a sacred treasure never to be abrogated, only for the next pope [Francis] to limit that same Mass as a dangerous threat to the Church's unity you have a serious problem. When a pope [Francis] can turn around and claim that relationships the Church has always condemned as sinful can now be blessed you have a problem. The problem is that the Church's own authority structure is reducing practice and even orthodoxy to the will of a single man. The deposit of faith becomes a legal fiction.

To demand unquestioning obedience to a teaching authority that has become increasingly brazen in granting itself the right to redefine a faith's practice and even moral doctrine according to the whims of whoever happens to be the pope is spiritual totalitarianism. It reduces Catholicism to a personality cult.
This is the reason why God renews religion from age to age because man adds dogmas and teachings not in the original revelation thus muddying the water of life so to speak. The infallibility of the pope was never a teaching of Christ so no one is bound to obey any of his laws.

As we can see the popes all have different and sometimes conflicting views and as they are not Prophets they can and have been easily corrupted. So I’m not surprised because of the changes in the church, because all these people making the decisions are human beings and they have no mandate from God at all or from Christ. They’re not acting according to any covenant they are just following their own feelings and so we shouldn’t bother obeying them.

On the other hand if it were Jesus or Moses or Baha’u’llah then I would unhesitatingly obey them with question as They are the Spokesmen of God not just ordinary fallible people like the error prone popes.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Lol at it only being the current model that is spiritual totalitarianism.
Like could you be a catholic and firmly believe and express that Jesus was not born of a Virgin, did not resurrect, and was not the messiah of the Jews?

If one genuinely doesn't want spiritual totalitarianism non-religious spirituality is a better option in my view.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Lol at it only being the current model that is spiritual totalitarianism.
Like could you be a catholic and firmly believe and express that Jesus was not born of a Virgin, did not resurrect, and was not the messiah of the Jews?

If one genuinely doesn't want spiritual totalitarianism join non-religious spirituality in my view.
I'm convinced that a lot of people enjoy being told what to do in religion, and many like to be ordered around as followers rather than leaders.
 

GardenLady

Active Member
The infallibility of the pope was never a teaching of Christ so no one is bound to obey any of his laws.

As I understand it (as a moderately informed former Catholic), the idea behind papal infallibility is that Jesus said the Holy Spirit would guide the church, thus protecting it from errors in faith and morals. It is not the person of the pope who is infallible, but the office of the pope protected by the Holy Spirit. I'm not defending the doctrine, just giving what I think is the rationale behind it.
 

Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
Like could you be a catholic and firmly believe and express that Jesus was not born of a Virgin, did not resurrect, and was not the messiah of the Jews?
Reason would tell you that you cannot be a Christian and deny core Christian claims.

As I understand it (as a moderately informed former Catholic), the idea behind papal infallibility is that Jesus said the Holy Spirit would guide the church, thus protecting it from errors in faith and morals. It is not the person of the pope who is infallible, but the office of the pope protected by the Holy Spirit. I'm not defending the doctrine, just giving what I think is the rationale behind it.
Correct. The Church claims that the pope will never bind the faithful to heresy in either faith or morals. This is due to a divine guarantee given to Saint Peter by Christ. Matthew 16:18-19.

This is why pope Francis has caused so much consternation within the Church. The pattern of his pontificate has been to empower a progressive faction who seek to redefine moral theology to align with the desires of the secular west. He has reanimated the rotting corpse of 1970's liberal Catholicism and unleashed it upon the faithful. So even if this pope hasn't formally taught anything that is outright heretical, it is nonetheless obvious where his sympathies lie. A pope who empowers the heterodox creates an obvious crisis of faith given the Church's claims about the papacy.

This is the reason why God renews religion from age to age because man adds dogmas and teachings not in the original revelation thus muddying the water of life so to speak. The infallibility of the pope was never a teaching of Christ so no one is bound to obey any of his laws.
I reject the bolded premise outright. I reject Islam outright as a false religion created by a fraud who used his claims to prophethood to increase his access to wealth and women. And if Islam is a bogus religion, then the Baha'i Faith is by logical necessity also a bogus religion because its claims assume the authenticity of Islam.

As we can see the popes all have different and sometimes conflicting views and as they are not Prophets they can and have been easily corrupted. So I’m not surprised because of the changes in the church, because all these people making the decisions are human beings and they have no mandate from God at all or from Christ. They’re not acting according to any covenant they are just following their own feelings and so we shouldn’t bother obeying them.

On the other hand if it were Jesus or Moses or Baha’u’llah then I would unhesitatingly obey them with question as They are the Spokesmen of God not just ordinary fallible people like the error prone popes.
I fully admit that the Catholic Church is in crisis and that this crisis (and this pontificate especially) has significantly damaged my faith in Christianity.

But that the Church is in crisis doesn't mean the Baha'i Faith is credible. I would sooner reject all religion that join a fringe offshoot of an offshoot of Shia Islam.
 
Last edited:

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
As I understand it (as a moderately informed former Catholic), the idea behind papal infallibility is that Jesus said the Holy Spirit would guide the church, thus protecting it from errors in faith and morals. It is not the person of the pope who is infallible, but the office of the pope protected by the Holy Spirit. I'm not defending the doctrine, just giving what I think is the rationale behind it.
As I understand it, papal "infallibility" or ex cathedra is very seldom used. I don't think Pope Francis, for example, has ever issued such a statement.

This is why pope Francis has caused so much consternation within the Church. The pattern of his pontificate has been to empower a progressive faction who seek to redefine moral theology to align with the desires of the secular west. He has reanimated the rotting corpse of 1970's liberal Catholicsm and unleashed it upon the faithful. So even if this pope hasn't formally taught anything outright heretical, it is nonetheless obvious where his sympathies lie. A pope who empowers the heterodox creates an obvious crisis of faith given the Church's claims about the papacy.
Ok. You don't like what Pope Francis has been writing. That's your prerogative, of course. Others disagree of course.
 

GardenLady

Active Member
I fully admit that the Catholic Church is in crisis and that this crisis (and this pontificate especially) has significantly damaged my faith in Christianity.

Why would one human, or one institution, damage your faith in Christianity. How would statements you consider "heterodox" undermine your faith in the words of Jesus in the Gospels. Do we really need more than the "red letters" (words of Jesus) to retain faith in Christianity?
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I can't help but find it ironic that Vatican II, among all events in the long history of Catholicism, is called "totalitarian".

I can only assume that here we are dealing with expectations that I do not find particularly reasonable nor realistic.

The way I see it, it can hardly be claimed that recent Popes or recent Vatican structure are any more "totalitarian" than any of their predecessors; if anything, quite the opposite is true.

I don't dispute that the ICAR is suffering under its own weight. But I have to point out that the challenges that come with improved travel, recording media and communications in general are not really avoidable, and there is little in the way of arguments to attempt to present a more traditionalistic approach as somehow less totalitarist than the efforts of the Vatican II, Pope Francis and some of those who came between them.

Far as I can see, the OP is simply holding very unrealistic expectations of how a Church can have the extent of modern day ICAR while also keeping itself relevant and worthy.

Then again, I am no Catholic, even if my birth parents and some other people very rudely decided on my stead that I should behave as if I were for quite a few years without as much as asking me if I saw any sense in that. It may well be that it is not worth attempting to keep the ICAR relevant; the weight of so many centuries can't be resolved without difficult choices that will indeed displease some.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Reason would tell you that you cannot be a Christian and deny core Christian claims.
Precisely why it was always spiritual totalitarianism, you have your beliefs dictated to you wholly unlike the spiritual but not religious in my view.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
As I understand it (as a moderately informed former Catholic), the idea behind papal infallibility is that Jesus said the Holy Spirit would guide the church, thus protecting it from errors in faith and morals. It is not the person of the pope who is infallible, but the office of the pope protected by the Holy Spirit. I'm not defending the doctrine, just giving what I think is the rationale behind it.

It's only been used twice.

BTW, I'm not a fan of it by any stretch of the imagination.
 
Top