Something interesting I found on the Baha'i Faith

[TransmutingSoul]

This is the only text I know of that does not assume that the couple are man and woman, just "two parties."

There's two ways of reading this: that only people who can procreate may marry (which is why old people and infertile people cannot marry - right?) or that having children is desirable, and having them within a marriage is especially desirable. Naturally same-sex couples can raise children, and now -- but not in Baha'u'llah's time -- they can also enter into wedlock. As I read the text, they should do so, if they are Bahais.

There are many quotes that assume a couple will be a man and a woman, but none I think that say that it can only be a man and a woman. The Aqdas inheritance rule assumes that the deceased is a Bahai man who is a property owner, but we do not deduce that Bahai women cannot die, or cannot own property. Rather we understand that Baha'u'llah is using a simplifying assumption to avoid specifying every case, leaving it to the reader to apply the same principles in other cases. For example, that when a woman dies her clothes and other personal effects go (unless otherwise specified in a Will) to the daughters and not the sons, which is the inverse of what Baha'u'llah says for the case when a man dies. The simplifying assumption does not exclude every other possibility, but it does specify what happens in the specific case used as an example.

Sen, it will always be your choice on how you see it.

Everyone has their own internal battles to fight, to try to find God within, with God's Laws and not our self.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Hi Tony, Maybe consider that a small shift in your wording would better reflect your intentions?

If there is no gender intended in your comments, using the word "humanity" would better represent your message?

It seems though that you are opposed to this because it reflects a "new age", "political correctness", and a "sexist agenda"? Respectfully, I think you should leap-frog over all of that. Just replace the word "man-kind" with "humanity" if that's what you mean. It's a simple small change that would prevent misunderstandings and hurt feelings?

Thank you for the input. Maybe we we need a new world language? At least then a word will have its meaning for all people.

The use of man/men to describe mankind is used throughout the Baha'i translations, as is Humanity and Mankind;

"All men have been created to carry forward an ever-advancing civilization. ..." (Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, CXXXI).

That passage means women and men. I can not change that language. I see it is not that, that does need to change, If one knows there is no intent of predudice or discrimination.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

I'm surprised that we haven't had a woman president yet. England has had two women Prime Ministers. We're late.

That one quote from the NT that says women should be silent and not have a position of authority over men has kept women down for centuries. But it's getting harder and harder for old white men to keep control. But, it sure seems that they think that they know what's best for everyone else.

 

[Neutral Name]

That one quote from the NT that says women should be silent and not have a position of authority over men has kept women down for centuries. But it's getting harder and harder for old white men to keep control. But, it sure seems that they think that they know what's best for everyone else.

You're my new best friend CG! My sister says that 5 old white men are running the world. There seems to be some truth to that. I do love that young people seem to be more impartial.

 

[Vinayaka]

It sounds like every other religion to me. Why does religion have so much negativity?

Beats me.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

I didn't comment about you thinking it was right or wrong. I just commented on how those folks involved in the Baha'i study/debate often do feel that way. I'm neutral in it, as are you I believe. It's a study of human behaviour.

Ok.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

I await his response as to why he posted such a link.

To see whether or not if what he said can be contradicted by someone of the faith, and if there is demonstrable evidence through some scriptural interpretation and or physical verification that what was said by the blogger was wrong. I'm not knowledgable about this faith, but I would expect someone of the Baha'i faith to contradict this individual's viewpoint because after all he did supply some evidence.

Has the other side yet been considered?

Which why I asked for the Baha'i opinion

 

[Epic Beard Man]

How? They are false, or have a solid foundation in justice and reason, that is how.

Then prove him wrong. Clearly saying he is wrong does not contradict his/her claims.

What one needs to consider is that a lot of the comments made by Baha'u'llah of condemnation, are directed at the leaders of religion.

So when the Bab refers to "covenent breakers" was he also referring to Muslims who rejected him?

It is those leaders in each age that then persecute God's Messengers, all the while saying they are following God. Those that blindly follow those leaders, without using their own free choice, are likewise accused.

If one is fair and just, the accusations are not applicable.

So does this apply to Muslims who outright reject Baha'ism as heterodoxical religion that came out of Islam?

 

[Epic Beard Man]

The Bab gave a new Message from God

There lies the problem especially if Baha'is consider Muhammad a prophet of God. Muhammad clearly said he is THE seal of the prophets and that anything else after is a fabrication of truth.

Muhammad was the seal of prophecy, the Bab was the Gate to the fulfillment of all the promises given by God.

This would be referred to as Bid'ah in Islam. What it seems the Baha'i is doing is reinterpreting meanings. What I mean is, philosophically there is a problem accepting the core aspects of Islam including Muhammad's prophet hood yet, having a separate idea of prophet hood of your own considering the strict idea that there is no successor after Muhammad in that regard.

Equality does not mean sameness.

No but in reference to having the ability in being involved in the so-called "House of Justice" a concept which would include equity, it begs the critique that it is hardly just to not include women.

The Message of Baha'u'llah is aimed at restoring that health.

So what say you in regards to the blogger's accusation that it is acceptable to desecrate the graves of covenant breakers?

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Most of the material from the blog is derived from this book.

It’s important to know the context.

Thank you for pointing that out?

Permission to access the original documents would need to be arranged through the appropriate channels as would be expected with any precious or historical archives.

But why?

Bahá’u’lláh’s half brother Mirza Yahya claimed leadership of the Baha’i Faith.

Subh-i-Azal - Wikipedia

Abdu’l-Baha’s half brother Mírzá Muhammad-Ali opposed his leadership.

Mírzá Muhammad `Alí - Wikipedia

Interesting...Is this what the blogger is referring to?

I’ve never come across such a statement from Bahá’u’lláh in the nearly 30 years I’ve been a Baha’i and can find no authentic reference for it.

There is a book out in which you've already listed the author as a controversial figure. The book references that remark.

What are these blunders on scientific matters?

He supplied a link in that remark you quoted.

The Baha’i Writings clearly establishes monogamy. This is a major change from Islam.

what did the blogger mean when he/she quoted that text?

I’m happy to discuss any criticism of the Baha’i Faith you wish.

Ok.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So does this apply to Muslims who outright reject Baha'ism as heterodoxical religion that came out of Islam?

Personally I see It applies to all people that take a side without a just investigation. The leaders of religion were very much to blame in the time of the Bab and Baha'u'llah. Those that then blindly followed their lead, also fell pray to a grievous error in the neglect of justice.

This is the age of reason and knowledge. No one has any excuse not to get to the bottom of all issues. Our heart determines what direction our search takes in Justice.

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

But why?

The writings of Bahá’u’lláh and the Bab are considered sacred for Baha’is. Access to writings would depend on distinguishing those who would be both respectful of the writings and have a legitimate purpose. I doubt if the Baha’is would be keen to provide access to one who would desecrate our writings.

The work of having the Baha’i writings translated into hundreds of languages is one of the priorities for our community.

http://bahai-library.com/pdf/compilations/compilation_warren_bahai_translation.pdf

It is clear the Universal House of Justice wants to ensure that any works translated are at a high standard.

Interesting...Is this what the blogger is referring to?

You would need to provide a link or reference to the blog you have quoted in your OP. I presume the author is Roger Spielberg.

https://www.quora.com/What-are-some-contradictions-in-the-Bahai-Faith

He doesn’t elaborate on what he means. It is not true that Bahá’u’lláh’s family were in constant conflict with each other and shunned one another.

How about members of Bahá’u’lláh’s family that promoted unity and exemplified Baha’i ideals?

`Abdu'l-Bahá - Wikipedia

Mírzá Mihdí - Wikipedia

Bahíyyih Khánum - Wikipedia

Ásíyih Khánum - Wikipedia

There is a book out in which you've already listed the author as a controversial figure. The book references that remark.

In regards the alleged contradictions with science there are about 8-9 pages in the book ‘Twelve Principles’. Let’s consider the first example. It is said Bahá’u’lláh claims that copper can be transmuted into gold. That certainly sounds very unscientific.

One relevant verse from the Writings is found in Gleanings:

XCVII. Consider the doubts which they who have joined partners with God have instilled into the hearts of the people of this land. "Is it ever possible," they ask, "for copper to be transmuted into gold?" Say, Yes, by my Lord, it is possible. Its secret, however, lieth hidden in Our Knowledge.

We will reveal it unto whom We will. Whoso doubteth Our power, let him ask the Lord his God, that He may disclose unto him the secret, and assure him of its truth. That copper can be turned into gold is in itself sufficient proof that gold can, in like manner, be transmuted into copper, if they be of them that can apprehend this truth. Every mineral can be made to acquire the density, form, and substance of each and every other mineral. The knowledge thereof is with Us in the Hidden Book.

Initially I wondered if this might be allegorical. However Shoghi Effendi comments in 1955:

Considering that a century ago, nobody knew the nature of matter, and couldn't split any kind of an atom, it should not surprise the scientist that ‘Abdu’l-Bahá states that copper can be transmuted into gold.

"There may come a time, for all we know, when the mass of many atoms can be changed by scientists. We have no way of proving or disproving at present the statement of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá. Just because we cannot demonstrate a contention in the Bahá’í Teachings does not mean the contention is not true.

"The same holds true of the statement of Bahá’u’lláh in the Íqán, regarding transmutation of copper into gold after seventy years, under certain conditions.

"We as Bahá’ís must assume that, as He had access to all knowledge, He was referring to a definite physical condition which theoretically might exist. Because we don't know what this condition is in scientific terms does not refute Bahá’u’lláh's statement at all.

"The Guardian hopes that Mr. … will not let so small a thing stand in his path. The principle of Faith is to accept anything the Manifestation of God says, once you have accepted Him as being the Manifestation. That is really the crux of the whole matter. It is a question of confidence.”

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, March 14, 1955)

Lights of Guidance/Explanation of Some Bahá’í Teachings - Bahaiworks, a library of works about the Bahá’í Faith

Well apparently with nuclear transmutation, lead can be turned into gold though it is far easier to turn gold into lead. Yes, Nuclear experiments have successfully transmuted lead into gold, but the expense far exceeds any gain.

Fact or Fiction?: Lead Can Be Turned into Gold

Maybe Bahá’u’lláh was right after all.

Another statement Bahá’u’lláh made as a likely reference to nuclear science was:

Strange and astonishing things exist in the earth but they are hidden from the minds and the understanding of men. These things are capable of changing the whole atmosphere of the earth and their contamination would prove lethal….

Bahá'í Reference Library - Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 24-25

Perhaps He was proved right about that one too.

He supplied a link in that remark you quoted.

It appears to be an unauthorised translation from a letter in Persian text written by Bahá’u’lláh called the Kitab-i-Badi. The work is yet to be translated into English. Critics of the Baha’i Faith often use their own translations or those of other critics of the Baha’i Faith. I consider them unreliable. The next question that usually gets asked is why hasn’t it been translated. Are you aware of the extent of Bahá’u’lláh’s writings compared to the Quran or Bible?

Bahá'u'lláh wrote many books, tablets and prayers, of which only a fraction has so far been translated into English. He revealed thousands of tablets with a total volume more than 70 times the size of the Qur'an and more than 15 times the size of the Bible.[21][24][25] Over 7000 tablets and other works have been collected of an estimated 15,000 texts.[24][26][27] However, relatively few have so far been translated and catalogued.[28]

Bahá'í literature - Wikipedia

Now consider the work involved with translating the Baha’i writings into scores of languages. However our critics will claim a conspiracy theory as to why this work and so many others are not yet translated.

what did the blogger mean when he/she quoted that text?

I’m not sure what the blogger was getting at. Maybe he was referring to Bahá’u’lláh having three wives and the laws specifically about monogamy being clarified and implemented after Bahá’u’lláh’s passing in 1892.

Wives of Baha'u'llah

Tell me @Epic Beard Man , why the interest in what critics have to say about the Baha’i Faith?

 

[Sen McGlinn]

... I would expect someone of the Baha'i faith to contradict this individual's viewpoint because after all he did supply some evidence.



Which why I asked for the Baha'i opinion

I don't think he presented evidence: he made a list of claims without any sources. There's no answer to that sort of "argument" . The only response is for you to go back to this individual and say "where's the evidence."
However the first point he makes is a dead giveaway. That the scriptures are locked away so no-one can see them: but in hi following points he claims that Abdu'l-Baha said this and Baha'u'llah said that. If he gave a source he would prove that the scriptures are not locked away; if he doesn't give a source he must admit - to be consistent with his first point - that all his other allegations are made up out of thin air. Or are we to suppose that he has been given unique access to books that are barred to all others?

 

[Sen McGlinn]

So when the Bab refers to "covenent breakers" was he also referring to Muslims who rejected him?

The first question is, did the Bab refer to "covenant breakers." It seems improbable, and I ran a quick scan and found nothing.
Second, having found a source, is to look at the context and see what the Bab was saying.

 

[Sen McGlinn]

what say you in regards to the blogger's accusation that it is acceptable to desecrate the graves of covenant breakers?

What's the evidence for this claim? That's the only response possible. But in this case I think you may be adding to what your anonymous source is telling you. Which grave is supposed to have been "desecrated" by Bahais?