Something interesting I found on the Baha'i Faith

[Epic Beard Man]

I'm curious after doing some research, but also found and interesting opinion (perhaps made by some blogger) which detailed some criticism regarding the Baha'i faith (See Below)

1. The Independent Investigation of Truth, Unfettered by Superstition or Tradition(yet somehow, most Baha’i scripture is locked up in Israel and no one can investigate Baha’ism in a correct manner)
2. The Oneness of Humanity(But the founder would insult his deniers and refer to them as donkeys pigs and ********: Baha’i Belief and Courtesy: Baha’u’llah Refers to Those that Deny Him as Animals, Pigs, Donkeys, Dogs, and ********)
3. Religion Must be the Source of Unity and Fellowship(Baha’u’llah’s family were in constant conflict and shunned each other)
4. Religion Must be in Conformity with Science and Reason(Ironically, the founders made numerous errors when speaking about scientific matters: See a list of blunders here)
5. The Removal of All Prejudice(yet non-Baha’i are considered as worthless pebbles: “My friends are the pearls of [this] order and all others are earthly pebbles . . . a single one of these (Baha’is) is more precious than a million others (non-Baha’is),” (Baha’u’llah))
6. The Equalization of the Means of Livelihood for All Humanity (except for thieves and those that are labelled as covenant breakers for disagreeing with Baha’i doctrines and are kicked out of the community)
7. Establishment of a Universal House of Justice and Supreme Tribunal (unfortunately, the house of justice turned out to be a dictatorship who handles all disagreement with an ironfist)
8. Universal Compulsory Education (the blunders of the leaders in simple scientific matters show that this is mere slogan)
9. A Universal Auxiliary Language (but they failed to introduce such a language)
10. The Equality of Men and Women (but Baha’is discriminate against the sexes in their laws)

11- Establishment of Universal Peace (this one is probably the biggest failure)

12- The World of Humanity is in the Need of the Breath of the Holy Spirit.

13-Baha'i claim on gender equality with a huge BUT:

The Universal House of Justice wrote on 8 January 1981:

Abdu'l-Bahá asserts: 'In this divine age the bounties of God have encompassed the world of women. Equality of men and women, except in some negligible instances, has been fully and categorically announced. Distinctions have bee utterly removed.' That men and women differ from one another in certain characteristics and functions is an inescapable fact of nature; the important thing is that He regards such inequalities as remain between the sexes as being 'negligible'.

One of these negligible instances is the exclusion of women from the Universal House of Justice—the infallible top-governing body of the Baha'i Faith.

14- The allowance of Bigamy:

"You asked about polygamy. According to the text (nass) of the Divine Book the right of having two wives is lawful and legal (ja'iz). This was never (abadan) prohibited, but it is legitimate and allowed (halal wa mubah). You should therefore not be unhappy, but take justice into your consideration so that you may be as just as possible. What has been said was that since justice is very difficult [to achieve], therefore tranquillity [calls for] one wife. But in your case, you should not be unhappy".

15- Baha'i allowing the desecration of "covenant breakers" grave

"ANNOUNCE BAHA'I WORLD REMOVAL FROM IMMEDIATE PRECINCTS HOLY SHRINE BAHA'U'LLAH REMAINS MIRZA DIYA'U'LLAH YOUNGER BROTHER MIRZA MUHAMMAD ALI HIS ACCOMPLICE IN EFFORTS SUBVERT FOUNDATIONS COVENANT GOD SOON AFTER ASCENSION BAHA'U'LLAH. THIS FINAL STEP IN PROCESS PURIFICATION SACRED INTERNATIONAL ENDOWMENTS FAITH IN BAHJI FROM PAST CONTAMINATION WAS PROVIDENTIALLY UNDERTAKEN"

Anyone Baha'i care to debate the opposite of this?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I'm curious after doing some research, but also found and interesting opinion (perhaps made by some blogger) which detailed some criticism regarding the Baha'i faith (See Below)

1. The Independent Investigation of Truth, Unfettered by Superstition or Tradition(yet somehow, most Baha’i scripture is locked up in Israel and no one can investigate Baha’ism in a correct manner)
2. The Oneness of Humanity(But the founder would insult his deniers and refer to them as donkeys pigs and ********: Baha’i Belief and Courtesy: Baha’u’llah Refers to Those that Deny Him as Animals, Pigs, Donkeys, Dogs, and ********)
3. Religion Must be the Source of Unity and Fellowship(Baha’u’llah’s family were in constant conflict and shunned each other)
4. Religion Must be in Conformity with Science and Reason(Ironically, the founders made numerous errors when speaking about scientific matters: See a list of blunders here)
5. The Removal of All Prejudice(yet non-Baha’i are considered as worthless pebbles: “My friends are the pearls of [this] order and all others are earthly pebbles . . . a single one of these (Baha’is) is more precious than a million others (non-Baha’is),” (Baha’u’llah))
6. The Equalization of the Means of Livelihood for All Humanity (except for thieves and those that are labelled as covenant breakers for disagreeing with Baha’i doctrines and are kicked out of the community)
7. Establishment of a Universal House of Justice and Supreme Tribunal (unfortunately, the house of justice turned out to be a dictatorship who handles all disagreement with an ironfist)
8. Universal Compulsory Education (the blunders of the leaders in simple scientific matters show that this is mere slogan)
9. A Universal Auxiliary Language (but they failed to introduce such a language)
10. The Equality of Men and Women (but Baha’is discriminate against the sexes in their laws)

11- Establishment of Universal Peace (this one is probably the biggest failure)

12- The World of Humanity is in the Need of the Breath of the Holy Spirit.

13-Baha'i claim on gender equality with a huge BUT:

The Universal House of Justice wrote on 8 January 1981:

Abdu'l-Bahá asserts: 'In this divine age the bounties of God have encompassed the world of women. Equality of men and women, except in some negligible instances, has been fully and categorically announced. Distinctions have bee utterly removed.' That men and women differ from one another in certain characteristics and functions is an inescapable fact of nature; the important thing is that He regards such inequalities as remain between the sexes as being 'negligible'.

One of these negligible instances is the exclusion of women from the Universal House of Justice—the infallible top-governing body of the Baha'i Faith.

14- The allowance of Bigamy:

"You asked about polygamy. According to the text (nass) of the Divine Book the right of having two wives is lawful and legal (ja'iz). This was never (abadan) prohibited, but it is legitimate and allowed (halal wa mubah). You should therefore not be unhappy, but take justice into your consideration so that you may be as just as possible. What has been said was that since justice is very difficult [to achieve], therefore tranquillity [calls for] one wife. But in your case, you should not be unhappy".

15- Baha'i allowing the desecration of "covenant breakers" grave

"ANNOUNCE BAHA'I WORLD REMOVAL FROM IMMEDIATE PRECINCTS HOLY SHRINE BAHA'U'LLAH REMAINS MIRZA DIYA'U'LLAH YOUNGER BROTHER MIRZA MUHAMMAD ALI HIS ACCOMPLICE IN EFFORTS SUBVERT FOUNDATIONS COVENANT GOD SOON AFTER ASCENSION BAHA'U'LLAH. THIS FINAL STEP IN PROCESS PURIFICATION SACRED INTERNATIONAL ENDOWMENTS FAITH IN BAHJI FROM PAST CONTAMINATION WAS PROVIDENTIALLY UNDERTAKEN"

Anyone Baha'i care to debate the opposite of this?

Why. The right answers are readily available and just as easy sourced, as was this view aimed at deception.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

By the way, thank you very much, as I have been longing for this day to begin.

The day when people see the Faith emerging from obscurity and is eroding with sound logic, the long held cherished doctrinal desires of many faiths.

Regards Tony

 

[danieldemol]

I'm curious after doing some research, but also found and interesting opinion (perhaps made by some blogger) which detailed some criticism regarding the Baha'i faith (See Below)

1. The Independent Investigation of Truth, Unfettered by Superstition or Tradition(yet somehow, most Baha’i scripture is locked up in Israel and no one can investigate Baha’ism in a correct manner)
2. The Oneness of Humanity(But the founder would insult his deniers and refer to them as donkeys pigs and ********: Baha’i Belief and Courtesy: Baha’u’llah Refers to Those that Deny Him as Animals, Pigs, Donkeys, Dogs, and ********)
3. Religion Must be the Source of Unity and Fellowship(Baha’u’llah’s family were in constant conflict and shunned each other)
4. Religion Must be in Conformity with Science and Reason(Ironically, the founders made numerous errors when speaking about scientific matters: See a list of blunders here)
5. The Removal of All Prejudice(yet non-Baha’i are considered as worthless pebbles: “My friends are the pearls of [this] order and all others are earthly pebbles . . . a single one of these (Baha’is) is more precious than a million others (non-Baha’is),” (Baha’u’llah))
6. The Equalization of the Means of Livelihood for All Humanity (except for thieves and those that are labelled as covenant breakers for disagreeing with Baha’i doctrines and are kicked out of the community)
7. Establishment of a Universal House of Justice and Supreme Tribunal (unfortunately, the house of justice turned out to be a dictatorship who handles all disagreement with an ironfist)
8. Universal Compulsory Education (the blunders of the leaders in simple scientific matters show that this is mere slogan)
9. A Universal Auxiliary Language (but they failed to introduce such a language)
10. The Equality of Men and Women (but Baha’is discriminate against the sexes in their laws)

11- Establishment of Universal Peace (this one is probably the biggest failure)

12- The World of Humanity is in the Need of the Breath of the Holy Spirit.

13-Baha'i claim on gender equality with a huge BUT:

The Universal House of Justice wrote on 8 January 1981:

Abdu'l-Bahá asserts: 'In this divine age the bounties of God have encompassed the world of women. Equality of men and women, except in some negligible instances, has been fully and categorically announced. Distinctions have bee utterly removed.' That men and women differ from one another in certain characteristics and functions is an inescapable fact of nature; the important thing is that He regards such inequalities as remain between the sexes as being 'negligible'.

One of these negligible instances is the exclusion of women from the Universal House of Justice—the infallible top-governing body of the Baha'i Faith.

14- The allowance of Bigamy:

"You asked about polygamy. According to the text (nass) of the Divine Book the right of having two wives is lawful and legal (ja'iz). This was never (abadan) prohibited, but it is legitimate and allowed (halal wa mubah). You should therefore not be unhappy, but take justice into your consideration so that you may be as just as possible. What has been said was that since justice is very difficult [to achieve], therefore tranquillity [calls for] one wife. But in your case, you should not be unhappy".

15- Baha'i allowing the desecration of "covenant breakers" grave

"ANNOUNCE BAHA'I WORLD REMOVAL FROM IMMEDIATE PRECINCTS HOLY SHRINE BAHA'U'LLAH REMAINS MIRZA DIYA'U'LLAH YOUNGER BROTHER MIRZA MUHAMMAD ALI HIS ACCOMPLICE IN EFFORTS SUBVERT FOUNDATIONS COVENANT GOD SOON AFTER ASCENSION BAHA'U'LLAH. THIS FINAL STEP IN PROCESS PURIFICATION SACRED INTERNATIONAL ENDOWMENTS FAITH IN BAHJI FROM PAST CONTAMINATION WAS PROVIDENTIALLY UNDERTAKEN"

Anyone Baha'i care to debate the opposite of this?

Since i’m not a Baha’i I won’t debate it, but would point out that in spite of any noted hypocrisies the principles themselves are worth saving, so I will repeat them here, and would urge you to consider the fact that the corrupt among the ulama of Islam are opposed to the principles of;

1. Independent investigation of truth
2. The oneness of humanity
3. That religion *should* be the source of friendliness and fellowship
4. Religion should conform to reason
5. The elimination of prejudice
6. This one sounds imaginary and i’ve never heard of it
7. Establishment of an elected world parliament (although I personally hold that such a parliament should be minimalist in it’s powers)
8. Universal compulsory education
9. A secondary language spoken all over the world
10. The equality of men and women
11. Establishment of global peace
12. Not necessary
13. Gender equality
14. Not applicable

 

[Samael_Khan]

No, as the right answers are readily available and just as easy sourced, as was this view aimed at deception.

Regards Tony

Can you please give us links to the correct answers?

 

[Samael_Khan]

I'm curious after doing some research, but also found and interesting opinion (perhaps made by some blogger) which detailed some criticism regarding the Baha'i faith (See Below)

1. The Independent Investigation of Truth, Unfettered by Superstition or Tradition(yet somehow, most Baha’i scripture is locked up in Israel and no one can investigate Baha’ism in a correct manner)
2. The Oneness of Humanity(But the founder would insult his deniers and refer to them as donkeys pigs and ********: Baha’i Belief and Courtesy: Baha’u’llah Refers to Those that Deny Him as Animals, Pigs, Donkeys, Dogs, and ********)
3. Religion Must be the Source of Unity and Fellowship(Baha’u’llah’s family were in constant conflict and shunned each other)
4. Religion Must be in Conformity with Science and Reason(Ironically, the founders made numerous errors when speaking about scientific matters: See a list of blunders here)
5. The Removal of All Prejudice(yet non-Baha’i are considered as worthless pebbles: “My friends are the pearls of [this] order and all others are earthly pebbles . . . a single one of these (Baha’is) is more precious than a million others (non-Baha’is),” (Baha’u’llah))
6. The Equalization of the Means of Livelihood for All Humanity (except for thieves and those that are labelled as covenant breakers for disagreeing with Baha’i doctrines and are kicked out of the community)
7. Establishment of a Universal House of Justice and Supreme Tribunal (unfortunately, the house of justice turned out to be a dictatorship who handles all disagreement with an ironfist)
8. Universal Compulsory Education (the blunders of the leaders in simple scientific matters show that this is mere slogan)
9. A Universal Auxiliary Language (but they failed to introduce such a language)
10. The Equality of Men and Women (but Baha’is discriminate against the sexes in their laws)

11- Establishment of Universal Peace (this one is probably the biggest failure)

12- The World of Humanity is in the Need of the Breath of the Holy Spirit.

13-Baha'i claim on gender equality with a huge BUT:

The Universal House of Justice wrote on 8 January 1981:

Abdu'l-Bahá asserts: 'In this divine age the bounties of God have encompassed the world of women. Equality of men and women, except in some negligible instances, has been fully and categorically announced. Distinctions have bee utterly removed.' That men and women differ from one another in certain characteristics and functions is an inescapable fact of nature; the important thing is that He regards such inequalities as remain between the sexes as being 'negligible'.

One of these negligible instances is the exclusion of women from the Universal House of Justice—the infallible top-governing body of the Baha'i Faith.

14- The allowance of Bigamy:

"You asked about polygamy. According to the text (nass) of the Divine Book the right of having two wives is lawful and legal (ja'iz). This was never (abadan) prohibited, but it is legitimate and allowed (halal wa mubah). You should therefore not be unhappy, but take justice into your consideration so that you may be as just as possible. What has been said was that since justice is very difficult [to achieve], therefore tranquillity [calls for] one wife. But in your case, you should not be unhappy".

15- Baha'i allowing the desecration of "covenant breakers" grave

"ANNOUNCE BAHA'I WORLD REMOVAL FROM IMMEDIATE PRECINCTS HOLY SHRINE BAHA'U'LLAH REMAINS MIRZA DIYA'U'LLAH YOUNGER BROTHER MIRZA MUHAMMAD ALI HIS ACCOMPLICE IN EFFORTS SUBVERT FOUNDATIONS COVENANT GOD SOON AFTER ASCENSION BAHA'U'LLAH. THIS FINAL STEP IN PROCESS PURIFICATION SACRED INTERNATIONAL ENDOWMENTS FAITH IN BAHJI FROM PAST CONTAMINATION WAS PROVIDENTIALLY UNDERTAKEN"

Anyone Baha'i care to debate the opposite of this?

I had an interesting conversation with Jim when discussing dangerous cults. He said that the criteria I was using would qualify the Bahai'i as a dangerous cult because of their shunning of covenant breakers and that writings on the Bahai'i faith must be approved by a certain body. But when looking at the write ups it became confusing as the reasons qualifying someone as a covenant breaker is dependent on the body who judges them and I don't know what their criteria is. Their information control is about their authorized writings but there doesn't seem to be an objection to viewing material from opposition.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Can you please give us links to the correct answers?

All the writings are available here;

They are the source and authentic.

Bahá’í Reference Library | The Bahá’í Faith

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I had an interesting conversation with Jim when discussing dangerous cults. He said that the criteria I was using would qualify the Bahai'i as a dangerous cult because of their shunning of covenant breakers and that writings on the Bahai'i faith must be approved by a certain body. But when looking at the write ups it became confusing as the reasons qualifying someone as a covenant breaker is dependent on the body who judges them and I don't know what their criteria is. Their information control is about their authorized writings but there doesn't seem to be an objection to viewing material from opposition.

The criteria is clear and it now is the Universal House of Justice that decide upon these matters. One who accepts the Messenger of God, then turns against them to attempt to take power for themselves. The Covenant by Baha'u'llah in turn appoints Abdul'baha, then Shoghi Effendi and then the Universal House of Justice. This covenant is what maintains the unity of the Baha'i Faith. All that try to cause division by challenging the covernant will not succeed. Many attempt has been made and a few still linger around.

Regards Tony

 

[Samael_Khan]

All the writings are available here;

They are the source and authentic.

Bahá’í Reference Library | The Bahá’í Faith

Regards Tony

Thanks.

 

[Samael_Khan]

The criteria is clear and it now is the Universal House of Justice that decide upon these matters. One who accepts the Messenger of God, then turns against them to attempt to take power for themselves. The Covenant by Baha'u'llah in turn appoints Abdul'baha, then Shoghi Effendi and then the Universal House of Justice. This covenant is what maintains the unity of the Baha'i Faith. All that try to cause division by challenging the covernant will not succeed. Many attempt has been made and a few still linger around.

Regards Tony

Cool. So then one can leave the bahai'i but not try to usurp control of the group?

 

[Vinayaka]

I'm curious after doing some research, but also found and interesting opinion (perhaps made by some blogger) which detailed some criticism regarding the Baha'i faith (See Below)

So all you can do is read everything you can from all sides and decide which makes more sense to you. It's a polarized topic with lots of mud-slinging all around. "you're the deceptive one" is tossed about as much as "I'm right and you're wrong.'

You will come to a conclusion, it will be neither right nor wrong, but it will be yours, not someone else's.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Why. The right answers are readily available and just as easy sourced, as was this view aimed at deception.

Regards Tony

Anyone of any faith can say the same again, how can you dispute these claims? Apparently this so-called blogger proclaims to have studied religion and in looking at some of his writings he has the same criticisms of Islam and other religions.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Since i’m not a Baha’i I won’t debate it, but would point out that in spite of any noted hypocrisies the principles themselves are worth saving, so I will repeat them here, and would urge you to consider the fact that the corrupt among the ulama of Islam are opposed to the principles of;

1. Independent investigation of truth
2. The oneness of humanity
3. That religion *should* be the source of friendliness and fellowship
4. Religion should conform to reason
5. The elimination of prejudice
6. This one sounds imaginary and i’ve never heard of it
7. Establishment of an elected world parliament (although I personally hold that such a parliament should be minimalist in it’s powers)
8. Universal compulsory education
9. A secondary language spoken all over the world
10. The equality of men and women
11. Establishment of global peace
12. Not necessary
13. Gender equality
14. Not applicable

That is an opinion not a contradiction of what was presented here.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

I had an interesting conversation with Jim when discussing dangerous cults. He said that the criteria I was using would qualify the Bahai'i as a dangerous cult because of their shunning of covenant breakers and that writings on the Bahai'i faith must be approved by a certain body. But when looking at the write ups it became confusing as the reasons qualifying someone as a covenant breaker is dependent on the body who judges them and I don't know what their criteria is. Their information control is about their authorized writings but there doesn't seem to be an objection to viewing material from opposition.

I'm still concerned about a few things myself:

1) The Bab was trying to reinterpret Shia Islam in Iran through the process of proclaiming divine revelation (a no no especially considering Muhammad is the "seal of the prophets") which ultimately lead to his execution.

2)The Bab was at least according to my research considered a messianic figure foretold by previous scriptures, something akin to what was stated regarding Muhammad.

3) Of all the criticisms of the Baha'i one cannot register as a Baha'i if you are involved in a same sex marriage.

4) Baha'i's consider homosexuality as a "handicap" that can be overcome.

5) Women are ineligible to serve in the "House of Justice"

6) "According to these critics, `Abdu’l-Bahā said: "Although women and men share the same capacities and abilities, there is definitely no doubt that men are superior and stronger. Even in animals like pigeons, sparrows, peacocks, and other [birds] this advantage is visible,"[19][20] `Abdu’l-Bahā made the comments in light of being questioned as to why God didn't send any female prophets." (I'm not privy to Wikipedia but I found this part interesting)....

Too many questions.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

So all you can do is read everything you can from all sides and decide which makes more sense to you.

The thread is about me finding something interesting from a blogger who proclaimed to be a researcher of various religions. I never said it was right or wrong, I merely begged for someone of the faith to contradict his claims.

It's a polarized topic with lots of mud-slinging all around.

Right and none of the threads regarding Islam and Christianity don't do the same? Clearly the listed position is an opinion one I stated in the beginning (see my mentioning of the blogger remark). I find it hypocritical of you to make such remarks considering that there are countless Islamic bashing threads to which you yourself partook in.

 

[Vinayaka]

The thread is about me finding something interesting from a blogger who proclaimed to be a researcher of various religions. I never said it was right or wrong, I merely begged for someone of the faith to contradict his claims.

I didn't comment about you thinking it was right or wrong. I just commented on how those folks involved in the Baha'i study/debate often do feel that way. I'm neutral in it, as are you I believe. It's a study of human behaviour.

 

[Samael_Khan]

I'm still concerned about a few things myself:

1) The Bab was trying to reinterpret Shia Islam in Iran through the process of proclaiming divine revelation (a no no especially considering Muhammad is the "seal of the prophets") which ultimately lead to his execution.

2)The Bab was at least according to my research considered a messianic figure foretold by previous scriptures, something akin to what was stated regarding Muhammad.

3) Of all the criticisms of the Baha'i one cannot register as a Baha'i if you are involved in a same sex marriage.

4) Baha'i's consider homosexuality as a "handicap" that can be overcome.

5) Women are ineligible to serve in the "House of Justice"

6) "According to these critics, `Abdu’l-Bahā said: "Although women and men share the same capacities and abilities, there is definitely no doubt that men are superior and stronger. Even in animals like pigeons, sparrows, peacocks, and other [birds] this advantage is visible,"[19][20] `Abdu’l-Bahā made the comments in light of being questioned as to why God didn't send any female prophets." (I'm not privy to Wikipedia but I found this part interesting)....

Too many questions.

I have spoken to Bahai'i on this forum so I can confirm that they believe that they believe that the Bab was foretold in previous scriptures, but when doing textual criticism one can identify what is wrong with the interpretation (at least for the scriptures they have given to me).

Your 1st point would also go against their viewpoint, but somehow they ignore that or explain it away somehow.

Points 3-5 makes sense from an Abrahamic viewpoint.

Point 6 would be proven wrong when compared with the bible, as Deborah was a prophetess who was leading Israel during the time of the judges. God placed her in charge over all the men of the nation.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Cool. So then one can leave the bahai'i but not try to usurp control of the group?

Correct as it is a free will choice to accept Baha'u'llah and the given laws. One can change that choice.

What can not be done is accept and learn of the covernant and then think one knows a better way to guide the faith forward and rebel against the given covernant. This is the first time the Covernant has been recorded by the pen of the Messenger.

In the Bible, this Covernant is described as the Day that will not be followed by night.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So all you can do is read everything you can from all sides and decide which makes more sense to you. It's a polarized topic with lots of mud-slinging all around. "you're the deceptive one" is tossed about as much as "I'm right and you're wrong.'

You will come to a conclusion, it will be neither right nor wrong, but it will be yours, not someone else's.

The key there is one should read both sides and make the choice. If @Epic Beard Man has no agenda but to seek that truth, then an answer to his question is applicable and would have been researched.

I await his response as to why he posted such a link. Has the other side yet been considered? Or is there an agenda to post only the side of a distractor?

Hope you are well and happy, regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Anyone of any faith can say the same again, how can you dispute these claims? Apparently this so-called blogger proclaims to have studied religion and in looking at some of his writings he has the same criticisms of Islam and other religions.

How? They are false, or have a solid foundation in justice and reason, that is how.

What one needs to consider is that a lot of the comments made by Baha'u'llah of condemnation, are directed at the leaders of religion. Christ in the age of Jesus called them wolves in sheeps clothing.

It is those leaders in each age that then persecute God's Messengers, all the while saying they are following God. Those that blindly follow those leaders, without using their own free choice, are likewise accused.

If one is fair and just, the accusations are not applicable.

Regards Tony