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Something interesting I found on the Baha'i Faith

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So, to be a Bahai, women must give up equality because that is the will of Jesus? Jesus had many women he treated equally. I guess I would never be a Bahai believer.

I see to be a Baha'i is to embrace a lasting equality of men and women.

I do not know why one would attempt to see it in any other light. Any any other light would be a distraction from the true purpose of a workable and lasting equality between men and women.

Regards Tony
 

Sen McGlinn

Member
The OP has a list of things that Baha'u'llah or Abdu'l-Baha are supposed to have said or written, without any sources. Because they have no sources, no-one can say "he didn't say that" - all we can say is we've not seen it. There's no answer to an unspecified allegation, it's just a slur.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Please quote sources, Tony.
I think if there was any text saying this, the House of Justice would probably have cited it by now, since they've written a series of messages on same-sex marriage.

Baha'u'llah has written

"God hath prescribed matrimony unto you...Enter into wedlock, O people, that ye may bring forth one who will make mention of Me amid My servants. This is My bidding unto you; hold fast to it as an assistance to yourselves."

Abdu’l-Bahá has also stated the following on marriage:

Bahá’í marriage is the commitment of the two parties one to the other, and their mutual attachment of mind and heart. Each must, however, exercise the utmost care to become thoroughly acquainted with the character of the other, that the binding covenant between them may be a tie that will endure forever. Their purpose must be this: to become loving companions and comrades and at one with each other for time and eternity…

The true marriage of Bahá’ís is this, that husband and wife should be united both physically and spiritually, that they may ever improve the spiritual life of each other, and may enjoy everlasting unity throughout all the worlds of God. This is Bahá’í marriage.

In another Tablet, He has written:

O ye two believers in God! The Lord, peerless is He, hath made woman and man to abide with each other in the closest companionship, and to be even as a single soul. They are two helpmates, two intimate friends, who should be concerned about the welfare of each other.

If they live thus, they will pass through this world with perfect contentment, bliss, and peace of heart, and become the object of divine grace and favor in the Kingdom of heaven. But if they do other than this, they will live out their lives in great bitterness, longing at every moment for death, and will be shamefaced in the heavenly realm.

Strive, then, to abide, heart and soul, with each other as two doves in the nest, for this is to be blessed in both worlds.

Regards Tony
 
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Sen McGlinn

Member
In the U.S. women are making a huge impact in Congress, in the Senate, in the courts and someday soon as the President. If they can serve on local and national spiritual assemblies and other top positions, why not the UHofJ?

It's not certain whether the exclusion of women is a "wisdom" (a hikmat), adopted as a pragmatic solution for a time, or is a permanent exclusion. There are texts about this, and a range of views in the Bahai community about how to read them. Next step is -- given that there are a range of views -- would it be wise to include women when many Bahais think that this is illegitimate. A cunning solution is that the all-male UHJ should appoint only women to all the senior appointed roles, notably the counsellors. This would solve another problem: that the men appointed to these positions are de facto designated as electable to the UHJ, a small pool of papabile. As a result, for the last couple of decades, every new UHJ member has come from the male Counsellors at the world centre, appointed by the UHJ, and the present UHJ has no member with a long experience in a National Spiritual Assembly. If all the senior appointed positions were held by women, then the delegates at the international convention -- who are national assembly members -- would be likely to elect the new UHJ members from their own ranks, from the men who have served as chairs or secretaries or treasurers of a national assembly for several years. The officers of national assemblies are elected by their fellow-members, so anyone re-elected as an officer must have done a competent job in the previous year.

More on this on my blog at :
“Without reference to particular individuals”

and on the different sources and readings regarding women on the UHJ, there this (somewhat outdated) study :

The Service of Women on the Institutions of the Baha'i Faith
 

Sen McGlinn

Member
In other words, if you want to be a Bahai woman, do what you're told or go away from Bahai.
Many Bahai women don't take it: they tend to be educated and able to speak for themselves, and when Bahai men try tell them that they are "exempt" not excluded, they say just what they think, proving in doing so that they are perfectly capable.
I don't think I've ever heard a Bahai woman buy into the patronising-patriarchal line of women being too special to be on the UHJ. It's strictly a Bahai-man thing.
 

Sen McGlinn

Member
he commitment of the two parties one to the other

This is the only text I know of that does not assume that the couple are man and woman, just "two parties."

Enter into wedlock, O people, that ye may bring forth one who will make mention of Me amid My servants.

There's two ways of reading this: that only people who can procreate may marry (which is why old people and infertile people cannot marry - right?) or that having children is desirable, and having them within a marriage is especially desirable. Naturally same-sex couples can raise children, and now -- but not in Baha'u'llah's time -- they can also enter into wedlock. As I read the text, they should do so, if they are Bahais.

The true marriage of Bahá’ís is this, that husband and wife should be united both physically and spiritually,

There are many quotes that assume a couple will be a man and a woman, but none I think that say that it can only be a man and a woman. The Aqdas inheritance rule assumes that the deceased is a Bahai man who is a property owner, but we do not deduce that Bahai women cannot die, or cannot own property. Rather we understand that Baha'u'llah is using a simplifying assumption to avoid specifying every case, leaving it to the reader to apply the same principles in other cases. For example, that when a woman dies her clothes and other personal effects go (unless otherwise specified in a Will) to the daughters and not the sons, which is the inverse of what Baha'u'llah says for the case when a man dies. The simplifying assumption does not exclude every other possibility, but it does specify what happens in the specific case used as an example.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
I'm curious after doing some research, but also found and interesting opinion (perhaps made by some blogger) which detailed some criticism regarding the Baha'i faith (See Below)

That’s quite a list!

The Baha’i Faith emerged out of Persia, now Iran. The Baha’i community remains harassed and persecuted in Iran.

https://news.bahai.org/story/1300/

ODS HOME PAGE

The Iranian Government have put a great deal of resources into attacking the Baha’i Faith and have likely supported the publication of a 600+ page book with a clear agenda to discredit the Baha’is.

Twelve Principles: A Comprehensive Investigation On The Baha'i Teachings First Edition : Masoud Basiti, Zahra Moradi, Hossein Akhoondali, Ali Mansouri : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Most of the material from the blog is derived from this book.

It’s important to know the context.

The Independent Investigation of Truth, Unfettered by Superstition or Tradition(yet somehow, most Baha’i scripture is locked up in Israel and no one can investigate Baha’ism in a correct manner)

Many of the original documents or writings of the Baha’i Faith are based in Haifa, Israel.

A great deal of the writings are available in Arabic, Persian and English.

Bahá’í Reference Library | The Bahá’í Faith

Permission to access the original documents would need to be arranged through the appropriate channels as would be expected with any precious or historical archives.

The Oneness of Humanity(But the founder would insult his deniers and refer to them as donkeys pigs and ********: Baha’i Belief and Courtesy: Baha’u’llah Refers to Those that Deny Him as Animals, Pigs, Donkeys, Dogs, and ********)

There’s no authentic English translation to support this statement.

Religion Must be the Source of Unity and Fellowship(Baha’u’llah’s family were in constant conflict and shunned each other)

Bahá’u’lláh’s half brother Mirza Yahya claimed leadership of the Baha’i Faith.

Subh-i-Azal - Wikipedia

Abdu’l-Baha’s half brother Mírzá Muhammad-Ali opposed his leadership.

Mírzá Muhammad `Alí - Wikipedia

Religion Must be in Conformity with Science and Reason(Ironically, the founders made numerous errors when speaking about scientific matters: See a list of blunders here)

The ‘errors’ are generally created by taking writings out of context.

If you have any specific examples I’m happy to discuss.

The Removal of All Prejudice(yet non-Baha’i are considered as worthless pebbles: “My friends are the pearls of [this] order and all others are earthly pebbles . . . a single one of these (Baha’is) is more precious than a million others (non-Baha’is),” (Baha’u’llah))

I’ve never come across such a statement from Bahá’u’lláh in the nearly 30 years I’ve been a Baha’i and can find no authentic reference for it.

The Baha’i Writings are strong on love for all:

They that are endued with sincerity and faithfulness should associate with all the peoples and kindreds of the earth with joy and radiance, inasmuch as consorting with people hath promoted and will continue to promote unity and concord, which in turn are conducive to the maintenance of order in the world and to the regeneration of nations. Blessed are such as hold fast to the cord of kindliness and tender mercy and are free from animosity and hatred.
Tablets of Baha’u’llah, p. 35.

Baha'u'llah

The Equalization of the Means of Livelihood for All Humanity (except for thieves and those that are labelled as covenant breakers for disagreeing with Baha’i doctrines and are kicked out of the community)

That’s not from the Baha’i writings but the opinion of the blogger.

Establishment of a Universal House of Justice and Supreme Tribunal (unfortunately, the house of justice turned out to be a dictatorship who handles all disagreement with an ironfist)

Subjective opinion based on what? It’s certainly not my experience of the International governing body of my faith.

Universal Compulsory Education (the blunders of the leaders in simple scientific matters show that this is mere slogan)

The Baha’i writings place great emphasis on universal education.

Universal Education

What are these blunders on scientific matters?

A Universal Auxiliary Language (but they failed to introduce such a language)

It is for humanity to establish such a universal language and script in the future.

The day is approaching when all the peoples of the world will have adopted one universal language and one common script. When this is achieved, to whatsoever city a man may journey, it shall be as if he were entering his own home. These things are obligatory and absolutely essential. It is incumbent upon every man of insight and understanding to strive to translate that which hath been written into reality and action.

Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh | Bahá’í Reference Library

That time has yet to come.


For example?

11- Establishment of Universal Peace (this one is probably the biggest failure)

The world has become more peaceful and prosperous over the last 100 or so years. There is less conflict, more international cooperation and standards of living have generally progressed dramatically in most parts of the world. Clearly there is still much work to be done but the trend is undeniable. I recommend you read a book titled ‘Factfulness’ by Hans Rosling.

https://www.amazon.com/Factfulness-Reasons-World-Things-Better/dp/1250107814

12- The World of Humanity is in the Need of the Breath of the Holy Spirit.

I agree.

13-Baha'i claim on gender equality with a huge BUT:

The Universal House of Justice wrote on 8 January 1981:

Abdu'l-Bahá asserts: 'In this divine age the bounties of God have encompassed the world of women. Equality of men and women, except in some negligible instances, has been fully and categorically announced. Distinctions have bee utterly removed.' That men and women differ from one another in certain characteristics and functions is an inescapable fact of nature; the important thing is that He regards such inequalities as remain between the sexes as being 'negligible'.

One of these negligible instances is the exclusion of women from the Universal House of Justice—the infallible top-governing body of the Baha'i Faith.

It is true that only men are eligible to serve on the Universal House of Justice.

14- The allowance of Bigamy:

"You asked about polygamy. According to the text (nass) of the Divine Book the right of having two wives is lawful and legal (ja'iz). This was never (abadan) prohibited, but it is legitimate and allowed (halal wa mubah). You should therefore not be unhappy, but take justice into your consideration so that you may be as just as possible. What has been said was that since justice is very difficult [to achieve], therefore tranquillity [calls for] one wife. But in your case, you should not be unhappy".

The Baha’i Writings clearly establishes monogamy. This is a major change from Islam.

15- Baha'i allowing the desecration of "covenant breakers" grave

"ANNOUNCE BAHA'I WORLD REMOVAL FROM IMMEDIATE PRECINCTS HOLY SHRINE BAHA'U'LLAH REMAINS MIRZA DIYA'U'LLAH YOUNGER BROTHER MIRZA MUHAMMAD ALI HIS ACCOMPLICE IN EFFORTS SUBVERT FOUNDATIONS COVENANT GOD SOON AFTER ASCENSION BAHA'U'LLAH. THIS FINAL STEP IN PROCESS PURIFICATION SACRED INTERNATIONAL ENDOWMENTS FAITH IN BAHJI FROM PAST CONTAMINATION WAS PROVIDENTIALLY UNDERTAKEN"

The relatives of Mírzá Diya’u’llah requested the relocation of his body. The Baha’i leadership agreed to the request. As Mírzá Diya’u’llah had acted to subvert the leadership of Abdu’l-Baha, this was seen as a positive development.

Anyone Baha'i care to debate the opposite of this?

I’m happy to discuss any criticism of the Baha’i Faith you wish.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
I’m happy to discuss any criticism of the Baha’i Faith you wish.
Few days back I was thinking "where is Adrian?". Nice to see you again.

Thanks for your informative reply

I am not so much into criticism of religions as a whole. I rather see the good in the religions, and Bahai has plenty of good things. Sometimes when certain verses feel bad at first, I try if I can find a different interpretation of such verse. Because I believe the Prophets were inspired by the Divine, so verses should make sense.

It is for humanity to establish such a universal language and script in the future.
The day is approaching when all the peoples of the world will have adopted one universal language and one common script. When this is achieved, to whatsoever city a man may journey, it shall be as if he were entering his own home. These things are obligatory and absolutely essential. It is incumbent upon every man of insight and understanding to strive to translate that which hath been written into reality and action.
Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh | Bahá’í Reference Library
That time has yet to come.

About above verse. Once I asked Sai Baba "should I learn Sanskrit", and He answered "No, there is only 1 language ... the language of the Heart".
His answer was very nice, and makes sense to me. Maybe Bahá’u’lláh was referring to this. At least my interpretation doesn't seem wrong to me. Might take many more years though. And it feels correct to me "it's incumbent upon every man of insight and understanding to strive to translate that which hath been written into reality and action". That is what Sai Baba always said "Thoughts, words and deeds should be one", and that means "following the Heart".

At least as long as Bahais do not give me a better explanation about "the Universal Language" mentioned by Bahá’u’lláh, I stick to mine. Feels good, and no need to debate Bahá’u’lláh on this:)
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
3) The law of Baha'u'llah states that legal marriage is between a man and women. It is only in that bond that the sex impulse can be used. If you are not a Baha'i, one does not have to consider it applicable to them. If one is a Baha'i, then it has to be considered.
Thank you, that is very clear. And I guess Bahai followers don't look down on non-Baha'i who use the sex impulse differently (or see themselves as "better" or further on the spiritual path)
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Do you get that God is not a man? God doesn't have a penis.
I never thought of God in terms of "Penis"
But now you got me thinking along these lines, I better capitalize it:)
God being omnipresent ... imagine that ... His Penis would be everywhere, would it not?
God being omnipotent ... imagine that ... well you get the picture why I capitalized IT;)
God being omnibenevolent ... imagine that ...
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
I do not know why you ask such a question? Man used in my posts is not meaning male of the species. It is used to talk about all of mankind which includes male and female.

Man (word) - Wikipedia

The use of the word man, has become distorted by new age political correctness, based in a sexist agenda.

Regards Tony
Hi Tony, Maybe consider that a small shift in your wording would better reflect your intentions?

If there is no gender intended in your comments, using the word "humanity" would better represent your message?

It seems though that you are opposed to this because it reflects a "new age", "political correctness", and a "sexist agenda"? Respectfully, I think you should leap-frog over all of that. Just replace the word "man-kind" with "humanity" if that's what you mean. It's a simple small change that would prevent misunderstandings and hurt feelings?
 

Neutral Name

Active Member
I never thought of God in terms of "Penis"
But now you got me thinking along these lines, I better capitalize it:)
God being omnipresent ... imagine that ... His Penis would be everywhere, would it not?
God being omnipotent ... imagine that ... well you get the picture why I capitalized IT;)
God being omnibenevolent ... imagine that ...

The point is that God DOES NOT have a penis. God is a spirit being, not a human. There is a great difference. She (GOD) loves women equally.
 

Neutral Name

Active Member
Many Bahai women don't take it: they tend to be educated and able to speak for themselves, and when Bahai men try tell them that they are "exempt" not excluded, they say just what they think, proving in doing so that they are perfectly capable.
I don't think I've ever heard a Bahai woman buy into the patronising-patriarchal line of women being too special to be on the UHJ. It's strictly a Bahai-man thing.

Thank you, my friend.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
I never thought of God in terms of "Penis"
But now you got me thinking along these lines, I better capitalize it:)
God being omnipresent ... imagine that ... His Penis would be everywhere, would it not?
God being omnipotent ... imagine that ... well you get the picture why I capitalized IT;)
God being omnibenevolent ... imagine that ...

The point is that God DOES NOT have a penis. God is a spirit being, not a human. There is a great difference. She (GOD) loves women equally.
You missed my point. I proved with my example that God is not a human (with all these omnis), otherwise we would have His HUGE Penis all over the place.
 
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