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Featured Solomon's big question

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Redemptionsong, Jul 3, 2020.

  1. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Much of the debate that takes place between Unitarians and Trinitarians is an attempt to answer the big question posed by King Solomon.

    1 Kings 8:27. 'But will God indeed dwell on earth?'
    2 Chronicles 6:18. 'But will God in very deed dwell with men on the earth?'

    The constructing of the tabernacle, or sanctuary, was Israel's obedient response to God's command in the wilderness. As it says in Exodus 25:8, 'And let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them.'

    The specifications for the sanctuary were precise and detailed, and according to God's pattern. This was true for the tabernacle, and for the later Temple in Jerusalem.

    The innermost and most holy place in the Temple, the Holy of Holies, was occupied by the Ark of the Covenant. God's presence was said to be between the cherubim on the mercy seat. Only the High Priest was allowed access, once in the year.

    Psalm 99:1. 'The LORD reigneth; let the people tremble: he sitteth between the cherubims; let the earth be moved.'

    God's decision to have a Temple made for his dwelling place on earth was bound closely to His covenant with Israel.

    Does anyone who believes the scriptures doubt that God (the LORD) dwelt on earth in the Temple? Did God remain constantly amongst his people until the Ark was hidden? Did God take leave of earth after the Ark's disappearance?

    And a further question; does Malachi 3:1 refer to the physical temple, or to the Messiah, Jesus?
    'Behold, I will send my messenger [John the Baptist, I believe], and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.'
     
  2. 101G

    101G Active Member

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    Adressing the OP,
    did not God build for himself a temple and adding to it every day? Matthew 16:18. and on the day of pentecost came a dwelt in it?

    PICJAG.
     
  3. exchemist

    exchemist Veteran Member

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    Interesting. I think I'd value a commentary from some of our Jewish members on how they see this. I thought the Mercy Seat was a place where God was said to appear, rather than reside, but I know next to nothing about it.

    From the Christian viewpoint, surely St John's Gospel is fairly unambiguous that God "dwelt among us" after the Incarnation, rather than before, isn't it? But then St. John seems to be rather Trinitarian - or proto-Trinitarian.
     
  4. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    This business of 'dwelling' is quite hard to establish with certainty.

    In Leviticus 26:11,12 it says, 'And I will set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you.
    And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people.'

    In 1 Corinthians 10:4 it says that Christ was present in the wilderness as the 'spiritual Rock' that followed the Israelites.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  5. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    I believe that God did build Himself a temple, and I believe Jesus was the chief corner stone of the temple - Ephesians 2:20. But the whole truth must be that a temple is made of both a corner stone and many other living stones (as you say). Or, using another analogy, a living being must have a head and a body.

    We sometimes hear a difference of opinion concerning Israel as a 'son of God'. Some say it is Christ, others that it is Israel, the people. The truth is, both are encompassed by the whole body; one the head, the other being members of the body.
     
    #5 Redemptionsong, Jul 3, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2020
  6. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    The Hebrew scriptures seem to indicate that God came to earth on a number of occasions before the birth of Jesus. God also seems to have been present in Solomon's Temple. But the presence of God amongst his people was not enough to bring about the obedience of heart that God required.

    Nor was the life of Jesus on earth enough to bring about the holiness required, IMO. Had Jesus not been resurrected, and had He not sent forth the Holy Spirit, the presence of God on earth would not have brought about obedience in Israel. In other words, what Jesus accomplished during his life on earth, in paying the price for sin, did not bring immediate benefits for mankind. The benefits began at Pentecost, when Christ was no longer on earth. So having God 'amongst' us is not enough. We must have God 'within' our hearts if we are to meet the requirement of holiness.
     
  7. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    God and Lord are not necessary always the same. And it is said in the Bible:

    The God who made the world and all things in it, he, being Lord of heaven and earth, doesn't dwell in temples made with hands, neither is he served by men's hands, as though he needed anything, seeing he himself gives to all life and breath, and all things.
    Acts 17:24-25

    But there is a temple, that is not made by human hands:

    Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I tell you, I speak not from myself; but the Father who lives in me does his works.
    John 14:10

    Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." The Jews therefore said, "Forty-six years was this temple in building, and will you raise it up in three days?" But he spoke of the temple of his body.
    John 2:19-21

    But if the Spirit of him who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised up Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
    Romans 8:11

    Don't you know that you are a temple of God, and that God's Spirit lives in you?
    1 Corinthians 3:16

    Jesus and his disciples are God’s temple. And Jesus is the corner stone of that temple.

    Haven't you even read this Scripture: 'The stone which the builders rejected, The same was made the head of the corner. This was from the Lord, It is marvelous in our eyes'?"
    Mark 12:10-11
     
  8. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    I agree with what you have written, but at the time of the consecration of Solomon's temple, in 2 Chronicles 7:2, it says, 'And the priests could not enter into the house of the LORD, because the glory of the LORD had filled the LORD'S house.'

    From Chronicles, it seems as if the glory of the LORD was present in the temple, but did God's glory 'dwell' there?
     
  9. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Has God dwelt on the earth in the past and will he dwell with mankind in the future? The answer to those questions I believe is, yes.....but HOW? That is the more important question I think.

    For Israel, God “dwelt” among his people.....but always in the presence of his “house” of worship. Simply stated, the condition of the temple and Israel’s respect for it and the quality of the worship carried on there, seems to indicate their spiritual health, which the Bible reveals was very unstable.

    How did God manifest his presence among his people? He gave them physical evidence whilst they wandered in the wilderness, in the form of a pillar of fire by night and a pillar of cloud by day, guiding them and miraculously providing food and water for them for 40 years. He had given then physical evidence even prior to that in the 10 plagues on Egypt. But he never came to any human in person.

    He gave Moses physical evidence of his presence in the burning bush.....but again it was not in person. Moses once asked God to reveal himself, but was told that ”no man may seem and yet live”.....so God’s physical presence is not something a mere human could survive, nor is a physical structure like a Temple, something that could contain him.

    So what did the temple represent? How did God use the physical temple to illustrate something much grander?

    Hebrews 8:1-3 speaks of Jesus as being a High Priest in another Temple which was constructed by God, not men.

    In Hebrews 9:24 Paul speaks of the earthly Temple arrangement as “a copy of the reality”, which is in heaven. So the real Temple is spiritual, and it is reflected in its structure and operation in the earthly arrangement. It has a High Priest (Jesus Christ) and a priesthood, specially chosen by God to assist him in the administration of his kingdom, (being a King/Priest like Melchizedek) so he has authority to perform both duties.

    According to my beliefs, God was always present with his people as long as they were obedient to him, though it was never in person....always by means of his representatives, both angelic and human.

    The condition of the earthly Temple was a a fair indication of whether God had removed himself from among his people. If he allowed his temple to be plundered and destroyed, that meant that he had left them to their own disobedient devices. If they were defeated by their enemies, he was not with them. If he punished them in some way, he left them in no doubt that he was displeased with them. But he kept those “stiff necked” people as his own until he had produced their Messiah......but their rejection of him, saw Jesus pronounce sentence...(Matthew 23:37-39)

    God has never ordered that another earthly Temple be built since the last Temple’s destruction in 70CE. Since it represented the very centre of God’s worship for his people, its is clear to me that Christ, in offering his life for mankind, meant that the physical Temple was no longer necessary, because God, through the grand spiritual Temple arrangement in heaven, had received his sacrifice on behalf of mankind.

    Revelation 21:2-4 indicates that God will again “dwell” with mankind....but Christ and his priests will rule them from heaven. (Revelation 20:6)

    God’s presence among his worshippers was always through his representatives. The ancient Patriarchs did not have a physical Temple but rendered acceptable worship to God.
     
  10. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    Jesus, the descendant of King Solomon, is the temple that is being referred to. It was the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, who said to Moses in Deuteronomy 18: 18-19; ----“I will send them a prophet just like you from among their own people; I will put MY WORDS in his mouth, and he will tell the people everything that I command him to say. And whoever will not give heed to MY WORDS which he will speak in MY NAME, I will surely punish.”

    Peter reveals who that prophet was, when in Acts 3: 12; in reference to the man Jesus, Peter says; “For Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will send you a prophet just as he sent me, and he will be one of your own people, etc.”

    Did the people of his day believe that the man Jesus was some God, who had been born of a virgin? Of course not, the Jews who lived in the day of Jesus, knew that God had said to Moses that he would choose a man from among the Israelites and send him to speak in his name, and Peter in Acts 3: 22; verified that man to be Jesus the son of Mary, Plus the people of his day knew that he was the man that God had chosen from among the Israelites and sent to speak in his name, when on his triumphant entry into Jerusalem, they cried out: “BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD.”

    Isaiah 42: 1; “Here is my servant, whom I strengthen —the one I have chosen, with whom I am pleased. I have filled him with my Spirit, and he will bring justice to every nation.

    This happened on the day that the man Jesus was baptised, and the spirit of our Lord God and savior descended upon him in the form of a dove, as the heavenly voice was heard to say; “You are my son, (MY CHOSEN HEIR AND SUCCESSOR) This DAY I have begotten thee, or this day I have become your Father.

    And God dwelled among man in his temple Jesus, who spoke not one word other than that which he was commanded to say, and it was the Lord, speaking through his obedient servant Jesus, who said; (Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up.)

    They were the words that Jesus was commanded to say by the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, who raised the body of Jesus, the earthly temple, which had been filled with his spirit.

    Acts 5: 30; The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you slew and hanged on a tree.

    Acts 13: 30; But God raised him from the dead: and he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee, etc.

    1st Corinthians 6: 14; And God has both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

    2nd Corinthians 1: 9; But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead.

    2nd Corinthians 4: 14; knowing that he who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and bring us with you into his presence.

    Acts 17: 31; For He (The Lord God our saviour) has fixed a day in which he shall judge the whole world with justice by means of a MAN he has CHOSEN. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising that MAN from death.

    It was the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who said through his obedient servant Jesus; “Destroy this Temple and in three days I will raise it up.”

    Acts 3: 13; The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our ancestors has given divine glory to his servant 'Jesus.'

    And Jesus our brother, was given divine glory and now sits in the throne of our Father, and all the chosen ones who have born the image of the first Adam, shall also bear the IMAGE of the glorified Jesus, "The Second Adam," (in the eternal process of change/evolution, for mankind does not close the chapter in the book of evolution) a new creation of bodies of Glorious and blinding Light which is the new Temple of our Lord that is to replace God’s old tabernacle =temporary tent (Mankind) as the ruler on this earth of all creation.

    First, "MAN" (man (אנושׁ : 'enosh') in English, mortal human beings) was created a little lower than the angels, then he is crowned with glory and all creation is placed beneath his feet. All creation is placed beneath the feet of MAN (man (אנושׁ : 'enosh) in English, mortal human beings) WHO IS CROWNED WITH GLORY, we have not yet seen this happen. But we have seen Jesus, the first born from the dead, who has won the victory and was given divine glory by our heavenly Father and saviour, and is now incontestably divine and sits in the heavenly throne of Godhead: and who, in Revelation 3: 21; invites those, who win the victory also, to sit with him in our Father’s throne of Godhead within the creation. And all creation Visible and invisible, which, according to Paul, includes even the angels, will bow at their feet.
     
    #10 The Anointed, Jul 3, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2020
  11. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Interesting points.

    It strikes me that God's presence was in the tabernacle and temple as the 'glory of the LORD'. Surely this is God Himself (Christ), and not a representative?

    Exodus 40:34. 'Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.
    And Moses was not able to enter into the tent of the congregation, because the cloud abode thereon, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.'

    2 Chronicles 7:1,2. 'Now when Solomon had made an end of praying, the fire came down from heaven, and consumed the burnt offering and the sacrifices; and the glory of the LORD filled the house [the temple].
    And the priests could not enter into the house of the LORD, because the glory of the LORD had filled the LORD'S house.'

    On both occasions, the glory of the LORD makes it impossible for the 'unholy' to enter into the holiness of the LORD'S presence.

    If the temple, in its entirety, is a spiritual foreshadowing of the whole BODY of Christ, then the Holy of Holies must be the only place where SINLESSNESS exists. The outer courts are occupied by those who have sinned, but who approach God with repentant hearts and suitable sacrifices.

    When Jesus was crucified, the temple's curtain of separation, the parochet, was torn from top to bottom. Was access to the place of sinlessness not made available through the blood of Jesus Christ? Isn't this something that only God can do for man?
     
    #11 Redemptionsong, Jul 4, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2020
  12. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Is Jesus Christ not BOTH fully God and fully man? The scriptures describe him as a mediator, and not a mediator of one (not God alone, and not man alone) [Galatians 3:20]. As I understand scripture, all the prophets sinned, with the exception of Jesus Christ.

    What is the 'glory of the LORD' that appeared in the tabernacle and temple?
     
  13. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    What is the 'glory of the LORD' that appeared in the tabernacle and temple? It was the glory of the Lord God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob who said to Moses in Deuteronomy 18: 18-19; "; "I will send them a prophet like you from among their own people; I will put MY WORDS in his mouth, and he and he shall speak to them all that I command, and whosoever will not heed MY WORDS, which he shall speak in MY NAME, I will punish, etc.

    Peter confirms that Jesus was that man, when, concerning the man Jesus, he says in. Acts 3: 22; For Moses said; "The Lord your God will send you a prophet, just as he sent me, and he will be one of your own people, etc."

    Did the people of his day believe that he was the Lord, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The God of our ancestors? No, they did not, for on the day of his triumphant entry into Jerusalem, the people escorting him cried out, "BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD" Verifying that they believed Jesus to be the one that God had promised that he would choose from among the Israelites, and send to the people to speak in his name.

    John 5: 24; "Whoever hears my words, (Which were the Words of YHVH/Who I Am, that he commanded the man that he had chosen from among the people, to speak in his name) and believes in “HIM” who sent me, has eternal life.
     
  14. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    I'm not clear as to your meaning here, TA. Are you saying that 'the glory of the LORD' is the voice of the LORD God? What do you understand by the word 'glory'?

    The Hebrew scriptures state that the 'glory of the LORD' was present within the tabernacle, and within the temple. Both the tabernacle and Solomon's temple were temporarily filled with God's presence.

    The body of Jesus was also a corruptible temple, until it was changed in resurrection. If we compare the coming of the 'glory of the LORD' to the coming of God's Spirit, then we can say, with scripture, that the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. This suggests that the 'glory of the LORD' is the Spirit of Christ, sent by the Father. The Spirit of Christ, like the 'glory of the LORD', dwells within a temple of God's making.
     
  15. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    The Lord God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, said to Moses in Deuteronomy 18: 18-19; "I will send them a prophet like you from among their own people; I will put MY WORDS in his mouth, and he and he shall speak to them all that I command, and whosoever will not heed MY WORDS, which he shall speak in MY NAME, I will punish, etc.

    Jesus was filled with the spirit=the words of the Lord God our savior, on the day that he was baptised, and Jesus spoke only that which he was commanded to say by the Lord.

    Whose words were these? John 6: 63; "It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words I have spoken to you are spirit and life."

    Jesus, the obedient servant of the Lord, even unto his cruel death upon the stake, was filled with the spirit=the words of the Lord, and was given divine glory by the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and is now incontestably divine, and sits in the heavenly throne of the Most High in the creation.

    And Jesus our brother, was given divine glory and now sits in the throne of our Father, and all the chosen ones who have born the image of the first Adam, shall also bear the IMAGE of the glorified Jesus, "The Second Adam," (in the eternal process of change/evolution, for mankind does not close the chapter in the book of evolution) a new creation of bodies of Glorious and blinding Light, which is the new Temple of our Lord that is to replace God’s old tabernacle =temporary tent (Mankind) as the ruler on this earth of all creation.

    First, "MAN" (man (אנושׁ : 'enosh') in English, mortal human beings) was created a little lower than the angels, then he is crowned with glory and all creation is placed beneath his feet. All creation is placed beneath the feet of MAN (man (אנושׁ : 'enosh) in English, mortal human beings) WHO IS CROWNED WITH GLORY, we have not yet seen this happen. But we have seen Jesus, the first born from the dead, who has won the victory and was given divine glory by our heavenly Father and saviour, and is now incontestably divine and sits in the heavenly throne of Godhead: and who, in Revelation 3: 21; invites those, who win the victory also, to sit with him in our Father’s throne of Godhead within the creation. And all creation Visible and invisible, which, according to Paul, includes even the angels, will bow at their feet.
     
  16. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    As I see it, the future glory of men can only occur if we do as Jesus teaches, and become filled with His Holy Spirit now. The filling of the temple with the 'glory of the LORD' was a foreshadowing of Christ's body, individual and corporate.

    It says in 1 Corinthians 4:20, 'For the kingdom of God is not in word [only], but in power.'

    1 Thessalonians 1:5. 'For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance;'
     
  17. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    Is glory of the Lord same as God? Why?
     
  18. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    Jesus was a human being, born of Mary and her half brother Joseph, who were both sired by Alexander Helios=Heli, by two different mothers.

    The word for Tabernacle, mishkan, is a derivative of the same root and is used in the sense of dwelling-place in the Bible, e.g. Psalm 132:5 ("Before I find a place for God, mishkanot (dwelling-places) for the Strong One of Israel.") Accordingly, in classic Jewish thought, the Shekhinah refers to a dwelling or settling in a special sense, a dwelling or settling of divine presence, to the effect that, while in proximity to the Shekhinah, the connection to God is more readily perceivable. Some Christian theologians have connected the concept of Shekhinah to the Greek term "Parousia", "presence" "arrival," which is used in the New Testament in a similar way for "Divine Presence".

    The Light of man came In the body of a human being, which he had filled with his spirit and lived with us, and we saw his Sh'khinah, (Dwelling place) the Sh'khinah, or Dwelling place, which was the body of the man Jesus that the Father had prepared for his Son, who was to come down mentally and fill with his spirit, that body that his Father had prepared for him, the earthly dwelling of the Father's only Son, full of grace and truth.

    GNB Hebrew 10: 5; For when the anointed one was about to come into the world, he said, “Sacrifices and burnt offerings you did not want, but a body you have prepared for me, etc.”

    That body was the man Jesus, of who we read, before he was given divine glory by the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, See Acts 3: 13; Hebrew 5: 7-10; “In his life on earth Jesus made his prayers and requests with loud cries and tears to God who could save him from death. Because he was humble and devoted, God heard him. But even though he was 'A' son of God, (Not God’s Son, or THE son of God, but A son of God, check it out in the Appendix of Strong’s Concordance, or The King James, Amplified, or The Revised Standard translations. all Israelites are sons of God according to God’s word, see Psalms 82: 6; ‘You are gods,’ I said; ‘all of you are sons of the Most High.’) HE learned through suffering to be obedient, when he was made perfect (through his obedience, and could then be used as the host body through which our God, ‘The Son of Man’ could then revealed himself, through the life, the miracles and the words that would be seen and heard through his obedient servant and earthy image, who did, nor spoke one word on his own authority other than that which he was commanded by the Lord our saviour.)

    The one who God had prepared for his heavenly anointed one, then became the source through whom salvation could be gained from our Lord God and saviour, who, on the day Jesus was baptised, descended upon him in the form of a dove, as the heavenly voice was heard to say; "You are my Son, (My chosen heir and successor) this day I have begotten thee, or this day I have become your Father as seen in Hebrews 5: 5; "In the same way, Christ did not take upon himself the honour of being a high priest. Instead, God said to him: “You are my Son; today I have become your Father.”

    Jesus was born Son of God, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of the.spirit of our Lord God.and savior with which he was filled on the day of his baptism..
     
  19. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    The temple with the ark was called the place of God's footstool and "a house of prayer for all nations". It was not ever considered God's actual dwelling place by those who were knowledgeable; because God said "heaven is my throne and the earth is my footstool" "where is the house you build for me and where is the place of my rest?" So whoever came to the temple it was considered that they came to the footstool of God. No small thing really; but still not His actual dwelling place.

    So neither heaven or earth could contain God as the scripture says not even the heavens of the heaven can contain Him. One was His throne and the other His footstool but neither was His house. The only thing able to contain God is what fulfills Him and gives Him rest. The scripture says that God rested on the 7th day. So we know the aim and purpose of all creation is to give God rest. And how does God rest? Everyone rests in their house. So where will God rest? The scripture says He will rest in His love and joy over His people with singing. So then God rests in love because God is love. So what is the true temple of God? It begins with Jesus the "chief cornerstone" and is of course the bride of Christ which is built on Jesus. A "Tried stone, a precious cornerstone a sure foundation". And she will give God rest. She is the new Jerusalem the house of God.
    It's about Jesus I think.
     
  20. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    In 1 Samuel 4:22 it says, 'The glory is departed from Israel: for the ark of God is taken.'

    As I understand the scriptures, the shechinah, God's presence, was in the tabernacle, and afterwards in Solomon's temple. This glory-cloud settled in the tabernacle upon the ark of the covenant in the Holy of Holies.

    Was the ark ever amongst the Israelites without God being present?

    In Exodus 33:13-15, Moses says to God, 'Now therefore, I pray thee, if I have found grace in thy sight, shew me now thy way, that I may know thee, that I may find grace in thy sight: and consider that this nation is thy people.
    And he [God] said 'My presence shall go with thee, and I will give thee rest.
    And he [Moses] said, If thy presence go not with me, carry us not up hence.'
     
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