• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Sola-Scriptura destroys itself!

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
The problems with the doctrine of Sola Scriptura are many. First off, the Bible doesn't even claim to be the sole source of information regarding God's dealings with mankind. Second, the books that are included in the canon have been changed so many times over the years that the claim is debunked with the first change. Thirdly, we're told in John that Jesus did so many things as a part of His ministry that all of the books in the world couldn't hold an accounting of them. And fourthly, but definitely not lastly, is the fact that I have never even talked to someone who truly believes the doctrine. It's Protestants who claim to, but they also accept the Nicene Creed and, in many cases, even later creeds and professions of faith. That alone proves that they can't rightly claim to believe in scripture only.
 
Last edited:

Spiderman

Veteran Member
Guided by the spirit not by any written code... Protestantism was a good thing since the Catholic church was so corrupt. They say "absolute power corrupts absolutely" So having things spread out and guided by the bible is an improvement.
I see some good things about the Protestant Reformation. It had a completely unbiblical premise however and was founded on a pitiful man-made Doctrine that destroys itself :( but it accomplished some good things and put the Catholic Church in check (which needed to be done) :)
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
There are many reasons why Sola-Scriptura (Bible alone Doctrine) doesn't work. I'm going to share one I came across today.

Today I opened my Bible to

Ephesians 5: 29 no one ever hated their own body, but they nourish and care for their bodies, just as Christ does the church

No one ever hated their own body?? WTF!?! All kinds of people hate their body! I passionately hate my flesh and think being human is gross. I hate eating, hate bowel movements, bodily functions, boogers, tooth decay, and if I could be delivered from this body and be a spirit today, I would do so, and I pray it happens, I'm just not going to kill myself because I'm waiting for God's timing (And I don't have firearms). I have also known people who starve themselves, commit suicide, induce vomiting, whip themselves, burn themselves, cut themselves, and abuse their bodies in all sorts of ways.

Yet Scripture says no one ever hated their body but they nourish and care for it as Christ does the Church. Total falsehood! Duh!

This Scripture verse bothers me because yet again I have come across a verse in Scripture that appears completely false. I would like to tell people that Scripture is reliable and doesn't contain falsehood, but I can present multiple Scripture verses that don't mean what they say.

It bothers me because people constantly use Scripture to rebuke people and assume various people are condemned to the "Lake of fire", yet how do we know when the Scripture actually means what it says? Very often Scripture doesn't mean what it says...like John 14:14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

But the main reason Solascriptura doesn't work is because it is a Doctrine that destroys itself. If the Bible is the final and only authority, then there should have to be something in Scripture that says it is. I will renounce my Catholic Faith today if you can show me where Solascriptura is found in the Bible. Solascriptura has splintered Christianity into thousands of denominations because the Bible is soooo confusing. THE BIBLE DIVIDES PEOPLE!

So, don't condemn someone for doing something that isn't found in the Bible, and how about you don't use Scripture to condemn at all, because Scripture contains clear blatant falsehood, as I have shown you and is loaded with Hyperbole, poetry, parable, and symbolic speech that isn't meant to be taken literal.

Yet people constantly use Scripture to judge and condemn other faiths or say "don't do that, it isn't in the Bible". Nothing in the Bible says something has to be in the Bible to be true!
;)
sola scriptura, sola fide is the only basis that Christianity is founded on. Your alleged untruths in the Bible are nonsense. Context of time and to whom the Scripture is directed are required for proper exegesis. Further, the actual point being made, if you can grasp it, determines the understanding of what is written. You are a Catholic and that is fine, but I must ask, if the inspired word of God fails you, do you find sinful humans are a better source to tell you what you should believe ? I am a student of the Reformation. Do you believe those sinful men ( of course the Reformers were sinful too) that were leading your church at the time were properly shepherding their flock ? Do you think by example and teaching they were portraying true Christianity ? To say the Bible contains falsehoods makes me think your group name should be dope on a rope.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
The problems with the doctrine of Sola Scriptura are many. First off, the Bible doesn't even claim to be the sole source of information regarding God's dealings with mankind. Second, the books that are included in the canon have been changed so many times over the years that the claim is debunked with the first change. Thirdly, we're told in John that Jesus did so many things as a part of His ministry that all of the books in the world couldn't hold an accounting of them. And fourthly, but definitely not lastly) is the fact that I have never even talked to someone who truly believes the doctrine. It's Protestants who claim to, but they also accept the Nicene Creed and, in many cases, even later creeds and professions of faith. That alone proves that they can't rightly claim to believe in scripture only.
Your assertion that the canon has been " changed so many times" is simply untrue. Interesting you have never met anyone who believes the doctrine, Millions and millions of Evangelicals do. I understand why you would be opposed to it if you are a Mormon, the same reason as our Catholic friend. You denomination has golden plates dug up by a "prophet" that he read with magic glasses, and the Catholics have a series of big daddies that when speaking ex cathedra speaks for and as God. Both denominations have allowed these men to create religions that share little similarity to the Apostolic Church found in the Bible. Of course you would be against sola scriptura, because the Bible because many of your doctrines aren't found there. You cannot create prophets and big daddies that warp the simple doctrines in the Bible into churches that believe in strange doctrines invented by your prophet and big daddies, and respect the Bible as the word of God at the same time. Before you think it, I am not condemning anyone's relationship with God, or your denominations relationship with God. I am simply saying that many of your doctrines are the result of sinful men, and you have purposely strayed from the church described in the Bible.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
There are many reasons why Sola-Scriptura (Bible alone Doctrine) doesn't work. I'm going to share one I came across today.

Today I opened my Bible to

Ephesians 5: 29 no one ever hated their own body, but they nourish and care for their bodies, just as Christ does the church

No one ever hated their own body?? WTF!?! All kinds of people hate their body! I passionately hate my flesh and think being human is gross. I hate eating, hate bowel movements, bodily functions, boogers, tooth decay, and if I could be delivered from this body and be a spirit today, I would do so, and I pray it happens, I'm just not going to kill myself because I'm waiting for God's timing (And I don't have firearms). I have also known people who starve themselves, commit suicide, induce vomiting, whip themselves, burn themselves, cut themselves, and abuse their bodies in all sorts of ways.

Yet Scripture says no one ever hated their body but they nourish and care for it as Christ does the Church. Total falsehood! Duh!

This Scripture verse bothers me because yet again I have come across a verse in Scripture that appears completely false. I would like to tell people that Scripture is reliable and doesn't contain falsehood, but I can present multiple Scripture verses that don't mean what they say.

It bothers me because people constantly use Scripture to rebuke people and assume various people are condemned to the "Lake of fire", yet how do we know when the Scripture actually means what it says? Very often Scripture doesn't mean what it says...like John 14:14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

But the main reason Solascriptura doesn't work is because it is a Doctrine that destroys itself. If the Bible is the final and only authority, then there should have to be something in Scripture that says it is. I will renounce my Catholic Faith today if you can show me where Solascriptura is found in the Bible. Solascriptura has splintered Christianity into thousands of denominations because the Bible is soooo confusing. THE BIBLE DIVIDES PEOPLE!

So, don't condemn someone for doing something that isn't found in the Bible, and how about you don't use Scripture to condemn at all, because Scripture contains clear blatant falsehood, as I have shown you and is loaded with Hyperbole, poetry, parable, and symbolic speech that isn't meant to be taken literal.

Yet people constantly use Scripture to judge and condemn other faiths or say "don't do that, it isn't in the Bible". Nothing in the Bible says something has to be in the Bible to be true!
;)

Sola scriptura isn't taking scripture verbatum and literally. It just means the authority of everything taught in christianity can only come from the bible.

Sola scriptura is about where the authority comes from not specifically whether someone actually turned into a pillar of salt or if jesus actually walked on water.
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
There are many reasons why Sola-Scriptura (Bible alone Doctrine) doesn't work. I'm going to share one I came across today.

Today I opened my Bible to

Ephesians 5: 29 no one ever hated their own body, but they nourish and care for their bodies, just as Christ does the church

No one ever hated their own body?? WTF!?! All kinds of people hate their body! I passionately hate my flesh and think being human is gross. I hate eating, hate bowel movements, bodily functions, boogers, tooth decay, and if I could be delivered from this body and be a spirit today, I would do so, and I pray it happens, I'm just not going to kill myself because I'm waiting for God's timing (And I don't have firearms). I have also known people who starve themselves, commit suicide, induce vomiting, whip themselves, burn themselves, cut themselves, and abuse their bodies in all sorts of ways.

Yet Scripture says no one ever hated their body but they nourish and care for it as Christ does the Church. Total falsehood! Duh!

If they really hated it, they would quit nourishing it. Those who commit suicide, burn themselves etc, have become mentally unbalanced.

This Scripture verse bothers me because yet again I have come across a verse in Scripture that appears completely false.
I would like to tell people that Scripture is reliable and doesn't contain falsehood, but I can present multiple Scripture verses that don't mean what they say.

You haven't done so yet. Want to try again?

It bothers me because people constantly use Scripture to rebuke people and assume various people are condemned to the "Lake of fire", yet how do we know when the Scripture actually means what it says?
Very often Scripture doesn't mean what it says...like John 14:14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

You need to remember Jesus statement when He was asking if His crucifixion could be avoided. He said "no My will be done, but yours. Every Christian prayer should include that statement.

But the main reason Solascriptura doesn't work is because it is a Doctrine that destroys itself. If the Bible is the final and only authority, then there should have to be something in Scripture that says it is. I will renounce my Catholic Faith today if you can show me where Solascriptura is found in the Bible. Solascriptura has splintered Christianity into thousands of denominations because the Bible is soooo confusing.

First of all we should not put our faith in any denomination. None of them have perfect theology. Put your faith in the correct object---Jesus Christ. The Bible says "ALL Scripture is inspired by God." If that is not a reason for you to accept sola scrdiptura, throw your Bible away. It is of no spiritual value.

THE BIBLE DIVIDES PEOPLE!

Yes it does, but the main division is whether it is God's word or not. We see this in the crucifixion with the 2 thieves. One believe Jesus, one did not and Jesus was in the middle dividing them. That is the main reason we are dividied aboudt the Scrdip;tures tgoday.


So, don't condemn someone for doing something that isn't found in the Bible, and how about you don't use Scripture to condemn at all, because Scripture contains clear blatant falsehood, as I have shown you and is loaded with Hyperbole, poetry, parable, and symbolic speech that isn't meant to be taken literal.

Pointing out peoples sins is not condemning them. Even God does not condemn us for our sins, but He does point them out to us. That is so we will confess them and reestablish our fellowship with God.

Yet people constantly use Scripture to judge and condemn other faiths or say "don't do that, it isn't in the Bible".


Now you are judging. Pointing to what the Bible says, is not condemning or judging.


Nothing in the Bible says something has to be in the Bible to be true!

Right , but what is says is true, including "do this," "don't do that." Christians need knowledge of right and wrong and the Bible provides that. In a way the Bible is the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Christians have eaten from the tree of life, and now we can eat it fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.----O taste and see that the Lord is good.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
No one ever hated their own body??

I feel that many of the scriptures for which there exist obvious exceptions are due to the writers of The Bible having meted out their existence from within a very pervasive naivete. The sphere of the world they had come in contact with was so very small, because travel wasn't easily accomplished, and even information share was in no way instantaneous like it is today - it was a slow and arduous process. Making a sweeping statement like "no one ever hated their body", may well have been true for everyone they had ever met, and seems an innocent enough assumption to make. But it is stated from a naive and limited view of the world.
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
Sola scriptura isn't taking scripture verbatum and literally. It just means the authority of everything taught in christianity can only come from the bible.

Sola scriptura is about where the authority comes from not specifically whether someone actually turned into a pillar of salt or if jesus actually walked on water.
My point is it destroys itself because Scripture doesn't say Scripture is the only authority
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
This has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not one DOES, and you can easily understand that. Your statement comes down to rebuff for the sake of rebuffing.
Just because you can not think beyond your own nose doesn't mean that everyone can't.
If a person would rather not hate himself, it means he has a love for himself, though less than his loathing. Nobody hates the self completely. If you would rather not hate yourself, it means love.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Demonstrably false as the church existed decades before any of the books in the N.T. were penned.
How about this to make you feel better. The verbal scriptures, that guided the Apostolic Church began being put into written form within 40 years of the Crucifixion. The foundation, rather verbal or written were exactly the same.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
My point is it destroys itself because Scripture doesn't say Scripture is the only authority

It actually, from a NT view, it says Christ is the authority and the scriptures (the hebrew ones) support christ. Sola scripturians mistake christ for the words written by his apostles as if their words are his words.

The only thing that gets me about sola scripturians is that without the bible, they feel they have no authority when I'd assume christ exists without the bible.

Shrugs
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
Just because you can not think beyond your own nose doesn't mean that everyone can't.
If a person would rather not hate himself, it means he has a love for himself, though less than his loathing. Nobody hates the self completely. If you would rather not hate yourself, it means love.
And again you misconstrue... I have to wonder if it is on-purpose. Love of "self" does not equate to love of "body." Again, this should be a concept pretty easily understood.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
It actually, from a NT view, it says Christ is the authority and the scriptures (the hebrew ones) support christ. Sola scripturians mistake christ for the words written by his apostles as if their words are his words.

The only thing that gets me about sola scripturians is that without the bible, they feel they have no authority when I'd assume christ exists without the bible.

Shrugs
The words of the scriptures are Divinely inspired by God, therefore the words are Gods words. The authority of Christ is defined and described implemented by the Scriptures., Without they, we would have no elucidation or definition of Christ and his direction for the Church
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
The words of the scriptures are Divinely inspired by God, therefore the words are Gods words. The authority of Christ is defined and described implemented by the Scriptures., Without they, we would have no elucidation or definition of Christ and his direction for the Church

It's the other way around. The scriptures are based on christ not christ based on scriptures. You should be able to experience the Word/creator's message without the need of scripture. Once you become dependant on it, it's like what christ says about people looking at hebrew scriptures as if they obtain eternal life when he is referring to himself as a medium to it instead.

Scripture is used as an idol to christ. Scripture isn't divinely inspired in and of itself. That's saying that what Moses says does not come from god but from Moses since he was inspired by god. If anything, the people were inspired by god and they wrote the bible based on their inspiration.

Whether you want to follow the law (as given to moses) or follow your inspiration as the same as with Moses and Christ that's up to the christian.

But sola scriptura is not authority. The creator is and the words (not Word) of the bible is based on Christ. So you guys are going to scripture as if it were christ all because the people who wrote it were inspired.

To me, that's idolism.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Your assertion that the canon has been " changed so many times" is simply untrue.
You're wrong about that.

In 1740, a list of the canonical books compiled in Rome just prior to 200 A.D. was discovered in the Ambrosian Library in Milan, Italy. Missing from the accepted canon in 200 A.D. were Hebrews, James, 1 Peter and 2 Peter. Only two of John's letters were considered canonical, not three, but we don't know for sure which two. The Apocalypse of Peter and the Wisdom of Solomon, however, were included.

Eusebius of Caesara, one of the most notable Church historians to have ever lived, described (in about 300 A.D.) a canon which included only twenty-seven of the books in today's New Testament. Hebrews, James, and 2 Peter where described as questionable, as were Jude and Revelation. In the fourth century, St. Gregory of Nazianzus continued to reject Revelation and states, "You have all. If there is any any besides these, it is not among the genuine [books]." The canon he set forth was ratified some three centuries later.

The Greek Codex Claromontanus, one of the most significant New Testament manuscripts, contains a list of the canonical books of the fourth century. (The manuscript itself originates in the sixth century, however most scholars believe that the actual list dates back to the Alexandrian Church from two centuries earlier.) That list did not exclude Philippians, 1 and 2 Thessalonians or Hebrews. But guess what? It does include the Epistle of Barnabas and the Shepherd of Hermas.

Other books that are mentioned by name in today's Bibles cannot be found there at all. One example is Paul's epistle to the Laodiceans. Why was it less authoritative than his other epistles? It's mentioned in Colossians 4:16. Obviously, it was considered authoritative at the time it was written. Paul also wrote an additional epistle to the Ephesians and another to the Corinthians. When did his "apostolic authorship" come into question? Jude, too, wrote another epistle. What reason is there to believe it was so unreliable as to have been intentionally omitted from the today's canon? Or maybe it was just lost.

If we go to the Old Testament, there are even more books that are missing. These were written by "Samuel the seer," "Nathan the prophet," "Shemaiah the prophet" and others. 2 Chronicles mentions many of these by name. Why haven't we gotten rid of 2 Chronicles by now, since it references so many prophets whose work was apparently not the word of God after all?

How people can pretend that "the Bible" as we know it today (and I'm not even talking about the hundreds of different translations, but the books that constitute the canon) was somehow signed, sealed and delivered to us exactly as God wanted it to be is beyond me. Of course, this doesn't mean that we should toss the Bible out in its entirety. We just simply recognize it for what it is, and stop worshiping it instead of its author.
Interesting you have never met anyone who believes the doctrine, Millions and millions of Evangelicals do.
You misunderstood my point. Of course I've met people who claim to believe the doctrine of Sola Scriptura. But at the same time, they believe doctrines not explicitly taught in the Bible. They believe in the doctrine of the Trinity, for example, which was not part of Christianity until 325 A.D. I don't know which denomination specifically, you affiliate with, but most Protestants accept the Westminster Confession of faith which dates from as recently as 1646. Protestant theology was not the theology of the ancient Church.
I understand why you would be opposed to it if you are a Mormon, the same reason as our Catholic friend. You denomination has golden plates dug up by a "prophet" that he read with magic glasses, and the Catholics have a series of big daddies that when speaking ex cathedra speaks for and as God. Both denominations have allowed these men to create religions that share little similarity to the Apostolic Church found in the Bible. Of course you would be against sola scriptura, because the Bible because many of your doctrines aren't found there. You cannot create prophets and big daddies that warp the simple doctrines in the Bible into churches that believe in strange doctrines invented by your prophet and big daddies, and respect the Bible as the word of God at the same time. Before you think it, I am not condemning anyone's relationship with God, or your denominations relationship with God. I am simply saying that many of your doctrines are the result of sinful men, and you have purposely strayed from the church described in the Bible.
Wow. Looks like PopeADope and I struck a nerve there. I'm just going to pretend I didn't read that last little bit of sarcasm. It's something that Christians ought not to lower themselves to do to make a point.
 
Last edited:

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
And again you misconstrue... I have to wonder if it is on-purpose. Love of "self" does not equate to love of "body." Again, this should be a concept pretty easily understood.
OK. It is sinking in. Flesh though at the scripture in question does not mean the physical bones, muscle, and blood. It means the person. It is also used with a marriage where the man and the woman become one flesh. Matthew 19:5
But, if you mean the physical body, then you are probably right and I am probably wrong.
Luke 14:26
Jude 1:23
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
People want what they like done to themselves. Sometimes what they want is considered bad by others, but because they want it it can be said that nobody ever hated his or her own self.
People go for what they want. Want is a feeling they will try to satisfy. That they want to be satisfied is called never hating their own body. Ephesians 5:29

When people do damage to themselves it is because they WANT to do it.

If someone seems to hate himself thinking, "I wish I was never born" it just means he wishes he was never born to the life he is living.

If someone is wishing he would rather die, it is him wishing for the pain/loneliness/heartache to end.

It isn't because the feeling of self-love is totally missing. It is written that life is in God's image. God is love. So......nobody ever hated his own body. It's true.
 
Top