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Featured So Much for Promises

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Skwim, Jul 21, 2018.

  1. Notaclue

    Notaclue Member

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    Lk.17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God comes not with observation:

    21 Neither shall they say, See here! or, see there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.



    Rev.22:12(NAS) “Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.

    13 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

    14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.


    15 Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.

    16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.


    behold, the kingdom of God is within you.


    Rev.22:10 And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.

    11 “Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy.”



    Peace.
     
  2. allright

    allright Active Member

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    Hes not telling them it will happen in their life time How could he In verse 36 he says only the father knows the time
    and in Acts 1:6, 7 they ask him the same question and he tells them its not for them to know the times and seasons .
     
  3. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

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    Well, one thing you have to keep in mind is that the Bible breaks down certain periods of time as systems. For example, in Matthew 24:34 which system is Jesus talking about that will end? This current system which began when Adam and Eve produced offspring, or the Jewish system which ended in 70 C.E. at the destruction of Jerusalem, which those people were witnesses of, and actually fled due to Jesus warning?
     
  4. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Really! But even if it does it has no bearing on what is said in Matthew 24:34. As should be obvious, the Hebrew γενεά (genea), which has been interpreted by some as "generation" denotes a very particular period; one that conforms to the definition of "generation":

    gen·er·a·tion
    ˌjenəˈrāSH(ə)n/
    noun: generation; plural noun: generations
    1.all of the people born and living at about the same time, regarded collectively.​

    And because "generation" is preceded by the pronoun "this" it indicates all of the people currently born and living.

    And as I pointed out to Faithofchristian in post 62, "generation" is not the only interpretation of the Hebrew γενεά (genea) in Matthew 24:34. Others tell us:


    "Yes! I tell you that this people will certainly not pass away before all these things happen."

    "I assure you that all these things will happen while some of the people of this time are still living."

    "I tell you the truth, all these things will happen ·while the people of this time are still living"

    "Remember that all these things will happen before the people now living have all died."

    "For sure, I tell you, the people of this day will not pass away before all these things have happened."

    "What I’m about to tell you is true. The people living now will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."

    All of which indicates that the scholars and interpreters who put the Bibles together saw the period in question to be one that only embraced those people currently living.

    Unfortunately, after 83 posts my question my till remains unresolved:

    So what's going on? None of this came true. Was Jesus lying? Was he mistaken? Did he change his mind?


    .
     
  5. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

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    Wait a second, you are confused. The Hebrew word for generation is dohr, you are thinking of the Greek. Why would the Hebrew be a consideration for Matthew, though it was originally written in Hebrew, we would typically consider the more common Greek.


    Well, I can't keep track of my own posts, let alone anyone else's. I've posted in response to this verse and others, but I can't find it in a search. Oddly enough it just gives me a number #56 and my screen name with a link to what is basically my profile postings page. The text in the search result is the exact post I need, but all I get is #56 RothschildSaxeCoburgGotha the second result down is the post I'm looking for, but there isn't a link to it. That's just odd.

    Here is an old version of the response on the Internet Archive. Scroll to the middle of the page.

    I could repost the text, but what's the point.
     
  6. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    My mistake in calling γενεά (genea) Hebrew. It is indeed Greek. Hell, it's even spelled out in Greek letters. Just chalk it up to one of those mental moments if you would. Thank you.

    No need for you to go back to any previous post, I only noted "Faithofchristian in post 62" as a point of reference. Simply take what I said for what it is: evidence that the Greek γενεά (genea) in Matthew 24:34 means The people living now.

    .
     
  7. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

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    But the question is what end would the people living now witness? The end of the Jewish system. Not the end of this current system.
     
  8. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    I have no idea because at one time Matthew 24:34-35 was suppose to be thee definitive word on the when and what of the grand finale, but god, having blown his chance, has left Christians with nothing else to look to. I can only assume that what the people living now will witness is no more than a variation on what those of the past have witnessed. Pretty much the same-ol-same-ol: No imminent grand finale at all. Please pass the butter.


    .









     
  9. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

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    Well, in a way you're right. The planet, according to the Bible, will last forever, and mankind will live forever upon it. That was never a question. Some theology posited that the planet would be destroyed and the good people would go to heaven. That isn't scriptural.

    The destruction that the Book of Daniel, Revelation, and Jesus was referring to, some of the time, was the destruction of, what the JW's call, this system of things. This current world, political, social, religious and commercial. The kingdoms of men will be destroyed and replaced by Jehovah God's kingdom with Jesus Christ and a few, 144,000 anointed princes as rulers in heaven.

    That has happened before, with the flood of Noah's day, with the destruction of Jerusalem, which is the same thing but on a smaller and temporary scale.

    In the verses you give from Matthew 24:34-35 he is talking about the destruction of Jerusalem which happened nearly 40 years later. And the Christians knew it was coming and headed for the mountains. So it isn't a failed promise.

    Flavius Josephus was an eyewitness to it, reporting that about 1,100,000 Jews died and 100,000 were taken captive. Most of those would soon perish. This is the Roman destruction of Jerusalem of 66-70 C.E. Matthew 24:16 and Matthew 24:22 foretells how the Christians were kept safe by recognizing Jesus' prophecy and heading for the mountains.
     
    #89 Earthling, Jul 25, 2018
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 25, 2018
  10. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Matt. was written in Greek. The “Original Hebrew” hypothesis was largely abandoned by most reputable scholars. And, no, I don’t need to see your “proof.” I’ve studied it In seminary.
     
  11. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    How many interviews did this Josh Gil have with the biblical authors to ascertain their motives?

    If I want to analyze something by, say, Abraham Lincoln, I can also look at other stuff to get a clearer picture of what he might have meant. However, with biblical authors, all even the biblical scholars can do is stare at the page and make stuff up.

    The spiritual can be expressed through the brain and is also thus unreliable.

    How did the people in the scriptures understand God? There were no scriptures yet?

    If Apocalypse is coming, can I be Jean Grey?

    It's not much of a prophecy. For Jerusalem, getting sacked and burned was just a Tuesday.

    I seem to recall reading somewhere a lot of the monks couldn't read and were just copying letters, not understanding words or sentences.

    The Kingdom of Heaven is within. All a couple of sleepy guys saw was Jesus go Super Saiyan.

    There were messiahs everywhere? Like there are now?

    You can't tell me in all seriousness you've been on religious forums and never had the pleasure to meet at least several Jesuses, angels, prophets, and Gods a year.

    Metacognition is a valid path.

    Isn't Paul a Pharisee?

    If the sandal fits?

    What kills me about the fig tree stuff, like where he zaps one for not giving him fruit when it wasn't time for fruit, is that he has magic powers. He can make wine but not figs?

    I would but I lack a time machine.

    Yup, they're all dead.

    There is a difference between Coma Girl and Lazarus. Jesus insists Coma Girl is not dead, whereas he tries to use a euphemism at first with Lazarus and comes out and confirms the death. The girl WAS "asleep". Lazarus was worm food.

    Because apocalypse-mongers NEED the world to end with them. They MUST be the last and most epic generation. It gives meaning to their otherwise completely useless lives.
     
  12. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

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    Ah, that would explain why you are consistently wrong.
     
  13. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    I’m not “consistently wrong.” But it would explain why you’re consistently off-base.
     
  14. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    It is amazing how many self proclaimed experts one can find on the Internet . I am far from being an expert so I will rely on the work of experts. I would assume that translations of the Bible would have to go through a process similar to peer review so that the works of a lone loon do not appear with an official stamp of approval.

    The same applies to the sciences. I will use the works of others to show that I am correct rather than proclaiming I am right because I am an authority.
     
  15. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Bible scholarship is always done collaboratively.
     
  16. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Perhaps you should have said "true Bible scholarship". As in the sciences one cannot trust an individual to have an unbiased correct answer and it is even more that case when it comes to interpreting the Bible. But I understand and agree.
     
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