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Featured So Much for Promises

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Skwim, Jul 21, 2018.

  1. ERLOS

    ERLOS God Feeds the Ravens

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    The destruction of the temple in Jerusalem by Titus.

    Christ seems to have predicted that the apostle John would not die. There are other references to that. Separate events. The end-of-the-world and the destruction of the Jews and the Temple in year 66.

    Not difficult.
     
  2. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Check out Matthew 24:35 "The whole world, earth and sky, will be destroyed, but my words will last forever."

    Indeed why? But then god had no problem doing that with his big flood, so I don't find it surprising.

    Yup. The one other Bible versions refer to as

    "This people"
    "The people who are living"
    "The people of this day"
    "The people living now"
    "The people of this time"

    .
     
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  3. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Then explain why Jesus says "The whole world, earth and sky, will be destroyed, but my words will last forever." as part of his dire promise?
    That some other promise may have been kept is immaterial to the one Jesus made in Matthew 24:34.

    .
     
  4. ERLOS

    ERLOS God Feeds the Ravens

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    The gospels are also history. Jesus said a lot of strange things. The destruction of the temple and the end-of-the-world issues have got jumbled together. I found this Matthew 24 conundrum years ago and sorted it out over a day or two research in a monastery library. Because it's important to get it sorted out.

    Whatever ...
     
  5. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Of course they're different, but not time wise.

    ERV
    3 Later, Jesus was sitting at a place on the Mount of Olives. The followers came to be alone with him. They said, “Tell us when these things will happen. And what will happen to prepare us for your coming and the end of time?”

    CSB
    While he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately and said, “Tell us, when will these things happen? And what is the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

    CEB
    Now while Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately and said, “Tell us, when will these things happen? What will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age?”

    CEV
    Later, as Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, his disciples came to him in private and asked, “When will this happen? What will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the world?”

    EHV
    While he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately and said, “Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the world?”​

    And so forth.

    So you say, but the Bible doesn't.

    And I give up.

    Have a nice day.

    .
     
  6. ERLOS

    ERLOS God Feeds the Ravens

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    He didn't dictate to the press either. People heard him and later wrote down what he said. Those powerful words and parables that have lasted down centuries of years.

    Best wishes
     
  7. ERLOS

    ERLOS God Feeds the Ravens

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    Matthew 24:3
    Later, Jesus was sitting at a place on the Mount of Olives. The followers came to be alone with him. They said,

    (1)“Tell us when these things will happen. (Destruction of the temple.)
    Happened AD66

    (2) And what will happen to prepare us for your coming and the end of time?”
    (End-of-the-world)

    Still to occur. But which his followers assumed was going to be the same thing. And which for the miserably few survivors, in practical terms, it pretty much was.

    (Post edited for clarity)
     
    #67 ERLOS, Jul 22, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2018
  8. ERLOS

    ERLOS God Feeds the Ravens

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    These can be construed as two separate questions? If we're going to nitty-pick? lol.

    Peace brother ...
     
  9. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    First of all, that of Matthew 24:35, Jesus is using the heaven and Earth as example, that before his words would pass away. The heaven and Earth would pass away first. Before his words would.

    So it's not the heaven and Earth is actually going to pass away. Jesus is just using the heaven and Earth as an example to show before his words would pass away,
    the heaven and earth would do so first.

    Therefore showing as long as the heaven and Earth are here, his words will also remain.

    Care to explain exactly how are people who are alive now, will be here at the time of Jesus return ?

    To know exactly what generation will be here at the time of Jesus return, this is where the parable of the fig tree comes into play, in knowing what generation fits into the parable of the fig tree. Mark 13:28.

    First a person would have to know what the parable of the fig tree is and what generation fits into the parable of the fig tree. Mark 13:28
     
  10. ERLOS

    ERLOS God Feeds the Ravens

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    Of course! Thank you! And is that so hard for people to understand? Unless they deliberately don't want to understand, lol
     
  11. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    But he says his words will never pass away. They will "last forever," "never disappear," "never pass away," "never be destroyed," etc. etc..


    Matthew 24:34-35 (ERV)
    34 I assure you that all these things will happen while some of the people of this time are still living. 35 The whole world, earth and sky, will be destroyed, but my words will last forever.

    Matthew 24:34-35 (ISV)
    34 I tell all of you with certainty, this generation won’t disappear until these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will disappear, but my words will never disappear.”

    Matthew 24:34-35 (GNT)

    34 Remember that all these things will happen before the people now living have all died. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

    Matthew 24:35 (ICB)
    34 I tell you the truth. All these things will happen while the people of this time are still living! 35 The whole world, earth and sky, will be destroyed, but the words I have said will never be destroyed!

    ETC.

    ETC.

    ETC.


    Good grief man, don't you read your Bible?

    And note, if you will, when this will take place (from the above quoted verses):

    "while some of the people of this time are still living"
    "this generation"
    "before the people now living have all died"
    "while the people of this time are still living"


    No more than I care to explain how Noah saved two each of the eight million species on earth, or why Trump is kissing Putin's ***. But your question here is irrelevant, isn't it. It has absolutely no bearing on why Jesus lied, or was mistaken, or changed his mind and left the reader scratching his head.

    .
     
    #71 Skwim, Jul 22, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2018
  12. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    The first point of wisdom is to know to whom it belongs and who can give it to you. And also not to be wise in your own opinion. So no I'm not wise and Christians shouldn't consider themselves wise.
    Proverbs chapter 1 implies as much. It speaks of being able to understand the words of the wise and their "acute sayings". So if it was easy to understand then there is no need to tell us that.
    See you read it from the perspective of the atheist. Jesus spoke only of spiritual things. His own disciples were often confused. He said "beware the leaven of the pharisees" and they thought He meant bread.

    Jesus also said "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

    I suppose you would say that also did not come true because they're all dead?
    We're all from planet earth. That's my point. We cannot understand the things of God without God's help.
    You trust in yourself. We try to trust in God.
    The Bible is what speaks of the "double minded man" who is "unstable" in all his ways. (James 1:8) It just so happens that science proves we are all double minded because we have a left and right hemisphere. We're all double minded. But we can become spiritually minded.
     
  13. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Well it's been what, about 2000 years since Jesus spoke those words and his words haven't pass away.

    Just for your information, at the time of Noah there were no eight million species of animals, I don't how or where you got that at.
    And what does Trump and Putin have to do with Matthew 24:35.
    How did they get into the conversation ?
    You just jump all over the place.
    Let's try and stay with the conversation at hand in Matthew 24:35
     
  14. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    "Irreversible cessation of bodily functions", or words to that effect.
    The people he's talking to ─ his immediate audience. He's telling them, before you die, you'll see the triumph of my god on earth.
    It starts at Luke 13:6 and ends at Luke 13:9:

    Luke 13:6 And he told this parable: "A man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came seeking fruit on it and found none. 7 And he said to the vinedresser, 'Lo, these three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and I find none. Cut it down; why should it use up the ground?' 8 And he answered him, 'Let it alone, sir, this year also, till I dig about it and put on manure. 9 And if it bears fruit next year, well and good; but if not, you can cut it down.'"​

    I'm surprised you didn't know that.
     
  15. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    The destruction of the temple in Jesusalem by Titus what? Interrupted the schedule? But surely 2000 years is an unreasonably long time to fix it. Even my phone company is quicker than that.

    Or are you saying that somewhere, probably in the Middle East, there's a roomful of people 2000 years old?
    What prediction and what references are you referring to, exactly? And how would that be relevant?
     
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  16. Regiomontanus

    Regiomontanus non est ad astra mollis e terris via

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    Yes, good point. Just because the the NT says Jesus said _____ does mean he really did. I mean none of them knew Jesus and they wrote 40 (Mark) to 70 (John) years after Jesus was crucified.
     
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  17. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    I didn't say "animals." I said "species," which obviously include animals, plants, fungi, and some lesser known forms of life.

    Well, first I Googled "number of species on earth" which brought me to https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/08/110823180459.htm

    I'm sorry a simple comparison throws you off so badly. I was comparing how much I care to explain exactly how are people who are alive now and will be here at the time of Jesus return, to other things I might do, such as explaining how Noah saved two each of the eight million species on earth, or why Trump is kissing Putin's ***. I don't care to any of them.

    .
     
  18. Notaclue

    Notaclue Member

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    Jn.17:3 (K.J.V.) And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

    4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

    5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.




    glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.




    Rev.21:22 (NAS) I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

    23 And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb.



    for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb.



    The Lamb is the lamp.



    Rev.22:3(N.A.S) There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it,(her)* and His bond-servants will serve Him;

    4 they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads.

    5 And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.


    No need of the light of the Lamb(Lamp).


    the Lord God will illumine them.



    glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.



    Acts 2:32 (KJV) This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

    33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.



    Acts13:32 (YLT) And we to you do proclaim good news — that the promise made unto the fathers,

    33 God hath in full completed this to us their children, having raised up Jesus, as also in the second Psalm it hath been written, My Son thou art — I to-day have begotten thee.



    2Cor.1:19 (NAS) For the Son of God, Christ Jesus, who was preached among you by us—by me and Silvanus and Timothy—was not yes and no, but is yes in Him.

    20 For as many as are the promises of God, in Him they are yes; therefore also through Him is our Amen to the glory of God through us.




    The promises have been fulfilled.



    *will be in it,(her)*.......Tree of Life.


     
  19. A Vestigial Mote

    A Vestigial Mote Well-Known Member

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    Hmm... maybe I am just daft (could very well be in this topic, I'm not going to lie), but the above reads like it actually reinforces @Skwim's claim in the OP that Jesus' proclamation ended up being a promise broken. The above quote doesn't even read like an apologetic... it reads like it means exactly what the words state! I mean, just look at the premises, dissected:

    So NOT humanity as a whole - NOT this general, ongoing body, got it...

    And NOT the Jews as a whole - NOT that general, ongoing body either, got it...

    And NOT the Christians as a whole - NOT that general, ongoing body either, got it...

    So instead it is the SPECIFIC generation of men in THAT present age or generation! that's what this last bit says as far as I can tell...

    I would swear this is pointing DIRECTLY to @Skwim's conclusion. That the meaning is exactly THAT age or generation of men listening to Jesus at that moment (note red here versus red above)- and that some of them would still be alive by the time the prophecies were fulfilled.

    Am I crazy here? How does this work as a defense against this being a broken promise? I must be missing something...
     
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  20. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    Then we should ask the Lord Jesus himself for the answer. Did the generation which the Lord Jesus Christ passed away?

    Matthew 9:23-25 New International Version (NIV)
    When Jesus entered the synagogue leader’s house and saw the noisy crowd and people playing pipes, he said, “Go away. The girl is not dead but asleep.” But they laughed at him. After the crowd had been put outside, he went in and took the girl by the hand, and she got up.

    John 11:11-15 New International Version (NIV)
    After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.”

    His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.” Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.

    So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead, and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.”

    Did the generation really passed away? According to the Lord Jesus Christ, they are just asleep. And the Bible refers to people who are in Christ are dead in Christ, and are asleep.

    Like Stephen:

    Acts 7:59-60 New International Version (NIV)
    While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” Then he fell on his knees and cried out, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” When he had said this, he fell asleep.

    Like King David:

    Acts 13:36-37 New International Version (NIV)
    “Now when David had served God’s purpose in his own generation, he fell asleep; he was buried with his ancestors and his body decayed. But the one whom God raised from the dead did not see decay.

    Now this refers to the generation that the Lord Jesus was talking about:

    1 Corinthians 15:3-6 New International Version (NIV)
    For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.

    1 Corinthians 15:20 New International Version (NIV)
    But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

    When a person or people for that matter belong to the Lord Jesus Christ and dies - they are considered just asleep.

    1 Thessalonians 5:1-10 New International Version (NIV)
    Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

    But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

    CONCLUSION: So the Lord Jesus Christ, meant what he said and he did not made a mistake.
     
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