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Featured So Much for Promises

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Skwim, Jul 21, 2018.

  1. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    :thumbsup:



    Okay. One can't trust anything Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John say.

    .
     
  2. ERLOS

    ERLOS God Feeds the Ravens

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    In fact, in another place, Jesus said no-one but the Father knew when the final end would come. There are several contradictions in the gospels, which gives more cause for their validity -- that these kinks were not conveniently ironed out. The monks who copied and re-copied made every effort to scrupulously reproduce them.

    The early Christians, belived in an immanent end of the world and final coming of the Christ.

    The meaning of the above statement by Christ was obviously about the coming Jewish rebellion and the utter destruction and dispersion of the Jews and the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem by Titus. Massada in the year 66. It's easy to see how it was interposed.
     
    #42 ERLOS, Jul 22, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2018
  3. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    William Lane Craig? The one that relies on a dishonest version of the Kalam Cosmological Argument? He may be less dishonest than most but he still fails.
     
  4. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    you're defending an interpretation of text. your interpretation. someone who defends something that is considered controversial is taking an apologist position.
     
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  5. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

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    :D more like statements in the form of a question.
     
  6. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

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    Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

    And they did, on the Mount of Transfiguration.
     
  7. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

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    Actually... no.

    The context starts at the beginning:
    4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you.
    5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many.
    6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.
    7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places.
    8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

    No one in His time came saying "I am the Messiah"... so "this people" are noted to be in "the generation" that saw all of these happening.
     
  8. Apologes

    Apologes Active Member

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    You'd better provide an account of why that argument is dishonest (if an argument can even be dishonest) as it seems serious enough to pass through the peer-review process of proffesional journals in analytic philosophy.
     
  9. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Really? That terribly flawed argument has passed peer review? I have my doubts. And it is probably not the bastardized version that Craig uses. An argument becomes "dishonest" when it has been refuted countless times and yet it is continually used. The problem with Craig's argument is that he tries to argue that the universe had to have a "cause" that started it. That may be true. But then he makes the giant and unsupported leap that that cause was a god and specifically the Christian God. He tries to do so by defining that cause as "God" that is dishonest since it is a rather worthless definition of "God". God could be an unconscious uncaring natural force by that definition. Something that may be understood by man eventually. Worse yet he then assumes it has to be the Christian God with no justification whatsoever.

    David Lane Craig's version of the Kalam is definitely not the version that possibly passed peer review. He merely hijacked the phrase at best.

    EDIT: And as a bonus a nice article refuting the Kalam and especially the personal God version of it:

    http://spot.colorado.edu/~morristo/wes2craig1.pdf
     
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  10. Hubert Farnsworth

    Hubert Farnsworth Well-Known Member

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    You omitted verse 27 which references angels and judgment. There were no angels or judgment in the transfiguration chapter.
     
  11. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Just for the record, that's not the only time this is mentioned. A more complete list is:

    Mark 9:1 And he said to them, “Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.”​

    Mark 13:28 “From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near. 29 So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 30 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away before all these things take place.

    Matthew 16:28 Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.”

    Matthew 24:32 “From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away till all these things take place.

    Luke 9:27 But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God.”​
     
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  12. Apologes

    Apologes Active Member

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    You can see the peer-reviewed articles on this section of his site among other places:

    https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writings/scholarly-writings/

    Your doubt about his credidentials is unjustified.

    You don't know much about the Kalam do you? Craig's defense of the argument is by far the most robust and has landed him as one of its best proponents.

    A testament to Craig's quality work can be found in the words of one of his critics, the atheist philosopher Quentin Smith: "a count of the articles in the philosophy journals shows that more articles have been published about Craig’s defense of the Kalam argument than have been published about any other philosopher’s contemporary formulation of an argument for God’s existence" - Quentin Smith, "Kalam Cosmological Arguments for Atheism", in Michael Martin (ed.), The Cambridge Companion to Atheism, Cambridge University Press, 2007, p. 183

    That's a case of a dishonest proponent who ignores criticism, not a dishonest argument. Needless to say, the Kalam is far from refuted as new literature is still written on it from both sides of the debate.

    You should read more of Craig's work since he openly claims the Kalam doesn't get you to Christianity on its own hence why he proposes a cummulative case in which only the Ressurection argument serves as a piece of explicitly christian evidence.

    As far as "defining God" goes, the closest he gets to playing on a definition is in his rarely used Modal Ontological Argument borrowed from Alvin Plantinga. It has nothing to do with Kalam.

    Regardless, that would be flawed thinking, not a "lie for Jesus".

    If you had bothered to check the basic history of the argument (and Craig's career) you'd avoid such embarassing accusations.

    Regardless, I do want to see what evidence you have that he hijacked the argument.

    I don't think Morriston will help you much unless he claimed somewhere in that article that Kalam is a bunch of lies and that Craig is a liar.
     
    #52 Apologes, Jul 22, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2018
  13. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    First there is no where that Jesus said everything will be destroyed.

    Why would the trees, flowers, animals, fish and ect ------? Need to be destroyed, seeing they didn't commit anything worthy of being destroyed ?

    Have you any idea what generation Jesus is referring to ?
     
  14. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Have you any idea who death is ?
    What is the name of Death ?
    What generation is Jesus referring too ?
    What is the parable of the fig tree, that Jesus is in reference to ?
    When did the parable of the fig tree start and when does it end ?
     
  15. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    This may be of some help also
    1st Corinthians 2:14--"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned"

    There are alot of things that are written in the bible, That will take Spiritually discernment to understand the things that are spiritual.
     
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  16. ERLOS

    ERLOS God Feeds the Ravens

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    Verses one and two Matthew 24:1-2 refer to the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem, by Rome, that did in fact happen in the year 66. Whole most of those who heard Jesus speak were indeed still living. It was a terrible time. Read Josephus Jewish War.

    Verses thereafter are tangled up with end-of-the-world and second coming comments.

    Have another look Matthew 24.

    The two separate events have got mixed up in the telling. It's really very reasonable and not difficult to understand, imo.
     
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  17. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Then it's interesting that the verse that follows, Matthew 24:35, says "The whole world, earth and sky, will be destroyed, but my words will last forever."

    .
     
  18. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Yup, just like his promise that "This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away." never came to pass. So Jesus

    1) Lied
    2) Was mistaken
    3) Changed his mind
    Take your pick.

    .
     
  19. ERLOS

    ERLOS God Feeds the Ravens

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    In Matthew 24:3 the disciples ask him two sepaeate questions: 1) Tell us about these events 2) AND about the end of the world.

    Two different things. 1)The destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, and 2) the end-of-the-world.

    Christ knew that. His listeners did not.

    The two events got mixed up in the telling.

    As your comment Matthew 24:35 he said a lot of mysterious things. Perhaps he meant that as the Christ, his words were permanent. I don't know.

    But seriously, the confusion between the destruction of the temple and thd final coming is quite obvious and not hard to explain? Imo?
     
  20. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Thank you. :thumbsup:

    .
     
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