So much for Indonesia being a bastion of tolerance...

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Looks like the allegedly secular government of Indonesia, that bastion of tolerance in the Islamic world, has been stoking homophobic and transphobic tensions and has been allowing local authorities to pass laws based on Islam which sanction criminal punishment for being gay. They also refuse to pass laws making homophobic or transphobic bigotry a hate crime.

Source

Does this surprise anyone?

 

[LuisDantas]

This goes beyond disappointing, if at all true.

Answering your question: no, I am not truly surprised. I have had to accept by now that with certain beliefs the only choice is whether to challenge them actively or else to be corrupted by them.

 

[jeager106]

“No room” for LGBTI people says Indonesia.

Not at all surprising.
Not a tolerant or safe place for the LGBTI people.
The report said that Indonesia’s government uses anti-LGBTI campaigns that includes hateful rhetoric, discriminatory edicts, and the use of force to repress peaceful assembly.

The 56-page report, “‘These Political Games Ruin Our Lives’: Indonesia’s LGBT Community Under Threat,” documents how officials’ biased and untrue statements LGBTI people provided social sanction for harassment and violence and even death threats by militant Islamists.

For example, Recently, Ryamizard Ryacudu, Indonesia’s defense minister, labelled LGBTI rights activism as a “proxy war” on the nation led by “outsiders, more dangerous than a nuclear bomb”. While minister for political, legal, and security affairs, Luhut Pandjaitan said that homosexuality “is a disease of a chromosome, and it should be treated.”

State media only allows biased portrayal of LGBTI people, and any attempts at portraying them as “normal” people is deemed as propaganda.

In the wake of surging anti-LGBTI sentiments in 2016, Islamist parties like Prosperous Justice Party (PKS) and United Development Party (PPP), have proposed an anti LGBTI bill to ban rights activism, and criminalise LGBTI behaviour.

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Read source for more details.

So the Islamic government wants to criminalize LGBTI behavior. Really?

A woman flogged in public for "dating" a man.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

See photo.

 

[LuisDantas]

So the Islamic government wants to criminalize LGBTI behavior. Really?

I don't know if the government qualifies as Islamic exactly (and that worries me that much more), but I have been consistently be told that there is no way for Muslims, let alone Muslim authorities, to approve of LGBTI.

 

[jeager106]

I don't know if the government qualifies as Islamic exactly (and that worries me that much more), but I have been consistently be told that there is no way for Muslims, let alone Muslim authorities, to approve of LGBTI.

Well it isn't a case of authorities that "approve" of anything.
It's a case of laws protecting citizens regardless of sexual orientation, politics,
religion, etc., etc.
It isn't law enforcement's duty to approve or disapprove of behavior.
I can speak with authority on that matter.

Islam is intolerant of LGBTI behavior, period.
Suspected homosexual behavior is harshly dealt with. Like death!

 

[jeager106]

I don't know if the government qualifies as Islamic exactly (and that worries me that much more), but I have been consistently be told that there is no way for Muslims, let alone Muslim authorities, to approve of LGBTI.

Really?
200 million (88.2% of total population) people who identify themselves as Muslim.

Me, not being very smart, would conclude that Indonesia is an Islamic state.
Thoughts?
I have an open mind and have nothing against being corrected about misrepresenting
facts.
What is 88.2 % of 200 million anyway.
I ain't smart enough to figure that out.

 

[LuisDantas]

Really?
200 million (88.2% of total population) people who identify themselves as Muslim.

Me, not being very smart, would conclude that Indonesia is an Islamic state.
Thoughts?
I have an open mind and have nothing against being corrected about misrepresenting
facts.
What is 88.2 % of 200 million anyway.
I ain't smart enough to figure that out.

As I said, I have little idea of how the Indonesian government is. I do know that there is a healthy percentage of Hindus there, though.

 

[jeager106]

Hinduism in Indonesia is practised by 1.7% of the total population, and by 83.5% of the population in Bali as of the 2010 census.[1] Hinduism is one of the six official religions of Indonesia.[2] In 2010, there were an estimated total of over 4 million Hindus in Indonesia.

1.7% is a healthy population?
O.K.
Good 'nuff fer me.

 

[LuisDantas]

I stand corrected. Sorry.

 

[jeager106]

I stand corrected. Sorry.

S'okay.

 

[Augustus]

I don't know if the government qualifies as Islamic exactly (and that worries me that much more), but I have been consistently be told that there is no way for Muslims, let alone Muslim authorities, to approve of LGBTI.

Apparently 42% of US Muslims support same-sex marriages. They are not really representative of the global 'ummah', but I suppose it is something.


http://reason.com/blog/2016/06/13/in-america-muslims-are-more-likely-to-su

Me, not being very smart, would conclude that Indonesia is an Islamic state.

Constitutionally, it is not Islamic. It is pretty unique as the state ideology Pancasila contains 'belief in the one god' as a guiding principle and emphasises religiosity but this includes Islam, Catholicism, Protestantism, Buddhism, Hinduism and Confucianism as the 6 recognised religions. Everyone must have one of these on their ID cards.

There are still some animist communities and even a small number of Jews, but they are not officially recognised and have to register as being part of an official religion.

Officially all religions are equal, but in practice Islam is often favoured. Some regions have various local bylaws that are overtly Islamic.

 

[GoodbyeDave]

Islam varies considerably within the country. The Javanese are relatively tolerant, the Sumatrans less so, and the Aceh (in northern Sumatra) are notoriously bigoted. Aceh fought the central government until 2002, when they were granted the right to use sharia. Now homosexuals can get 100 lashes, which at least leaves them better off than adulterers, who get stoned.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

I don't know if the government qualifies as Islamic exactly (and that worries me that much more), but I have been consistently be told that there is no way for Muslims, let alone Muslim authorities, to approve of LGBTI.

And yet some of us are LGBTQI..

 

[Revoltingest]

Looks like the allegedly secular government of Indonesia, that bastion of tolerance in the Islamic world, has been stoking homophobic and transphobic tensions and has been allowing local authorities to pass laws based on Islam which sanction criminal punishment for being gay. They also refuse to pass laws making homophobic or transphobic bigotry a hate crime.

Source

Does this surprise anyone?

Actually, I really like not making bigotry a crime.
Criminalizing thought could lead to very very bad places.
But criminalizing being gay is also pretty bad.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Actually, I really like not making bigotry a crime.
Criminalizing thought could lead to very very bad places.
But criminalizing being gay is also pretty bad.

Well hate crimes laws don't criminalise thoughts - they criminalise the actions informed by them. Big difference.

 

[Revoltingest]

Well hate crimes laws don't criminalise thoughts - they criminalise the actions informed by them. Big difference.

Of course, actions matter.
But bigotry itself shouldn't be criminalized.

Btw, if someone attacks me, I don't particularly care if their motive is bigotry, hatred, anger, etc.

 

[jeager106]

Actions???
Like this?
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-pakistan-blast-idUSKCN10K0SK

or this?
Jihad Report
July, 2016
Attacks 194
Killed 1671
Injured 2249
Suicide Blasts 32
Countries 24

All in the name of some "god" .
Actions of the religious zealots who commit murder in the name of some "god".
Now that is an example of promoting a religion at the point of a sword.
Or bomb.
Homosexuals are dealt with promptly.
By execution.
Islam really IS the "religion of peace". One wonders how that got twisted into
a piece of me and a piece of you blown all over the place?
I ask; "what other religion in our time has gotten so twisted as this one and on
such a massive scale?"
The Crusades pale in comparison.
Recall that only 15% of the world of Islam believes in violent Jihad.
What is 15% of 2.1 billion anyway?

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...d-london-join-isil-killed-airstrike/88605342/

The young an impressionable sometimes pay a very high price.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Of course, actions matter.
But bigotry itself shouldn't be criminalized.

Btw, if someone attacks me, I don't particularly care if their motive is bigotry, hatred, anger, etc.

You might not care but society probably will. Identifying why a crime is committed is, IMO essential to understanding how best to combat crime. Frankly, your apathy towards bigotry being criminalised sounds like white privilege because after all how many times are white people the victims of prejudice or bigotry compared to other ethnicities? It matters a great deal to minorities in society that bigotry is legislated against.

 

[Revoltingest]

You might not care but society probably will. Identifying why a crime is committed is, IMO essential to understanding how best to combat crime. Frankly, your apathy towards bigotry being criminalised sounds like white privilege because after all how many times are white people the victims of prejudice or bigotry compared to other ethnicities? It matters a great deal to minorities in society that bigotry is legislated against.

Well, society & I differ on many things.
And please excuse my "privilege"....I just can't help myself.
I was born into it
It wasn't a choice.
This makes it impossible for me to understand things which you minorities can know.
So I believe a simple thing....
Committing crimes against people is wrong, no matter what their race, gender or religion.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Well, society & I differ on many things.
And please excuse my "privilege"....I just can't help myself.
I was born into it
It wasn't a choice.
This makes it impossible for me to understand things which you minorities can know.
So I believe a simple thing....
Committing crimes against people is wrong, no matter what their race, gender or religion.

I worded what I said poorly. It wasn't meant as an accusation (though the way I worded it made it sound quite the opposite) because, as you succinctly put, privilege is not something you can help. Unfortunately the libertarian approach on this i.e. 'just stick it all under the same laws, it makes no difference' does not help to actually correct the problems that caused said crimes in the first place.