Smoking Gun, Oh Atheists?

[SkepticThinker]

I drew all five points from your last remarks--but I keep seeing people who twist my words here and never repost their original comments. I'm not going to search through old messages.

You included much that I did not actually say, nor do I think I implied it. Nonetheless, I have now clarified.

I posted your comments in their entirety. So I don't know why you're complaining to me about that.

Go ahead and restate whatever point(s) you'd like me to address and I surely shall.

Once again, I'm going to ask you to respond to the content of my last post. You have not done that here and have now requested that I restate my points for some reason.

 

[BilliardsBall]

So you were dishonest or got confused while performing your mental gymnastics? In one post you said god was not all-powerful and not- all knowing because it was the only thing you could say to defend your beliefs, then in a later post you're back to saying god is all- powerful and all-knowing. You want me to share your beliefs but you can't even keep your own story straight.

Also remember, if god is all-powerful and all-knowing than logically free will is an illusion.



But it's still his power and he knows exactly how its going to be used before he shares it because he's all-knowing, so free will is an illusion according to YOUR beliefs. Logic is awesome isn't it? It mucks up your nonsensical arguments with ease, what to do?

I haven't changed my views on power and free will since before I came to this forum--but I believe you were interjecting in my conversation with others and so may have missed some of my comments, perhaps . . . ?

God is all powerful. The most powerful non-God beings can connote or share or delegate power. POTUS can and/or Congress can appoint Supreme Court judges who wield immense power for life.

You know what? I can AGREE with you that, as you wrote, "if god is all-powerful and all-knowing than logically free will is an illusion" if I understand your "all-powerful" to mean "has all power".

How does someone who "has all power" share power? He doesn't! A CEO can do most anything in a corporation--except the labor of thousands of employees or share the Board's power of the SEC's power.

God is ABLE to do anything; has chosen to share power via free will.

 

[BilliardsBall]

1) The biblical god does not exist.

2) The biblical god is sadistic.

My kind advice would be for you to deal with 1 and not worry about 2 because it's irrelevant.

Then why come to a forum to argue against the book about stuff that never happened with an imaginary God? Do I go to Tolkien, Dark Tower and Dune forums to pick fights with fans and aficionados?

 

[JustWondering]

I haven't changed my views on power and free will since before I came to this forum--but I believe you were interjecting in my conversation with others and so may have missed some of my comments, perhaps . . . ?

Then why do you say blatantly contradictory things?

God is all powerful. The most powerful non-God beings can connote or share or delegate power. POTUS can and/or Congress can appoint Supreme Court judges who wield immense power for life.

Compare the above statement from you with the statement below that is also from you.

Answer: God is not omnipotent or all powerful. Omnipotence is a philosophical word, not a biblical word. God chooses to share power with you. You choose your eternal destiny. God did, in answer to your question, create everything, including creative persons with their own creation potential (one reason why we're made in His image).

I didn't miss anything.

You know what? I can AGREE with you that, as you wrote, "if god is all-powerful and all-knowing than logically free will is an illusion" if I understand your "all-powerful" to mean "has all power".

How does someone who "has all power" share power? He doesn't! A CEO can do most anything in a corporation--except the labor of thousands of employees or share the Board's power of the SEC's power.

So by your logic god used to be all-powerful, then he gave some of his power away and is therefore no longer all-powerful. Regardless, he still created the game and set all the pieces in motion. If he was all-powerful and all-knowing at the beginning, free will is still an illusion. You have yet to give a logical argument to support free will.

God is ABLE to do anything; has chosen to share power via free will.

Can he create a rock so heavy and dense that even he cannot lift or destroy it?

 

[JustWondering]

Then why come to a forum to argue against the book about stuff that never happened with an imaginary God? Do I go to Tolkien, Dark Tower and Dune forums to pick fights with fans and aficionados?

I come to a RELIGOUS DEBATE forum to debate about religious topics. Why are you here?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Then why come to a forum to argue against the book about stuff that never happened with an imaginary God? Do I go to Tolkien, Dark Tower and Dune forums to pick fights with fans and aficionados?

This isn't a Christian forum.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I come to a RELIGOUS DEBATE forum to debate about religious topics. Why are you here?

Oh, what is the name of the religious debate forum?

 

[BilliardsBall]

Then why do you say blatantly contradictory things?



Compare the above statement from you with the statement below that is also from you.



I didn't miss anything.



So by your logic god used to be all-powerful, then he gave some of his power away and is therefore no longer all-powerful. Regardless, he still created the game and set all the pieces in motion. If he was all-powerful and all-knowing at the beginning, free will is still an illusion. You have yet to give a logical argument to support free will.



Can he create a rock so heavy and dense that even he cannot lift or destroy it?

I apologize. I did post God is all-powerful and is not all-powerful. I think it's now clarified to say He shares power, humbly.

But why do I need to "prove" free will since 1) it is self-evident 2) it is the underpinning of all human law and jurisprudence--words like "responsible party" or "bad choice" have no meaning apart from free will and 3) the scientific evidence proving "determinism" only proves that God designed bodies to react at speed to certain stimuli.

No, God cannot create a rock so heavy and dense He cannot lift it. He upholds and stretches the universe, which can be taken collectively as one giant mass.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Oh, what is the name of the religious debate forum?

Psst... this thread is in General Religious Debates.

 

[BilliardsBall]

This isn't a Christian forum.

It isn't? It's a place for skeptics and atheists to beat on religionists, then?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

It isn't? It's a place for skeptics and atheists to beat on religionists, then?

What makes you think this is a Christian forum? It's for all religions and none to discuss things.

 

[JustWondering]

I apologize. I did post God is all-powerful and is not all-powerful. I think it's now clarified to say He shares power, humbly.

So you are retracting your statements about god not being all-everything?

But why do I need to "prove" free will since

1) it is self-evident

Obviously it isn't or we wouldn't be debating about it.

2) it is the underpinning of all human law and jurisprudence--words like "responsible party" or "bad choice" have no meaning apart from free will

The ability to make decisions does not equal free will. How we make decisions is COMPLETELY dependent on how our minds work and what stimuli we are exposed to, both of those things are outside our control. If a creator exists, it set the rules and everything in motion. Therefore everything will happen as it intended it to happen, hence, no free will.

3) the scientific evidence proving "determinism" only proves that God designed bodies to react at speed to certain stimuli.

How we respond to things is also determined by how our minds function. If a god designed our minds and everything we experience, then free will cannot exist. The only way for YOUR version of free will to exist is if we lived in a universe without cause and effect. Since we clearly live in a universe of cause and effect your version of free will CANNOT exist.

No, God cannot create a rock so heavy and dense He cannot lift it. He upholds and stretches the universe, which can be taken collectively as one giant mass.

How do you know this? How do you know what god is capable of and incapable of?

 

[JustWondering]

What makes you think this is a Christian forum? It's for all religions and none to discuss things.

I love some theists reactions to non-believers. They're so wrapped up in their beliefs they simply cannot comprehend someone not believing as they do. When forced to confront the fact that their beliefs are not acceptable by others they try to justify it with smearing those that don't belief as they do and/or playing the victim.

 

[JustWondering]

It isn't? It's a place for skeptics and atheists to beat on religionists, then?

Don't you find it even a little ironic that after arguing for free will all this time that when someone uses their "free will" to disagree with you the only response you have to it is to basically whine about it?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Correct. You only needed a God to give you a conscience that speaks against murder.

Pretty sure I didn't need god to know murder is wrong.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

They're so wrapped up in their beliefs they simply cannot comprehend someone not believing as they do.

I hate where this often goes, which is usually how you, the non-believer, live a life with no point or purpose and just so depressing that you just can't possibly be happy or fulfilled so you need the believer's god, or just some random god, just so long as you believe in something.
It's just as bad and offensive of saying you can't be a good or moral person without god.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Don't you find it even a little ironic that after arguing for free will all this time that when someone uses their "free will" to disagree with you the only response you have to it is to basically whine about it?

Because it's akin to yelling fire in a crowded theatre. We're not talking about free will as much as using free will for evil!

 

[BilliardsBall]

So you are retracting your statements about god not being all-everything?


Obviously it isn't or we wouldn't be debating about it.


The ability to make decisions does not equal free will. How we make decisions is COMPLETELY dependent on how our minds work and what stimuli we are exposed to, both of those things are outside our control. If a creator exists, it set the rules and everything in motion. Therefore everything will happen as it intended it to happen, hence, no free will.


How we respond to things is also determined by how our minds function. If a god designed our minds and everything we experience, then free will cannot exist. The only way for YOUR version of free will to exist is if we lived in a universe without cause and effect. Since we clearly live in a universe of cause and effect your version of free will CANNOT exist.


How do you know this? How do you know what god is capable of and incapable of?

**Since we clearly live in a universe of cause and effect your version of free will CANNOT exist.**

I think you are confusing God is sovereign over all (He made us or our parents and knew in advance how we would choose) with the moral responsibilities for the choices He foreknew. For example, I "knew" you wouldn't be open to my last post--you're not--and that you would continue to argue with me--but I sure didn't "force you" to disagree with me. You see the problem you'll have telling God He is responsible for your sinful choices? We can put human twins in a given situation and they behave differently . . .

**How do you know this? How do you know what god is capable of and incapable of?

You're right--I don't know if God can make a rock so heavy, He cannot lift it, other than:

1) It would have to exceed the mass of the known universe, since He moves this now

2) It would be illogical for Him to behave illogically

3) He would have to ASSEMBLE THE MASS OF SUCH A ROCK BY MOVING MATTER AND ENERGY TO FORM SAID ROCK, so . . . NO. In "creating" the rock, he already MOVED ITS MASS.

**So you are retracting your statements about god not being all-everything?

Yes, for I think it helps us both understand that WE are in charge and responsible for rejecting or accepting Christ and for our moral failings and successes.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Pretty sure I didn't need god to know murder is wrong.

Correct! Because biblically speaking, your conscience is a God-given tool for training and correction in righteousness.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I think you are confusing God is sovereign over all (He made us or our parents and knew in advance how we would choose) with the moral responsibilities for the choices He foreknew. For example, I "knew" you wouldn't be open to my last post--you're not--and that you would continue to argue with me--but I sure didn't "force you" to disagree with me. You see the problem you'll have telling God He is responsible for your sinful choices? We can put human twins in a given situation and they behave differently . . .

Responsibility isn't a zero-sum game. If God is sovereign over all, and the ultimate source of all, then he's ultimately responsible for every human action that he could foresee and prevent. And if he's omnisicient and omnipotent, he could foresee and prevent any human action.