Smoking Gun, Oh Atheists?

[BilliardsBall]

Then why is it that you speak with an accent and dialect that could reveal to various sorts of linguists where you were raised (unless you're like me and erase it to go from rural Hoosier speak to blander-than-bland well-read/educated Midwest sounding - or get around a new group of people long enough that you start to adopt the jargon and phrases that seem new to you, and even possibly adopt accents)?
The very fact we can look at things Western thought and religion and compare them to those of the East and see such stark differences is more than enough to put up a very huge obstacle that this "free will" must overcome to be demonstrated as a real phenomena. And then if--and only if--it can clear that hurdle then it has to explain mental disorders that effect behavior and personality, as well as culture bound syndromes.
And it's next obstacle to clear are the many and repeated experiments that have shown we can predict the behavior of most people under certain circumstances. The most obvious evidence for this position is advertising, and how it has people rushing out to buy things they don't actually want or need. There is a reason billions are spent on it, and billions more pumped into researching how to make it more effective.

In some cases, yes. It's very rare, but at times someone is under such stress and duress that the courts have ruled they were not in control when the crime was committed.

And how they display these things are culturally determined. It's rather amazing actually, that something like stress can manifest as different symptoms in different cultures. Or, the cases of some, if it's even considered proper to display such signs at all.

Last I knew, only those who believe in god (or a devil, as is often the case) are the ones blaming this entity. But, even still, when I believed in god I didn't blame him (but the devil sure did fill me with bad thoughts and temptations).

That persons disbelieve in free will--even a majority of persons--does not discount it as true. All jurisprudence is based on people accepting free will responsibility.

You are making my point when you mention duress and stress--the persons who are exonerated of crimes because their free will was absent were under so much stress that they were functionally abnormally. It is abnormal in jurisprudence to not have the ability to make free will decisions. I'm said not to have free will when I am mentally unwell, under immense stress or held captive by another. At all other times, people are expected to decide and choose.

My hope for you is that you will embrace the free willed love of Jesus, given to you by His choice.

 

[BilliardsBall]

That's right: the god you propose would be a very flawed source of goodness.

Do you believe in a perfect god?

You shifted the goalposts again. We can talk about how perfect Jesus Christ is after you take responsibility--you wish to blame God for evil but not praise Him for good. Is that not the very definition of one-sided blame, of--respectfully I say this to you--hypocrisy?

A mass murderer can have a reduced sentence for good behavior, but you will only say God is evil and not good at all?

 

[BilliardsBall]

You keep asserting this. I asked you if you could demonstrate this (twice).


Human beings can make decisions using the emotion, logic and reason our brains are capable of. We know that brains exist. We don't know that any god(s) exist.

2) You've asserted that it's god-given. Please demonstrate this.

I guess we could move on to the conscience being god-given after you and I define terms. I asked if the conscience is a tool for human training and you gave me the (evolutionary) party line about "we have brains and make decisions".

Would it help to redact our discussion to "Resolved: God created human brains."?

 

[BilliardsBall]

Interesting, let us accept your stance:

"God is the ultimate source of everything and the ultimate source of every evil."

We must therefore at the same time accept this one:

"God is the ultimate source of everything and the ultimate source of every good."

Praise Jesus for the good He's made!

Classic textbook counting the hit and ignoring the misses

You mean like only counting evil and not the good? I'm counting both. Which are you counting?

 

[SkepticThinker]

I guess we could move on to the conscience being god-given after you and I define terms. I asked if the conscience is a tool for human training and you gave me the (evolutionary) party line about "we have brains and make decisions".

Would it help to redact our discussion to "Resolved: God created human brains."?

I don't know what you mean by "the conscience is a tool for human training." Perhaps you could explain.

"Human beings can make decisions using the emotion, logic and reason our brains are capable of" is not an "evolutionary party line." It's how living creatures operate on a daily basis.

Maybe we could get to the part where you demonstrate that the human conscience is god-given already.

 

[McBell]

You mean like only counting evil and not the good? I'm counting both. Which are you counting?

Actually, no you are not.
You acknowledge both, yes.
But you ignore the evil for the good.

You are essentially saying that yes god is the source of all evil, but that is ok because he is also the source of all good.

That is classic counting the hits, ignoring the misses.

 

[McBell]

Maybe we could get to the part where you demonstrate that the human conscience is god-given already.

I sincerely hope you are not holding your breath...

 

[SkepticThinker]

I sincerely hope you are not holding your breath...

Oh man, I'd be long dead by now!

 

[Shadow Wolf]

That persons disbelieve in free will--even a majority of persons--does not discount it as true. All jurisprudence is based on people accepting free will responsibility.

The number of people who believe in something or not does not provide evidence or proof. Millions of children believe Santa Clause exists and is real, but he isn't. Lots of people believed Elvis died in manners that aren't how he actually died (with a good many believing he is still alive).

the persons who are exonerated of crimes because their free will was absent were under so much stress that they were functionally abnormally.

Exactly. This is but one instance where it becomes clear free will does not exist as we think it does. There are actually numerous psychology "games" where people are primed to give certain answers, and most people do give the expected/primed answers.

At all other times, people are expected to decide and choose.

Most people are never in a position that makes them have to accept free will just does not exist. At most, there is compatibilism, but even that is a very difficult case to make as it must clear the same obstacles that the concept of free will must, except compatibilism has the hurdles lowered significantly because it does acknowledge determinism, something that to a degree is demonstrably true (or else people couldn't be manipulated).

My hope for you is that you will embrace the free willed love of Jesus

Never, ever again will I be of Jesus' flock. The improvements to my life since I cut him out entirely have been too great to give it all up to go back to an empty life that was so bleak and dreary.
In all reality, it's like hoping I will embrace and get back with an abusive ex who has shown no indications that he has changed his ways or has any plans of doing so.

you wish to blame God for evil but not praise Him for good.

What good? We humans have made diseases like leprosy, polio, measles, and so many crippling and fatal diseases a thing of the past for so many people throughout the world. God did not do this, but rather it is written in his book that when someone is cured of leprosy that a ritual should be performed that pretty people at risk of catching diseases. We humans have been trying to address global hunger (with certain GMOs being a godsend for many people who would otherwise be going without food), whereas your god ordered his army of Israel to even destroy livestock and crop of those who sent the army after. We humans created global and instant communications. God? He didn't even give us telegraphy or pre-trained carrier pigeons.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You shifted the goalposts again.

No, I really didn't. If you don't understand that, go back and read our exchange again.

 

[blü 2]

BilliardsBall

"God is the ultimate source of everything and the ultimate source of every evil."

We must therefore at the same time accept this one:

"God is the ultimate source of everything and the ultimate source of every good."​

Quite right. Your own book tells you ─

Isaiah 45:7
7 I form the light and create darkness; I make peace and create evil; I the Lord do all these things.​

He also owns to straying from the truth ─

1 Kings 22
23 Now, therefore, behold, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the Lord has spoken evil concerning you."

2 Chronicles 18
22 Now therefore, behold, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of these your prophets; the Lord has spoken evil concerning you.

Jeremiah 4
10 ... "Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast utterly deceived this people and Jerusalem ..."

Jeremiah 20
7 O Lord, thou hast deceived me, / and I was deceived;

Ezekiel 14
9 And if the prophet be deceived and speak a word, I, the Lord, have deceived that prophet

2 Thessalonians 2
11 Therefore God sends upon them a strong delusion, to make them believe what is false.​

Of course, if you believe in an omnipotent monogod, there's no other possibility.
.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I don't know what you mean by "the conscience is a tool for human training." Perhaps you could explain.

"Human beings can make decisions using the emotion, logic and reason our brains are capable of" is not an "evolutionary party line." It's how living creatures operate on a daily basis.

Maybe we could get to the part where you demonstrate that the human conscience is god-given already.

Please tell me why I should prove Part 2 of an assertion when you don't understand Part 1.

Although I think it should be evident to you that your brain (conscience) has steered you lifelong in an attempt to have you avoid biblical sins and embrace biblical truths.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Actually, no you are not.
You acknowledge both, yes.
But you ignore the evil for the good.

You are essentially saying that yes god is the source of all evil, but that is ok because he is also the source of all good.

That is classic counting the hits, ignoring the misses.

I will acknowledge "all the evil" God creates as soon as you praise God for his goodness.

 

[BilliardsBall]

The number of people who believe in something or not does not provide evidence or proof. Millions of children believe Santa Clause exists and is real, but he isn't. Lots of people believed Elvis died in manners that aren't how he actually died (with a good many believing he is still alive).

Exactly. This is but one instance where it becomes clear free will does not exist as we think it does. There are actually numerous psychology "games" where people are primed to give certain answers, and most people do give the expected/primed answers.

Most people are never in a position that makes them have to accept free will just does not exist. At most, there is compatibilism, but even that is a very difficult case to make as it must clear the same obstacles that the concept of free will must, except compatibilism has the hurdles lowered significantly because it does acknowledge determinism, something that to a degree is demonstrably true (or else people couldn't be manipulated).

Never, ever again will I be of Jesus' flock. The improvements to my life since I cut him out entirely have been too great to give it all up to go back to an empty life that was so bleak and dreary.
In all reality, it's like hoping I will embrace and get back with an abusive ex who has shown no indications that he has changed his ways or has any plans of doing so.

What good? We humans have made diseases like leprosy, polio, measles, and so many crippling and fatal diseases a thing of the past for so many people throughout the world. God did not do this, but rather it is written in his book that when someone is cured of leprosy that a ritual should be performed that pretty people at risk of catching diseases. We humans have been trying to address global hunger (with certain GMOs being a godsend for many people who would otherwise be going without food), whereas your god ordered his army of Israel to even destroy livestock and crop of those who sent the army after. We humans created global and instant communications. God? He didn't even give us telegraphy or pre-trained carrier pigeons.

**

The number of people who believe in something or not does not provide evidence or proof. Millions of children believe Santa Clause exists and is real, but he isn't. Lots of people believed Elvis died in manners that aren't how he actually died (with a good many believing he is still alive).

I'm not making an ad populum appeal, this is a universal. There has never been ANY culture that exonerated moral crimes based on predeterminism or any lack of free will. Ever.

[*staff edit*]

 

[SkepticThinker]

Please tell me why I should prove Part 2 of an assertion when you don't understand Part 1.

You're the one making the assertion. I'm simply asking for you to back it up.

I asked you another question, for clarity, which you neglected to answer. It was: I don't know what you mean by "the conscience is a tool for human training." Perhaps you could explain.

Although I think it should be evident to you that your brain (conscience) has steered you lifelong in an attempt to have you avoid biblical sins and embrace biblical truths.

Pardon? You're just stating the same claim again.
How is this evident? What Biblical truths are you talking about? How can you demonstrate this?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

There has never been ANY culture that exonerated moral crimes based on predeterminism or any lack of free will. Ever.

So? That proves nothing. And even some of the most vocal proponents that there is no free will do not think crime and punishment should not be reduced to pardons and slaps on the wrist over it.
And, as I pointed out earlier, it is rare but there are times when crimes have been pardoned and charges dismissed and defendants found not guilty on those very grounds. As I mentioned it is rare, but it does happen. There has also been much pardoning of crimes so long as they are committed in the name of god. Such as carrying the banner of the Cross and fighting/dying a Crusader.

perhaps for the first and not the second time, if you follow what I'm saying?

If you follow what I'm saying, you are assuming things about me, you are judging me even though that is something only god is supposed to do, you are calling me a liar, and you continually go on about how I didn't actually have Jesus in my life, even though Jesus was all I had then. And do quit ignoring I haven't been bringing up my former church, but words directly from the Bible. It has some rather nasty, hurtful, hateful things to say about me, and I have the same about it. It left me emotionally damaged and scared, and there is no way for me to ever want to return to Christ without first throwing myself off the top of the highest building I can find.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I'm not making an ad populum appeal, this is a universal. There has never been ANY culture that exonerated moral crimes based on predeterminism or any lack of free will. Ever.

So... if we didn't have the ability to choose differently... they would have chosen differently?

I don't think you've thought your position through.

 

[BilliardsBall]

You're the one making the assertion. I'm simply asking for you to back it up.

I asked you another question, for clarity, which you neglected to answer. It was: I don't know what you mean by "the conscience is a tool for human training." Perhaps you could explain.

Pardon? You're just stating the same claim again.
How is this evident? What Biblical truths are you talking about? How can you demonstrate this?

The human brain has adaptive learning capabilities. The human conscience has adaptive moral learning capabilities. Biblically, when one rejects the promptings of God, the conscience may become dulled. A tender conscience leads to a "heart that is others-centered".

God allows persons with adult, fully formed consciences to decide on grey and black-and-white areas of morality for themselves. You will not be in Heaven or Hell curious as to how you arrived there.

My point is it should be self-evident that the naggings and promptings of our conscience add moral layers of absolutes atop our biological drives and urges.

 

[BilliardsBall]

So? That proves nothing. And even some of the most vocal proponents that there is no free will do not think crime and punishment should not be reduced to pardons and slaps on the wrist over it.
And, as I pointed out earlier, it is rare but there are times when crimes have been pardoned and charges dismissed and defendants found not guilty on those very grounds. As I mentioned it is rare, but it does happen. There has also been much pardoning of crimes so long as they are committed in the name of god. Such as carrying the banner of the Cross and fighting/dying a Crusader.

If you follow what I'm saying, you are assuming things about me, you are judging me even though that is something only god is supposed to do, you are calling me a liar, and you continually go on about how I didn't actually have Jesus in my life, even though Jesus was all I had then. And do quit ignoring I haven't been bringing up my former church, but words directly from the Bible. It has some rather nasty, hurtful, hateful things to say about me, and I have the same about it. It left me emotionally damaged and scared, and there is no way for me to ever want to return to Christ without first throwing myself off the top of the highest building I can find.

I'm not sure I understand you. The fact that belief in free will is universal across all cultures proves or implies nothing?

And yes, it is rare to pardon someone for being unable to use their free will. In all cases (another universal) it has first been proven that the person had impaired faculties. Do you follow?

Healthy person = free will person

Unhealthy person = lacking some element of free will and can blame mistakes or sins on another person

I'm in no way calling you a liar. You said you had a relationship with Jesus. This Jesus, you say, made you feel condemned and uncomfortable. I'm asking if you're sure it was the relationship with Jesus that caused the pain or the issues with parents and abusive church members who caused you pain?

 

[BilliardsBall]

So... if we didn't have the ability to choose differently... they would have chosen differently?

I don't think you've thought your position through.

Are you saying all persons are predisposed to believe in free will and are determined to do so?

That's an argument from silence (we must be predetermined to believe differently than reality) used to prove a negative (free will is nonexistent).