Six Questions about the Soul

[MikeF]

"Unlike almost every other religious faith or spiritual practice, in Buddhism, there is no concept of a "soul," eternal or otherwise."
- The Buddhist Concept of the Soul | Synonym

I read through your link. Thanks for that.

If the explanation given is an accurate description of Buddhist thought, it describes what seems to be a pattern of conscious energy (undefined) that maintains integrity and has the capacity to be reincarnated. I do not find this any less a concept of a 'soul' than any other.

I also have issue with the ocean and wave metaphor, for if all consciousness is one, and represented by the image of the ocean, and water molecules of the ocean represent conscious energy, and a wave represents a personality or self as a transitory forming of conscious energy, each iteration of a wave uses different water molecules and therefore, presumably each iteration of consciousness is reformed with different composite of conscious energy. What is the constant that can be reincarnated and attain enlightenment and maintain itself as a Bodhisattva?

I would argue that whatever that constant is, is what others might consider synonymous with their own concept of a soul.

 

[Fool]

1. What is a soul?

a soul is a person, a form with consciousness, a spirit, psyche.

2. Who (and/or what) has a soul?

personality, a corporal and earthly thing.

3. Why would a soul want a body?

to have an experience as a being in the face of adversity, in a sense a different kind of experience not necessarily under their conscious control.

4. What does a soul actually do?

growing, evolving, through consciousness and adaptation

5. If the soul is "immaterial", how does it communicate with the material brain?

very good question. without the physical antennae its only a mental thing that can't really sense physical things as distinct from self, or it's form vs some other form.

6. If you had no soul, how would you be different?

i wouldn't be a human, earthling.

 

[SalixIncendium]

1. What is a soul?

I don't know. I don't recognize a "soul". Possibly, people who speak of a soul are speaking of that being which experiences.

2. Who (and/or what) has a soul?

I don't know. Possibly those who experience.

3. Why would a soul want a body?

Using the context above, to experience life in that body, I'd imagine.

4. What does a soul actually do?

Play music, sing, and dance.

5. If the soul is "immaterial", how does it communicate with the material brain?

Music, apparently.

6. If you had no soul, how would you be different?

You would stick out like a sore thumb on the dance floor, and not in a good way.

 

[Fool]

"Unlike almost every other religious faith or spiritual practice, in Buddhism, there is no concept of a "soul," eternal or otherwise."
- The Buddhist Concept of the Soul | Synonym

that is because their is the collective consciousness; which pervades everything. the soul is only a microcosm of the macro and the illusion is created in the idea of forms being separate from other forms. so the sum is greater than the illusion of it's parts that appear to the senses as forms. plato called them shadows

 

[Windwalker]

"Unlike almost every other religious faith or spiritual practice, in Buddhism, there is no concept of a "soul," eternal or otherwise."
- The Buddhist Concept of the Soul | Synonym

Not exactly true. Tibetan Buddhism very clearly teaches something that one could in a sense call the 'soul', as that term is hardly one that is clearly defined anyway. But they do believe that 'something' continues beyond death: Death and Dying in the Tibetan Buddhist Tradition

The Buddhist view is that each living being has a continuity or stream of consciousness that moves from one life to the next. Each being has had countless previous lives and will continue to be reborn again and again without control unless he/she develops his/her mind to the point where, like the yogis mentioned above, he/she gains control over this process. When the stream of consciousness or mind moves from one life to the next it brings with it the karmic imprints or potentialities from previous lives. Karma literally means "action", and all of the actions of body, speech and mind leave an imprint on the mind-stream. These karmas can be negative, positive or neutral, depending on the action. They can ripen at any time in the future, whenever conditions are suitable. These karmic seeds or imprints are never lost.
....

The state of mind at the time of death is regarded as extremely important, because this plays a vital part in the situation one is reborn into. This is one reason why suicide is regarded in Buddhism as very unfortunate, because the state of mind of the person who commits suicide is usually depressed and negative and is likely to throw them into a lower rebirth. Also, it doesn't end the suffering, it just postpones it to another life.​

So what one means by the 'soul' you could say is that same thing that the Buddhist teaching of reincarnation points to. What is it that reincarnates? Ultimately, the goal is to stop this cycle and find liberation from it. But in the meantime, what is it that is unique to each person that gets recycled? Is it that conscious identification as a separate self? Isn't that what the "soul" is that is pointing to in other traditions?

 

[Secret Chief]

If the explanation given is an accurate description of Buddhist thought

I confess I did a quick google and chose that link as it contained the succinct quote that I used. As you are no doubt aware, there is quite a range of thought within the umbrella heading of Buddhism, and given it is a non-revealed religion, one creates one's own path to an extent. Given this, as someone who is probably best filed under secular zen there are parts of this article that I do not subscribe to. I certainly don't think it is helpful to conflate the terms reincarnation and rebirth.

it describes what seems to be a pattern of conscious energy (undefined) that maintains integrity and has the capacity to be reincarnated. I do not find this any less a concept of a 'soul' than any other.

I agree. I quite like the ocean and wave metaphor, but I do not go as far as to think there is anything with an abiding entity, whether "physical", "mental" or both.

 

[Secret Chief]

Not exactly true. Tibetan Buddhism very clearly teaches something that one could in a sense call the 'soul', as that term is hardly one that is clearly defined anyway. But they do believe that 'something' continues beyond death: Death and Dying in the Tibetan Buddhist Tradition

The Buddhist view is that each living being has a continuity or stream of consciousness that moves from one life to the next. Each being has had countless previous lives and will continue to be reborn again and again without control unless he/she develops his/her mind to the point where, like the yogis mentioned above, he/she gains control over this process. When the stream of consciousness or mind moves from one life to the next it brings with it the karmic imprints or potentialities from previous lives. Karma literally means "action", and all of the actions of body, speech and mind leave an imprint on the mind-stream. These karmas can be negative, positive or neutral, depending on the action. They can ripen at any time in the future, whenever conditions are suitable. These karmic seeds or imprints are never lost.
....

The state of mind at the time of death is regarded as extremely important, because this plays a vital part in the situation one is reborn into. This is one reason why suicide is regarded in Buddhism as very unfortunate, because the state of mind of the person who commits suicide is usually depressed and negative and is likely to throw them into a lower rebirth. Also, it doesn't end the suffering, it just postpones it to another life.​

So what one means by the 'soul' you could say is that same thing that the Buddhist teaching of reincarnation points to. What is it that reincarnates? Ultimately, the goal is to stop this cycle and find liberation from it. But in the meantime, what is it that is unique to each person that gets recycled? Is it that conscious identification as a separate self? Isn't that what the "soul" is that is pointing to in other traditions?

As I commented just in my response to @MikeF Buddhism has quite a range of beliefs and approaches. Vajrayana (inc. Tibetan) is the one that I least relate to. I find "self" to be a useful word in the mundane life but ultimately I consider it a useful illusion. For me (haha) I believe all dharmas (phenomena) arise, exist (manifest) and then extinguish. This happens eternally, moment by moment.

 

[George-ananda]

1. What is a soul?

A subtle body of subtle matter on a plane of nature beyond our familiar three dimensions.

2. Who (and/or what) has a soul?

All living/animate things have a soul. That's the difference between animate and inanimate.

3. Why would a soul want a body?

To develop itself through experiencing

4. What does a soul actually do?

Provides consciousness to animate creatures.

5. If the soul is "immaterial", how does it communicate with the material brain?

It is not 'immaterial' but of subtle matter on a higher plane. Through sympathetic vibrations there is downward causation from the mental body, through the astral, through the etheric body, to the physical brain. We can see physical brain activity but not its source in this view.

6. If you had no soul, how would you be different?

Without a soul and the other subtle bodies you are inanimate lifeless matter as in a corpse.

 

[loverofhumanity]

1. What is a soul?

2. Who (and/or what) has a soul?

3. Why would a soul want a body?

4. What does a soul actually do?

5. If the soul is "immaterial", how does it communicate with the material brain?

6. If you had no soul, how would you be different?

These are some of the official answers from Baha’i writings you might find interesting and worth exploring.

The Rational Soul | The Human Soul | The Life of the Spirit | What Bahá’ís Believe

 

[Nakosis]

1. What is a soul?

The unconscious part of your brain.

2. Who (and/or what) has a soul?

Anything which possesses some type of CNS

3. Why would a soul want a body?

Every thing that is alive comes with a soul.

4. What does a soul actually do?

Just about everything. The conscious self has a relatively minor role to play in life.

5. If the soul is "immaterial", how does it communicate with the material brain?

It is not immaterial. We, the conscious self cannot see/experience our brain as a object separate from ourselves so presume it has no physical properties.

6. If you had no soul, how would you be different?

Consciousness could not exist without the unconscious brain(soul).

Yes, I know the soul is supposed to be this immaterial consciousness that is somehow immortal but what we really experience and refer to is the unconscious brain which drives us drives us through emotions/feelings. The soul is a mythical narrative about the unconscious part of our brain.

 

[Viker]

1. What is a soul?

It is the persona, character and vitality of an individual.

2. Who (and/or what) has a soul?

All complex life forms.

3. Why would a soul want a body?

It has no choice. It's inherent from conception.

4. What does a soul actually do?

It gives us life force, personality, character.

5. If the soul is "immaterial", how does it communicate with the material brain?

I don't believe in "immaterial". This is a term given to things hidden or obscured. The soul being part of a body, it's easy to communicate with the rest of the body.

6. If you had no soul, how would you be different?

I would be a rock or random corpse laying around somewhere.

 

[Colt]

1. What is a soul?

2. Who (and/or what) has a soul?

3. Why would a soul want a body?

4. What does a soul actually do?

5. If the soul is "immaterial", how does it communicate with the material brain?

6. If you had no soul, how would you be different?

As I understand it:

* The soul is a spiritual counterpart that begins to grow as we do the will of the Father.

* Anyone who desires to be lead by God has a soul.

* The soul doesnt do anything other than represent our cooperation with the Father.

* The soul doesn't communicate, it's like icloud storage.

* If you have no soul then there is nothing about you to survive death.



From the Urantia Book:

1. Body. The material or physical organism of man. The living electrochemical mechanism of animal nature and origin.

2. Mind. The thinking, perceiving, and feeling mechanism of the human organism. The total conscious and unconscious experience. The intelligence associated with the emotional life reaching upward through worship and wisdom to the spirit level.

3. Spirit. The divine spirit that indwells the mind of man—the Thought Adjuster. This immortal spirit is prepersonal— not a personality, though destined to become a part of the personality of the surviving mortal creature.

4. Soul. The soul of man is an experiential acquirement. As a mortal creature chooses to "do the will of the Father in heaven," so the indwelling spirit becomes the father of a new reality in human experience. The mortal and material mind is the mother of this same emerging reality. The substance of this new reality is neither material nor spiritual—it is morontial. This is the emerging and immortal soul which is destined to survive mortal death and begin the Paradise ascension.

Personality. The personality of mortal man is neither body, mind, nor spirit; neither is it the soul. Personality is the one changeless reality in an otherwise ever-changing creature experience; and it unifies all other associated factors of individuality. The personality is the unique bestowal which the Universal Father makes upon the living and associated energies of matter, mind, and spirit, and which survives with the survival of the morontial soul.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

1. What is a soul?

I believe that a "soul" or more accurately a "living soul" is a physical creation that houses a spirit.

2. Who (and/or what) has a soul?

All matter has "intelligence" within in - but I believe a "living soul" is given only to those creations that can act for themselves.

3. Why would a soul want a body?

I believe that there is no "soul" without a physical body.

This is why Adam was described as a "living soul" the moment his spirit was placed into his physical body.

I believe that spirits want physical bodies in order to gain experiences of mortality and to progress closer to perfection and eternal joy.

4. What does a soul actually do?

Live.

5. If the soul is "immaterial", how does it communicate with the material brain?

I believe this is a question about the spirit rather than the "soul" and it is my understanding that the Light of Christ fills all things in the Universe.

It is this Light of Christ that gives the spirit connection to the physical body.

Spirits are not "immaterial" in the sense that they are made from nothing - but they are made from material that is purer in form and essence than the physical material.

6. If you had no soul, how would you be different?

The only beings on Earth that are not "living souls" are those spirits who rebelled against God and who were expelled from Heaven.

Lucifer/Satan/the devil is a spirit son of God - yet he and those who followed him (also spirit children of God) rejected the greater counsel given them by God and came to the Earth as mere spirits.

They are not "living souls" for their progress toward perfection and eternal joy have had an end - and they are "damned" as to all things righteous.

They will never acquire their own physical bodies - which is one reason why they will attempt to "possess" the bodies of the spiritually weak - those who invite these evil spirits into their lives - thus weakening the Light of Christ within them.

Every single human being who has ever lived, is living and will live are "living souls" and even after physical death - when they are separated from their mortal bodies - they are "living souls" for they will take up those bodies once again in a glorious Resurrection before their Final Judgment.

That is a promise given to all of Mankind by the Lord Jesus Christ - He has redeemed us from the effects of the Fall of Adam.

 

[blü 2]

1. A spirit, which is a non material being
2. Human beings, which are material bodies.
3. It's not up to a soul since God is the dealer of life
4. Al that I do, I'm the soul and I control myself.
5. I think therefore I am
6. I would be an animal driven by instincts.

Thanks for those.

1. My ongoing problem with immaterial beings is that by definition they're not found in nature (the world external to the self) so the only way in which they're known to exist is as concepts, things imagined, in individual brains.

2. But no other living things? We know from human DNA that in the past there was some interbreeding with Neanderthals ─ did they have souls? And with Denisovans ─ did they have souls?

As we look back down the evolutionary history of H sapiens, through the primates, the mammals, the reptilia, which of our ancestors was first to have a soul?

3. That takes us to 6 then.

4. In that case, what do you need a brain for? In terms of being metabolically demanding, the brain is simply on its own as bodily organs go, taking 20% or more of oxygen and nutrients and so on ─ but it's just for show, you say?

5. Your answer doesn't tell me how the immaterial can communicate with the material.

6. Are you not already an animal driven by instincts? When you were born, did you not instinctively take your first breath, instinctively move your newly-freed limbs, instinctively look specifically at human faces, instinctively begin to imitate sounds and start to acquire language? When you hit adolescence, did you not instinctively become interested in sexual matters? And so on?

Do we not find levels of morality in the social behavior of all gregarious mammals, without which they couldn't be gregarious?

 

[blü 2]

I don't know. I don't recognize a "soul". Possibly, people who speak of a soul are speaking of that being which experiences.



I don't know. Possibly those who experience.



Using the context above, to experience life in that body, I'd imagine.



Play music, sing, and dance.

Music, apparently.



You would stick out like a sore thumb on the dance floor, and not in a good way.

I greatly enjoy your wisdom on the matter ─ although birds in particular, but whales too, and doubtless more, are likewise into music, even though as I understand it not many people attribute souls to non-human critters.

 

[blü 2]

A subtle body of subtle matter on a plane of nature beyond our familiar three dimensions.All living/animate things have a soul. That's the difference between animate and inanimate.To develop itself through experiencingProvides consciousness to animate creatures.It is not 'immaterial' but of subtle matter on a higher plane. Through sympathetic vibrations there is downward causation from the mental body, through the astral, through the etheric body, to the physical brain. We can see physical brain activity but not its source in this view.Without a soul and the other subtle bodies you are inanimate lifeless matter as in a corpse.

A subtle body of subtle matter on a plane of nature beyond our familiar three dimensions.All living/animate things have a soul. That's the difference between animate and inanimate.To develop itself through experiencingProvides consciousness to animate creatures.It is not 'immaterial' but of subtle matter on a higher plane. Through sympathetic vibrations there is downward causation from the mental body, through the astral, through the etheric body, to the physical brain. We can see physical brain activity but not its source in this view.Without a soul and the other subtle bodies you are inanimate lifeless matter as in a corpse.

Thanks for your reply.

So if I understand you correctly, a soul is indeed a life-force ─ perhaps there are different kinds of soul for different kinds of being, from microorganisms to animals and plants &c in all their varieties.

But only in more complex creatures, you suggest, does it provide consciousness.

And you say that physics should extend beyond the detectable and include the mental body through the etheric body.

It would be fair to say, would it not, that physics would gladly do this if there were any indication in nature that an astral plane or etheric objects and entities existed otherwise than as concepts or things imagined in individual brains.

 

[blü 2]

These are some of the official answers from Baha’i writings you might find interesting and worth exploring.

The Rational Soul | The Human Soul | The Life of the Spirit | What Bahá’ís Believe

Thanks for those.

However, like many others, I find it difficult to debate with people who aren't here. (And I confess I find Baha'i scriptures remarkably prolix.)

So if you'd like to state in your own words what you consider are the salient points, we could perhaps take it further.

 

[blü 2]

The unconscious part of your brain.



Anything which possesses some type of CNS


Every thing that is alive comes with a soul.


Just about everything. The conscious self has a relatively minor role to play in life.


It is not immaterial. We, the conscious self cannot see/experience our brain as a object separate from ourselves so presume it has no physical properties.



Consciousness could not exist without the unconscious brain(soul).

Yes, I know the soul is supposed to be this immaterial consciousness that is somehow immortal but what we really experience and refer to is the unconscious brain which drives us drives us through emotions/feelings. The soul is a mythical narrative about the unconscious part of our brain.

Thanks for your reply.

[1] The unconscious part of your brain.

So a soul is a material phenomenon, more or less a synonym for 'mind', a collection of particular brain functions?

[2] Every thing that is alive comes with a soul.

So a soul is a synonym for being alive? Is some kind of extrinsic animating principle? Grateful if you could clear this up.

[4] [The soul does] Just about everything. The conscious self has a relatively minor role to play in life

I have no argument with the idea that the nonconscious mind does nearly all the work.

Thanks again.

.

 

[blü 2]

It is the persona, character and vitality of an individual.

All complex life forms.

It has no choice. It's inherent from conception.

It gives us life force, personality, character.

I don't believe in "immaterial". This is a term given to things hidden or obscured. The soul being part of a body, it's easy to communicate with the rest of the body.

I would be a rock or random corpse laying around somewhere.

So in short "to have a soul" is a synonym for "being alive"?

 

[PruePhillip]

1. What is a soul?

2. Who (and/or what) has a soul?

3. Why would a soul want a body?

4. What does a soul actually do?

5. If the soul is "immaterial", how does it communicate with the material brain?

6. If you had no soul, how would you be different?

From a Judaeo Christian perspective not much is known. The soul is scarcely defined in the bible.
What I gather is that humans are TWO people - that which is of the earth (made of the clay, dust
to dust, akin to the animals and came out of the sea) and secondly that which 'returns to God'
which is our 'self' or some entity which lives within a human body.