• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Show me proof

ManTimeForgot

Temporally Challenged
Go to a casino. & play the slot machines. To attract players it offers a jack pot prize say 100,000 dollars. If you are not the lucky you, it will take you several lifetimes or not at all to win that jackpot prize. & you still don`t believe that you won the jackpot prize of being born into this world? :)



There is a big difference between 1 person playing the slots and 1 million people playing the slots at the same time. To claim that the "lucky sperm" is equal to the lone slot player is disingenuous; it is much more appropriate to compare it to a million slot players playing at the same time. And if you look: the million people won't always have at least one winner, just like real life where pregnancy doesn't always happen, but most often you will get one winner and sometimes on rare occasions you will get two or more winners (vis-a-vis twins or triplets).

MTF
 

krsnaraja

Active Member
There is a big difference between 1 person playing the slots and 1 million people playing the slots at the same time. To claim that the "lucky sperm" is equal to the lone slot player is disingenuous; it is much more appropriate to compare it to a million slot players playing at the same time. And if you look: the million people won't always have at least one winner, just like real life where pregnancy doesn't always happen, but most often you will get one winner and sometimes on rare occasions you will get two or more winners (vis-a-vis twins or triplets).

MTF


Okay, I`ll simplify it. It`s like you winning the Lotto jackpot prize you were born into this world. Imagine inside you the number of E.coli bacteria awaiting incarnation into a human being. Each E.coli bacterium is a soul, isn`t it? That is if you believe the soul exists.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Okay. I will omit the prize. But can you show me proof God is always talking to us every other second of the minute, hour, day & for the rest of our lives?

who said he talks to us every minute of every day? i've never heard him speak even once :confused:
 

krsnaraja

Active Member
who said he talks to us every minute of every day? i've never heard him speak even once :confused:

God speaks to us through the beating of our hearts which if you use a stethoscope & hear for yourself the sound of your heart beats, it tells you to, " Lub..Gud..Lub..Gud,,Lub..Gud..Lub..Gud." If your heart beats is faster than 100/min, it means your very busy (with material sense enjoyment). If below 60/min, it means, you`re over doing it ( going to church everyday)
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
God speaks to us through the beating of our hearts which if you use a stethoscope & hear for yourself the sound of your heart beats, it tells you to, " Lub..Gud..Lub..Gud,,Lub..Gud..Lub..Gud." If your heart beats is faster than 100/min, it means your very busy (with material sense enjoyment). If below 60/min, it means, you`re over doing it ( going to church everyday)


Ahh i see :D
 

ManTimeForgot

Temporally Challenged
Okay, I`ll simplify it. It`s like you winning the Lotto jackpot prize you were born into this world. Imagine inside you the number of E.coli bacteria awaiting incarnation into a human being. Each E.coli bacterium is a soul, isn`t it? That is if you believe the soul exists.


I'm afraid that even when I assume souls exist I have no idea what you are trying to say. Should I simply accept that my being birthed was special because it was my being birthed? I am not that egotistical. I am not so special that the universe was waiting with baited breath for me to be realized; nor am I so hubristic as to believe that my birth holds some special meaning for the world around me.


I was born into the world. Extant fact. I was not, however, born with any special capabilities outside the human norm, nor was there anything about my birth as to make it seem irregular in any way. So what is it exactly about my birth that I should feel was in any way extraordinary?


Even if the soul itself is extraordinary in some way, it would still not change the extant fact that thousands upon thousands of people are being "ensouled" every day, and if something as simple as a bacterium has a soul, then its possible that the number of things being "ensouled" every day approaches a number so large that it would defy human comprehension (life is almost certainly all of the place in the universe; intelligent life maybe not, but simple celled stuff for sure). A few quintillion things per day may not look like much but that is such a large number that our brains positively balk at it its vastness.

MTF
 

krsnaraja

Active Member
I'm afraid that even when I assume souls exist I have no idea what you are trying to say. Should I simply accept that my being birthed was special because it was my being birthed? I am not that egotistical. I am not so special that the universe was waiting with baited breath for me to be realized; nor am I so hubristic as to believe that my birth holds some special meaning for the world around me.


I was born into the world. Extant fact. I was not, however, born with any special capabilities outside the human norm, nor was there anything about my birth as to make it seem irregular in any way. So what is it exactly about my birth that I should feel was in any way extraordinary?


Even if the soul itself is extraordinary in some way, it would still not change the extant fact that thousands upon thousands of people are being "ensouled" every day, and if something as simple as a bacterium has a soul, then its possible that the number of things being "ensouled" every day approaches a number so large that it would defy human comprehension (life is almost certainly all of the place in the universe; intelligent life maybe not, but simple celled stuff for sure). A few quintillion things per day may not look like much but that is such a large number that our brains positively balk at it its vastness.

MTF

Of course, you are special! Your parents would not have been born without you. Mary & Joseph would not have been born if were not for Jesus. Devaki & Vasudeva would not have been born if were not for Krishna, & so on & so forth.
 

PolyHedral

Superabacus Mystic
Okay, I`ll simplify it. It`s like you winning the Lotto jackpot prize you were born into this world. Imagine inside you the number of E.coli bacteria awaiting incarnation into a human being. Each E.coli bacterium is a soul, isn`t it? That is if you believe the soul exists.
The probability of my being born is 100%. After all, if I were not born, what would there be to consider the situation of having not being born?
 

ryanam

Member
The fact is that of course there's no proof. The reason the guy got so shirty earlier is because he knows there's no proof and is in fact so up there on his high horse that he doesn't believe anyone has the right to suggest that because there's no proof, it shouldn't be believed.

You have every right to ask the question and I truly wish more people would.

Creation -

Just because you can't see any physical way for something to be made from nothing, doesn't mean magic put it there. I'd rather come up with no solution at all than a bad one. Who is to say that in a few hundred/thousand years time, a method for the creation of solid matter from dark matter isn't isolated? I don't know. You don't know. Stop pretending you do.

Hope -

The planet and, indeed, the universe doesn't owe you a sense of hope. It could be that we live an entirely hopeless existence (I, as a matter of fact, don't think that's the case) but you can't say you believe in something because it gives you hope or any other emotion. You believe it because there is evidence proving it's existence.

Morality -

Anyone who believes that one has to believe in God because we have morals is under a misapprehension regarding the source of morals. It's a profound insult to us in our deepest nature and character. It is not the case that we do not set about butchering and raping and thieving from eachother right now only because we're afraid of a divine punishment or looking for a divine reward. It's an extraordinarily base and insulting thing to say to people.

On my mother's side, some of my ancestry is Jewish. I don't happen to believe the story of Moses in Egypt or the exile or of the wandering in the Sinai but now even Israeli archeology has shown that there isn't a word of truth to that story or any of the others, but take it to be true.

Am I expected to believe that my mother's ancestors got all the way to Mount Sinai (quite a trek), under the impression, until they got there, that rape, murder, perjury and theft were ok? Only to be told at the foot of Mount Sinai "Bad news... none of these things are kosher after all".

Nobody would have been able to GET as far as Mount Sinai, unless they had known that human solidarity demands that we look upon eachother as brothers and sisters and that we forbid activities such as murder, rape, theft... etc. This is innate in us. Those to whom it is not innate (the sociopaths who don't understand the needs of anyones but their own and the psychopaths who positively take pleasure in breaking these rules), all we can say is that, according to one theory, they're also made in the image of God. The likelihood is though that they can be explained by further research and scientific study.

I used the Jewish theme as a personal thing... feel free to use the relevant counterpart.

At no point here is God or religion a help where it claims to help most which is to our morality.
 

Tonymai

Lonesome Religionist
Show me proof God is talking to us every other second of the minute every hour every day the rest of our lives. & I`ll give you a prize.

You seek for proof of God is a proof God is talking to you; otherwise, you would not bother with religion.
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
OOH PRIZES!!! I LOVE PRIZES!!!

-Pretends to be a theist to have a chance to get prize-

The wind is God's voice!


NAO GIMME PWIZE
 

ManTimeForgot

Temporally Challenged
The probability of my being born is 100%. After all, if I were not born, what would there be to consider the situation of having not being born?

We are born to be free..Not chained (unborn).

[youtube]ISWOrI0WaLs[/youtube]
Matt Monro - Born Free - YouTube


Consideration of probabilities after the fact is actually a fallacy of probability. The chance of something happening when it has already happened does not make any sense nor does considering the mere fact that something does happen reveal any information about the way the world works.


Krsnaraja unless you can point out how my birth is objectively special in a probabilistic sense (and not mommy and daddy love me), then you must concede the point that I, nor anyone else, did not win any "jackpot" via being born.

MTF
 

krsnaraja

Active Member
Consideration of probabilities after the fact is actually a fallacy of probability. The chance of something happening when it has already happened does not make any sense nor does considering the mere fact that something does happen reveal any information about the way the world works.


Krsnaraja unless you can point out how my birth is objectively special in a probabilistic sense (and not mommy and daddy love me), then you must concede the point that I, nor anyone else, did not win any "jackpot" via being born.

MTF

Oh c`mon don`t be a sore loser, man. Cheer up!
 

ManTimeForgot

Temporally Challenged
I'm not being a sore loser. I don't actually have anything resembling an emotional investiture in this thread. I am trying to correct logical fallacies and application of cognitive biases that are common to religious debate (especially of this kind).


You can't prove something which is either beyond existence or doesn't exist is in contact with anything. And if you are asking for proof that someone is in contact with a "god," well then I have to say that asking for proof that someone is in contact with an ET is technically possible, but I don't see any particular religious impetus for doing so nor do I see how the metaphysical arguments made so far make ET contact more or less likely in any way.

MTF
 

krsnaraja

Active Member
I'm not being a sore loser. I don't actually have anything resembling an emotional investiture in this thread. I am trying to correct logical fallacies and application of cognitive biases that are common to religious debate (especially of this kind).


You can't prove something which is either beyond existence or doesn't exist is in contact with anything. And if you are asking for proof that someone is in contact with a "god," well then I have to say that asking for proof that someone is in contact with an ET is technically possible, but I don't see any particular religious impetus for doing so nor do I see how the metaphysical arguments made so far make ET contact more or less likely in any way.

MTF

It`s okay to agree to disagree. I wont mind. But correcting fallacies who you claim should be a crusade is okay, too. No problem. But wait till you get cancer then let me know if you still don`t believe in God.
 

veritatis cupitor

truth seeker
krsnaraja: This is something that no human could proof to you, if god doesn't prove it to you at a personal level then you have the right to remain doubtful. But if you keep searching you might find the answer within yourself.
 
Top