Shouldn't love and compassion be extended to all sentient beings...

[Secret Chief]

I agree. And if you use the above quote (blue part), you give a safe (I message) and strong message, without actively making them feel uncomfortable. I will remember your words for myself "I wish someone had made me aware of this, years ago".

Diet is always a tricky one to discuss, being loaded with emotions (mothers give sugar sweet if you behave sweet; hence sugar has become one of the biggest addictions, for some hard to get rid off). In Holland it seems that non-meat lifestyle gets promoted much more; there was an abrupt change, starting January first 2020. Suddenly from 1 day on the other the supermarkets tripled their vegetarian assortment AND they started labeling vegetarian foods, so as to make it easier to spot. So, awareness is increasing. But, as it took me many years, it probably will take 2 decades before we see some bigger changes.

Like you. IF I had know before about this, I would have been starting vegetarian life before. The good part is, that, now I am aware that I have killed animals too, I can't blame others for doing so. I ate meat till age 25. So, I say nothing to those below age 25, unless they beg me

I've eaten some gluten-free bread rolls recently. Very nice. Turns out they contain milk. The stuff's everywhere.

 

[stvdv]

The dairy industry is in no way "humane." In order to get the amounts of milk they desire from the cows, they impregnate them (obviously), and then steal away the calf almost immediately following birth. The calf, if it is female, awaits the same fate as the mother, and if it is male is likely destined to be raised in a cage within which it cannot move in order to be made into veal (which requires that the muscles be under-developed - hence the "no movement" caging) - because males of the dairy cow variety aren't "good" for much else by business standards. The milking cows themselves, within a factory-farming facility, are made to stand, side-by-side in extremely confining spaces, hooked up to machines that milk them dry without regard to any pain they may experience. Things like clots in their milk ducts, or how raw their teats are are very often ignored. Not to mention the workers' treatment of the livestock.

That is a good reminder why I better don't drink milk, eat cheese, etc.etc. Your words are almost as visible/good as videos I have seen

There have barely been any videos leaked/captured, because these places are very keen on the outside world not seeing into the methods they use, and in the few videos that have been captured, you can see workers getting agitated at cows who simply do not want to walk forward into the same exact uncomfortable situation they found themselves in yesterday. The cows are pushed, whipped, beaten, prodded, electrocuted - until they move because standing still is even worse than the torture they go through to be milked.

But the videos that are there to see, are so intense horrible, that instantly your appetite is gone for at least a day or to (if you are not desensitized)

Maybe one day Google will replace their corona-ad one day by one of the most cruel videos to spread awareness. That would increase vegetarianism very fast.

There is really no problem with eggs gathered by natural means on normal farms - the chicken was going to lay the unfertilized eggs anyway. However - in a factory farm setting, when they hatch a new group of chicks to become the next wave of egg-layers, they take all the males and destroy them. This has been witnessed to be done in a few different ways. Bagging them all up and discarding them as they suffocate to death and literally grinding them up in a machine grinder are two I can think of that I have seen. There are even reports that the ground baby chicks have then been used as feed for other animals - even the chickens themselves. Egg laying hens in factory farms aren't kept in the best conditions either. Cramped spaces, fecal matter everywhere, the tips of their beaks cut off or ground down so that they don't peck themselves or each other in the fits of insanity they are likely to go through.

And eggs are being used in much of the meals you can buy in supermarkets, and 99% (I guess), they will use factory eggs (and milk the same)

 

[stvdv]

I've eaten some gluten-free bread rolls recently. Very nice. Turns out they contain milk. The stuff's everywhere.

Yes, milk they put everywhere, except the plain grain kernels, fruits, vegetables and nuts/seeds/oils

My Master made a good remark on this, saying "I avoid milk products". And IF He says I avoid, He can make sure to not get a drop
But at the same time He also showed us, if accidentally you consume it, don't beat yourself up for it. You do your best, that's enough
Because if all are so much aware, and avoiding it so much, then these industries will be gone in a few days; it's all about awareness

I liked cheese. And I remember when I found out about animal rennet. Those days they only used rennet. Nowadays they use very often non-animal rennet. The past few years, supermarkets really changed a lot many cheeses contain bacterial rennet now. Still almost all the milk they use, is from factory milk, where cows have a horrible life. So, the more sensitive one becomes, the less desire to eat cheese.

 

[stvdv]

Also not everyone can go vegan. A lot of people with disabilities can't. Sometimes it's too expensive, some people are tube fed etc...

Very true. There is no "one path for all humans"

I have my challenges in life and others have theirs. I stick to mine, and then others can worry about theirs

To criticize someone else's habits makes no sense to me, when I think about it in below context:
Suppose a vegan raw food eater would criticize Stefan Hawkins for drinking non raw non vegan food, then he better first tries the lifestyle of him.

 

[Clara Tea]

Bovine (cows and bulls) are less than a year old when slaughtered for beef. It costs money to let them age.

They cry, like most mammals, when taken from their mothers.

Their mothers are forcibly raped (either by bulls or farmers) to stimulate milk.

Slaughter houses are brutal.

Yet, most religions don't think that God's laws extend to animals if those animals are to be used for food.

It is ironic that the gentle cow (only eats plants) is eaten by humans, while mean carnivores (lions, tigers, bears....oh my) are not often eaten.

Elephants and many other animals are now endangered (a lot of meat in starving nations, and tusks used for jewelry), while cows are not endangered because they are used for food.

It seems odd that hunting clubs take such great care of the environment, and game is plentiful there.

Hunting clubs have animals that have been shot at for decades....it must be very stressful.

It is ironic that more sharks are eaten by humans than humans is eaten by sharks.

I met a young lady who was trying to get donations to save cats. But cats are carnivores, and they eat cow meat (and other meat). Why does it make sense to kill a cow to feed a cat? Cats torture mice (they are mean).

It is cruel of God to allow a water buffalo to be chewed on while it is still alive by a lion. It is screaming in agony as it is being eaten alive.

Yet, I wonder if this is the least cruel of all systems? A rabbit sometimes has to run for its life, and at the end of its life (in the wild that is almost always by being eaten), it dies relatively quickly. The alternative is to have no predators for rabbits, and let them breed until they all compete for food and are all continuously in a state of starvation. Such starvation might, some day, end the existence of their entire species.

Should the eating of meat be by individual preference, or should a government (or religion) decree that meat should not be eaten?

Do plants feel pain (some studies show that plants react...but is it pain?)? Some trees do better if they are properly pruned, but does that pruning hurt?

When people walk, they inadvertently step on ants and other bugs, and even on microbes. Do their lives matter even if they are not very complex?

Should we feed colonies of bacteria?

 

[Trailblazer]

As long as people eat meat, they desensitize themselves, hence the vicious vicious circle continues.

But there is hope this will stop one day. I saw an article about lab-meat being produced. Will take decades because meat industry is huge

I saw that on a TV news program. It sounded really good. Aside from saving animals, it will change the use of land that is now used for grazing so it can be used for growing food, such that nobody in the world will ever go hungry again. I believe vegetarianism will became a reality someday because that is what my religion teaches:

The food of the future will be fruit and grains. The time will come when meat will no longer be eaten. Medical science is only in its infancy, yet it has shown that our natural food is that which grows out of the ground.
('Abdu'l-Baha, from Bahá'u'lláh and the New Era, page 102)

 

[blü 2]

Yesterday, as I was arriving from the market after buying a pair of slippers, I stopped at a scenic place full of greenery and with young buffalo calves tied to trees. As I was enjoying the scene I found that there was a slaughterhouse in a nearby building and the animals were actually meant for slaughter.

Having seen a few youtube videos recently on the brutality of animal slaughter in slaughterhouses, I sympathized with the young calves and felt sorry for them. One of the calves was bleating a lot repeatedly indicating stress, and I went forward to it hoping to comfort it a bit.

Interestingly, the calf, seeing me coming near, itself came near to me indicating interest in sociability and companionship.

I stroked his face lovingly for some time, at which he visibly relaxed. He poked his face at me for some more strokes which I obliged. The continuous bleating stopped, and he started eating the grass around staying next to me, peacefully.

While stroking, I was surprised to see a clear dark line of tear streams from his eyes to the lower part of his face. I wondered whether this was actually tears of emotion, or tears associated with eye infection or hormonal biochemical changes or something.

(Checking the internet today I found that there had been an instance of a calf visibly crying after its mother was knocked down dead by a truck while crossing a road.There were similar articles in this regard.

Buffalo calf cries after mother gets hit by car and lies dead on Romanian roadside )

Later reflecting on this experience, I remembered a orphaned girl I met a decade back, and whose head I stroked affectionately. She had similarly and very tangibly relaxed after a single friendly stroke on the head.

Imo, based on these experiences, children, whether human or animal, are quite sensitive and insecure when without their family, and suffer from high stress levels.

I think, in terms of animal rights, young calves should be exempt from slaughter at least till they had matured or grown up.

Returning back I was glad that I had turned to vegetarianism and was not contributing to animal slaughter in this regard.

My daughter is the one vegetarian in the tribe. She's pointed out some very good vegetarian restaurants, for which I'm grateful.

Unfortunately, a shop not too far from me makes the best pork sausages I can remember.

 

[sojourner]

Dying so that others can survive is part of the nature of things. What needs to change is the gluttony, excess, and greed that causes such industries to exist and to treat such large numbers of animals as merely commodity and not living beings.

 

[stvdv]

I saw that on a TV news program. It sounded really good. Aside from saving animals, it will change the use of land that is now used for grazing so it can be used for growing food, such that nobody in the world will ever go hungry again. I believe vegetarianism will became a reality someday because that is what my religion teaches:

The food of the future will be fruit and grains. The time will come when meat will no longer be eaten. Medical science is only in its infancy, yet it has shown that our natural food is that which grows out of the ground.
('Abdu'l-Baha, from Bahá'u'lláh and the New Era, page 102)

Nice to see that Bahai teaches this. So, I guess most Bahai are vegan right now?

Because we can create our own "future" right now and here. Why wait? Bahaullah has given the signal. When I hear such great revelation, I love to start at once, esp. because I know it takes year to get rid of old habits (addictions). So, if I don't start NOW, then it will never happen.

People wait because they are addicted I think. Sai Baba told me some time ago I should stop milk products, so gradually I reduced these over the years, and I am almost ready to start "Fruit and Grains", though for me fruit is problematic due to kidney problem. But I'll figure that one out soon
@stvdvRF

 

[Trailblazer]

Dying so that others can survive is part of the nature of things.

Maybe it has to be this way in the wild, but humans are not wild animals.

 

[Trailblazer]

Nice to see that Bahai teaches this. So, I guess most Bahai are vegan right now?

I wish I could say they were or that I am but such is not the case. It says "in the future" and we do not know how far off that will be. I feel bad for the meat I do eat but my life is such a challenge that I cannot deal with one more challenge, lest I die and be no more.

 

[ameyAtmA]

What happens to male calves in the dairy industry?

SOLUTION:
Next to everyone turning Vegan, we can adopt wisdom of the ancient agricultural societies:

The male calves are allowed to drink Mother cow's milk and play, then when they grow up, they are used for ploughing field, fertilizing it and manure, Ox-Power plant to generate energy for other industries, while the cows to give milk.
When they both grow old you just worry about the grass to feed them.

Go-raksha organizations do this as a symbiotic relationship between farmers, consumers, and dairy industry. for all to benefit. Governments may also help if they feel it is justified.

I know an organization that does this - Gorakshyam Trust in Tirunelleveli, Tamil Nadu, India .

 

[ameyAtmA]

Go-raksha (cow-protection) organizations do this as a symbiotic relationship between farmers, consumers, and dairy industry. for all to benefit. Governments may also help if they feel it is justified. .

They support and encourage poor dairy farmers by exchanging an old cow for a milk cow and educating the dairy farmers so they do not feel compelled to sell non-milk cows to butchers. The crop/veggie farmer families are also supported with education so they do not sell the bulls to slaughterhouses,

If the society as a whole reduces meat consumption of animals higher up in ecosystem hierarchy such as cows, buffaloes, there will be no demand for farmers to sell them to butchers/slaughterhouses

The animal breeding and farming for meat is increasing global warming in much larger proportion , the higher up in the ecosystem or food chain the animals belong, the larger the effect on global warming.

If societies cannot remove meat from diet, they can at least start slow by giving up red meat (bovine first if not all red meat)

 

[stvdv]

They support and encourage poor dairy farmers by exchanging an old cow for a milk cow and educating the dairy farmers so they do not feel compelled to sell non-milk cows to butchers. The crop/veggie farmer families are also supported with education so they do not sell the bulls to slaughterhouses,

That is a very nice solution. I have seen many cows in India giving the milk, and bulls used to transport stuff

Here in the West, at least in Holland, the bulls are not used to transport stuff anymore (used to be like that though), now they use tractors for example, so although the idea you mentioned won't work in Holland, and I think in many countries in the West it will be similar

To reduce violence in the West the only option seems to me to reduce the number of cows and bulls, and milk consumption

If societies cannot remove meat from diet, they can at least start slow by giving up red meat (bovine first if not all red meat)

Gradually change diet is usually the smart way to go. I tried abrupt and fell back, but gradually I got there. So, I would also advise others "go slow"

 

[stvdv]

I believe vegetarianism will became a reality someday because that is what my religion teaches:

The food of the future will be fruit and grains. The time will come when meat will no longer be eaten. Medical science is only in its infancy, yet it has shown that our natural food is that which grows out of the ground.
('Abdu'l-Baha, from Bahá'u'lláh and the New Era, page 102)

Nice to see that Bahai teaches this. So, I guess most Bahai are vegan right now?

It says "in the future" and we do not know how far off that will be.

My guess would be "when you are ready to stop eating meat and follow Bahaullah's advise about fruit and grain". Not all will be ready at the same time. I can imagine that might be the reason that Bahaullah left it open with "in the future". Otherwise people might feel guilty if they can't do it. Because we all know that food is one of the biggest addictions, because you got used to it from young age. For some people it might even kill them to shift to such a pure diet too abruptly, and for some, such a diet shift is plain wrong.

All people need to learn their own unique lessons. For some vegan diet, for others vegetarian, pescetarian, fruitarian or even breatharian diet
@stvdvRF

 

[ameyAtmA]

That is a very nice solution. I have seen many cows in India giving the milk, and bulls used to transport stuff

Here in the West, at least in Holland, the bulls are not used to transport stuff anymore (used to be like that though), now they use tractors for example

,
Not just transport, but plough the fields where crops are grown - wheat, rice, barley, corn, vegetables, lentils. legumes...
Also, Ox-Power plants are feasible -- the untapped Ox-Power,

Some may say this is very difficult without abusing the animals -- but you see, the idea is not to replace the tractor and machinery. It is to supplement , so 20% animal labour, 80% tractors

The goal is to prevent killing for food without incurring loss, not to profit or replace machinery

so although the idea you mentioned won't work in Holland, and I think in many countries in the West it will be similar

Why not? It will be difficult, but not impossible.
There are pocket farms all over, several in Europe, Americas, Australia-NZ, that are working hard to be self-sustaining. For some farms, motivation was smart advice from their Guru,
The common goal was to create sustainable farms and ecosystems/societies.

It is not easy. They sell farm produce, jams jellies peanut butter and milk products.

To reduce violence in the West the only option seems to me to reduce the number of cows and bulls, and milk consumption

I agree with this, but what can be defined as excess is relative.

The foods that are more of a social treat like ice-creams, shakes, cheese cake, cake frosting, and pizza toppings can be carefully replaced by plant-based alternatives.

However, the basic milk and curd in diets , especially of growing children, has to stay for its nutritional value.
It may not be right for all adults to be vegan either (I know you are not suggesting that).

Gradually change diet is usually the smart way to go. I tried abrupt and fell back, but gradually I got there. So, I would also advise others "go slow"

Yes.
In parallel , there has to be a boost in an agricultural mindset in areas of the world where the mindset is just not there. Growing food.

A Well-Fed World

Food behaviors have to change gradually.
Vegetables, fruit, grains ,legumes-lentils are not meant to just play the role of sides or the crunchy lettuce-tomato in your sandwich.

People wonder about cancer and declare God doesn't exist- but the direct correlation between red meat consumption and cancer is known for over a decade now, in the field of medicine.
Sensitive topic: pregnant mothers eating red meat, tuna, fish w/ mercury => childhood disease ?


-----
Apparently there are surprisingly many growing food in their backyards and sharing with neighbors
3 Startups Capitalizing on the Grow-Your-Own-Food Movement
Grow It Yourself (GIY) | The Organic Gardener
Vegetable Gardening in Georgia | UGA Cooperative Extension
Georgia Lawmakers Want People to Grow Their Own Food

Food banks don't have to be about meat either:
America's Largest Vegetarian Hunger Relief Program.

 

[stvdv]

Not just transport, but plough the fields where crops are grown - wheat, rice, barley, corn, vegetables, lentils. legumes...
Also, Ox-Power plants are feasible -- the untapped Ox-Power,

Some may say this is very difficult without abusing the animals -- but you see, the idea is not to replace the tractor and machinery. It is to supplement , so 20% animal labour, 80% tractors

The goal is to prevent killing for food without incurring loss, not to profit or replace machinery

Of course it is possible, and stop further industrialization. But in Holland they do the opposite, optimizing everything. Many farmers loose their jobs, because they can't make any profits anymore. Now with corona it's getting worse. And robots take over more and more jobs. It's cheaper to let a cow die naturally than using it in the production process I think

I fully agree with this line in bold

Why not? It will be difficult, but not impossible.
There are pocket farms all over, several in Europe, Americas, Australia-NZ, that are working hard to be self-sustaining. For some farms, motivation was smart advice from their Guru,
The common goal was to create sustainable farms and ecosystems/societies.

It is not easy. They sell farm produce, jams jellies peanut butter and milk products.

For other countries it might be possible. I can only speak for Holland. Here I see it not happen. It's more the opposite.

 

[ameyAtmA]

Slaughter houses are brutal.

Yet, most religions don't think that God's laws extend to animals if those animals are to be used for food.

It is ironic that the gentle cow (only eats plants) is eaten by humans, while mean carnivores (lions, tigers, bears....oh my) are not often eaten.

Elephants and many other animals are now endangered (a lot of meat in starving nations, and tusks used for jewelry), while cows are not endangered because they are used for food.

It seems odd that hunting clubs take such great care of the environment, and game is plentiful there.

Hunting clubs have animals that have been shot at for decades....it must be very stressful.

It is ironic that more sharks are eaten by humans than humans is eaten by sharks.

I met a young lady who was trying to get donations to save cats. But cats are carnivores, and they eat cow meat (and other meat). Why does it make sense to kill a cow to feed a cat? Cats torture mice (they are mean).

It is cruel of God to allow a water buffalo to be chewed on while it is still alive by a lion. It is screaming in agony as it is being eaten alive.

Yet, I wonder if this is the least cruel of all systems? A rabbit sometimes has to run for its life, and at the end of its life (in the wild that is almost always by being eaten), it dies relatively quickly. The alternative is to have no predators for rabbits, and let them breed until they all compete for food and are all continuously in a state of starvation. Such starvation might, some day, end the existence of their entire species.

Should the eating of meat be by individual preference, or should a government (or religion) decree that meat should not be eaten?

Do plants feel pain (some studies show that plants react...but is it pain?)? Some trees do better if they are properly pruned, but does that pruning hurt?

When people walk, they inadvertently step on ants and other bugs, and even on microbes. Do their lives matter even if they are not very complex?

Thank You for a thoughtful post.

1. We cannot control what happens in the jungle as it is part of nature and not our place to intervene.

2. We can try and be mindful of stepping on bugs, keeping a bug jar at home to throw the bug out in its environment, but can't control that fully, and pest control is necessary to prevent their growth

3. We can be innovative about cutting crops and fruit with least violence because we have to eat

4. However, slaughterhouses and hunting clubs are not part of nature and it is up to us to simply make them obsolete..
Especially for animals higher up in food chain and hierarchy like cattle.
The red-meat industry => straight contribution to global warming, cancer and heart disease

To answer your question - Although the eastern religions play a big role in this vegetarian thought,, it has to come from within for each individual. For that to happen, individuals, communities and societies have to collaborate and introduce the ideas to a busy world that has no time for lunch and does not stop to think what is in the plate.

Should we feed colonies of bacteria?

No

 

[ameyAtmA]

It's cheaper to let a cow die naturally than using it in the productions process I think

That is even better! For that we circle back to limiting and reducing the breeding drastically to just the basic milk for those who need it (i.e. use vegan milk products for ice cream and cheese cake)

 

[Thief]

We should hold empathy and compassion for any form of life that can experience pain, fear, and sorrow.

so....alll the way down the line.....
predator and prey......