Should white collar crime be punishable by death?

[Cacotopia]

I stated in another thread that white collar crimes, bank fraud, embezzlement, money laundering, cyber crimes, ponzi schemes, insider trading, etc etc are substantially worse in terms of the damage they cause to others. A murder charge is chump change in terms of its effect on other people.

I'm not trying to downplay how horrible murder is, I know how easily ya'll can get sidetracked on the little things. But murder doesn't really leave the same kind of crater that a white collar crime does. The convicted gets life or the death penalty, A murder affects immediate relatives. The Enron scandal for example cost nearly 30,000 people their jobs, and a large percentage of those people lost their life savings. Now Ken Lay did get 24 years in prison.

But take Al Dunlap of Sunbeam & Waste Management who cooked the books in every way imaginable to embezzle millions from shareholder's profits into his own accounts. He was charged in civil court and not criminal court for wire fraud and accounting fraud. He was sued for 15 million dollars, then filed for bankruptcy, was given a payout of 12.8 million and profitted about 100 million from the scandal, and received 3 years probation.

What happened to Sunbeam? their stock shares dropped from 57 to 7 dollars and the suffered a net loss of 3.8 billion dollars. 3 years probation for nearly tanking a national company? Where's the bullet for this guy's skull?

This happens regularly it seems, corporate scandals committed by overzealous executives who want another zero in their bank account and are willing to ruin the lives of 1000-10's of 1000's of lives to get it. They should be publicly drawn and quartered and the tattered remains of their corpses hung in on display to be fed on by carrion feeders.

 

[Duke_Leto]

Murder seems slightly overzealous retribution.

 

[Altfish]

I don't believe in the death penalty for any crime, it brings the State down to the level of the criminals BUT yes, 'white collar' crime should be heavily punished with long jail sentences.
The problem we have in the UK with such crimes is actually getting sufficient evidence and then finding a jury that has the time and the intellect to understand the evidence.

 

[Cacotopia]

Murder seems slightly overzealous retribution.

just a little, just a teeny tiny bit.

 

[Jumi]

If destroying lives by crime merits death penalty then many of them should get it, yes.

 

[HonestJoe]

I stated in another thread that white collar crimes, bank fraud, embezzlement, money laundering, cyber crimes, ponzi schemes, insider trading, etc etc are substantially worse in terms of the damage they cause to others. A murder charge is chump change in terms of its effect on other people.

I think it’s much more complex than that. “White collar crimes” covers a vast range in both type and scale, technically anything from taking some small change from the petty cash tin through to long term corporate fraud for millions. You could also argue that scamming a pensioner out of their few dollars of savings is a more heinous offence than scamming a billion dollar company for a few hundred thousand.

There’s also a question of intent; a lot of white collar crime isn’t trying to bring down businesses, often the complete opposite and there will often be no intention to cause harm to other individuals or even any actual direct harm until the scheme is discovered or collapses. And you’ll often have lots of individuals playing relatively minor roles in white collar crime, compared to typically one or two people being directly involved in a murder.

I’ve not even conceived murder is a good choice as a basis for judging the seriousness of crimes. Murder is typically comes out of very complex social and emotional circumstances, with all sorts of questions about mental states, influences and mitigations. In a lot of cases, it could be said that raw punishment is somewhat meaningless in context and deterrent effects are minimal. Corporate crimes are really an entirely different concept and not really comparable in any way shape or form. Fraud is rarely a crime of passion.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

I generally oppose the death penalty for a number of reasons. Personally, I'd just be happy seeing white collar criminals prosecuted in the first place, for starters.

 

[PureX]

Here in America we have a culture that legitimizes greed. So as long as one steals a lot of money, instead of just a little, we tend not to see it as the harmful crime that it really is. Just having a big pile of money in America buys a lot of forgiveness.

 

[Stevicus]

I stated in another thread that white collar crimes, bank fraud, embezzlement, money laundering, cyber crimes, ponzi schemes, insider trading, etc etc are substantially worse in terms of the damage they cause to others. A murder charge is chump change in terms of its effect on other people.

I'm not trying to downplay how horrible murder is, I know how easily ya'll can get sidetracked on the little things. But murder doesn't really leave the same kind of crater that a white collar crime does. The convicted gets life or the death penalty, A murder affects immediate relatives. The Enron scandal for example cost nearly 30,000 people their jobs, and a large percentage of those people lost their life savings. Now Ken Lay did get 24 years in prison.

But take Al Dunlap of Sunbeam & Waste Management who cooked the books in every way imaginable to embezzle millions from shareholder's profits into his own accounts. He was charged in civil court and not criminal court for wire fraud and accounting fraud. He was sued for 15 million dollars, then filed for bankruptcy, was given a payout of 12.8 million and profitted about 100 million from the scandal, and received 3 years probation.

What happened to Sunbeam? their stock shares dropped from 57 to 7 dollars and the suffered a net loss of 3.8 billion dollars. 3 years probation for nearly tanking a national company? Where's the bullet for this guy's skull?

This happens regularly it seems, corporate scandals committed by overzealous executives who want another zero in their bank account and are willing to ruin the lives of 1000-10's of 1000's of lives to get it. They should be publicly drawn and quartered and the tattered remains of their corpses hung in on display to be fed on by carrion feeders.

What I never could understand is the wanton greed behind many of these acts. Here we have CEOs and other executives who are quite well off, earning huge salaries - yet that's somehow not enough for them. They want more.

This is why I tend to reject most of the explanations and justifications for capitalism, since they generally involve vague platitudes and specious arguments about "market forces" and "the economy" - as if it's all some nebulous, abstract entity that no humans have any control or influence over.

But the fact is, these are actual humans making active choices to ruin other people's lives - all for the sake of money, which they already have plenty of.

In many ways, they're morally worse than terrorists, since at least terrorists have some sort of perceived higher level "cause" they're fighting for. Terrorists don't do what they do for money, and that makes all the difference in the world.

 

[PureX]

What I never could understand is the wanton greed behind many of these acts. Here we have CEOs and other executives who are quite well off, earning huge salaries - yet that's somehow not enough for them. They want more.

The reason is that as a nation we believe in socio-economic Darwinism; wherein money equals value, and so worthiness is proved by possession. If a man or woman is clever enough to gain massive wealth (by whatever means), they are presumed to be deserving of it. And worse, still, they are presumed to be worthy of the control it gives them over the well-being of others. We have tied wealth to power at a most profound cultural level, and deemed it self-justifying. So is it really any wonder that these people view the acquisition of wealth and power, and their ability to wield it with impunity over others, as their right? Even as their obligation?

This is why I tend to reject most of the explanations and justifications for capitalism, since they generally involve vague platitudes and specious arguments about "market forces" and "the economy" - as if it's all some nebulous, abstract entity that no humans have any control or influence over.

Capitalism is nothing more than systematized greed. But of course this cannot be acknowledged by those who "believe in" it, or they would be acknowledging that they support and promote greed as a worthy motive for social interaction and decision-making.

But the fact is, these are actual humans making active choices to ruin other people's lives - all for the sake of money, which they already have plenty of.

It's survival of the "fittest", baby! And in a culture controled by commerce, the "fittest" are the richest.

In many ways, they're morally worse than terrorists, since at least terrorists have some sort of perceived higher level "cause" they're fighting for. Terrorists don't do what they do for money, and that makes all the difference in the world.

Terrorism isn't really defined by motive, but by effect. So, yes, they are certainly terrifying.

 

[metis]

I'm opposed to the death penalty, although there's some executions that don't bring any tears to my eyes.

 

[pearl]

The former coal CEO of Upper Big Branch Mine, W Virginia, received only a year in prison for his responsibility in the death of 29 coal miners. I think this crime ought to have been at least 2nd degree murder!
The Hedge fund players and the housing crisis that hit the economy with hundreds of job losses wound up receiving large bonuses, etc., etc.

 

[Revoltingest]

I stated in another thread that white collar crimes, bank fraud, embezzlement, money laundering, cyber crimes, ponzi schemes, insider trading, etc etc are substantially worse in terms of the damage they cause to others. A murder charge is chump change in terms of its effect on other people.

I'm not trying to downplay how horrible murder is, I know how easily ya'll can get sidetracked on the little things. But murder doesn't really leave the same kind of crater that a white collar crime does. The convicted gets life or the death penalty, A murder affects immediate relatives. The Enron scandal for example cost nearly 30,000 people their jobs, and a large percentage of those people lost their life savings. Now Ken Lay did get 24 years in prison.

But take Al Dunlap of Sunbeam & Waste Management who cooked the books in every way imaginable to embezzle millions from shareholder's profits into his own accounts. He was charged in civil court and not criminal court for wire fraud and accounting fraud. He was sued for 15 million dollars, then filed for bankruptcy, was given a payout of 12.8 million and profitted about 100 million from the scandal, and received 3 years probation.

What happened to Sunbeam? their stock shares dropped from 57 to 7 dollars and the suffered a net loss of 3.8 billion dollars. 3 years probation for nearly tanking a national company? Where's the bullet for this guy's skull?

This happens regularly it seems, corporate scandals committed by overzealous executives who want another zero in their bank account and are willing to ruin the lives of 1000-10's of 1000's of lives to get it. They should be publicly drawn and quartered and the tattered remains of their corpses hung in on display to be fed on by carrion feeders.

Let's add tailgaters, speeders & drunk drivers to the death penalty list.
These people cause much highway carnage.
Oh, & tenants who skip out owing rent.

 

[Valjean]

Death for anti-socialism may be psychically satisfying for those harmed, but might not enslavement be a more productive penalty? Retributive plus restorative justice?

 

[Nakosis]

I stated in another thread that white collar crimes, bank fraud, embezzlement, money laundering, cyber crimes, ponzi schemes, insider trading, etc etc are substantially worse in terms of the damage they cause to others. A murder charge is chump change in terms of its effect on other people.

I'm not trying to downplay how horrible murder is, I know how easily ya'll can get sidetracked on the little things. But murder doesn't really leave the same kind of crater that a white collar crime does. The convicted gets life or the death penalty, A murder affects immediate relatives. The Enron scandal for example cost nearly 30,000 people their jobs, and a large percentage of those people lost their life savings. Now Ken Lay did get 24 years in prison.

But take Al Dunlap of Sunbeam & Waste Management who cooked the books in every way imaginable to embezzle millions from shareholder's profits into his own accounts. He was charged in civil court and not criminal court for wire fraud and accounting fraud. He was sued for 15 million dollars, then filed for bankruptcy, was given a payout of 12.8 million and profitted about 100 million from the scandal, and received 3 years probation.

What happened to Sunbeam? their stock shares dropped from 57 to 7 dollars and the suffered a net loss of 3.8 billion dollars. 3 years probation for nearly tanking a national company? Where's the bullet for this guy's skull?

This happens regularly it seems, corporate scandals committed by overzealous executives who want another zero in their bank account and are willing to ruin the lives of 1000-10's of 1000's of lives to get it. They should be publicly drawn and quartered and the tattered remains of their corpses hung in on display to be fed on by carrion feeders.

In most cases the Judge decides the punishment. Judges are human and have biases and prejudices. The problem is not the system, the problem is the people in the system. Where one judge may understand the impact of white collar crime, another may see it as only the company involved was hurt.

I'm waiting to see what is decided in the Manafort case.

 

[Cacotopia]

Let's add tailgaters, speeders & drunk drivers to the death penalty list.
These people cause much highway carnage.
Oh, & tenants who skip out owing rent.

For good measure when there is a long line at a sandwich making place,, people that have been waiting in line for 10 minutes and still don't know what they want on their sandwich when the get up to the counter to order, those people need to die.

 

[Revoltingest]

For good measure when there is a long line at a sandwich making place,, people that have been waiting in line for 10 minutes and still don't know what they want on their sandwich when the get up to the counter to order, those people need to die.

That's too harsh.
The diner's maitre d' should say.....
"No sammich for you."
"Come back....1 year!"

 

[Cacotopia]

There should be sammich nazis.

 

[Shaul]

No there shouldn’t be the death penalty for white collar criminals nor is that needed to punish them severely. Instead let’s do this: legal dissolution of any corporate entity that employed the criminals and hold the criminals and the officers of the corporations personally financially responsible. If an entity knows that it can be dissolved (the corporate equivalent of execution) it will be careful not to let it happen. If the individuals know their personal wealth can be taken due to mischief by them or associates they will not risk doing wrong.

 

[Cacotopia]

No there shouldn’t be the death penalty for white collar criminals nor is that needed to punish them severely. Instead let’s do this: legal dissolution of any corporate entity that employed the criminals and hold the criminals and the officers of the corporations personally financially responsible. If an entity knows that it can be dissolved (the corporate equivalent of execution) it will be careful not to let it happen. If the individuals know their personal wealth can be taken due to mischief by them or associates they will not risk doing wrong.

So every one not in on the scheme working for that company needs to suffer too?

Sounds like a great plan, since some of these companies are forced into liquidation after some of the bigger scandals. I doubt any one personal entity has the financial wealth accrued to support such a cost, short of a small handful of people.