Should The State Recognise Gender

[Kirran]

Generally, the state recognises people as Male or Female, or as men or women. It's on birth certificates, passports, all this kind of thing.

There's been progress in cases where people assigned female at birth have been granted the right to have their true gender as male recognised on government documents, or vice versa. In some countries this is becoming standard practice, although there are still often problems and restrictions.

Some jurisdictions have also (or alternatively) begun to legally recognise third genders, or people being of nonbinary gender more broadly.

This is something that's going to become a more prominent issue as time goes on.

What I wonder is, why do we need the state to recognise our gender at all? Rather than go through the complexity of changing one's official gender identity as you develop, of recognising more and more genders, however things turn out, wouldn't it be much easier to simply not recognise gender at all in identification and other documentation? Am I missing some reason why this is useful?

In practice, it's likely that we'll go down the complex route, because it can be reached by incremental change, but theoretically speaking...

 

[lovesong]

I imagine if the SJWs win this whole thing then it'll become like religion where it's illegal to use as an identifying point, but unlike religion in that you're obligated to ask everyone you meet what their pronouns are. Sex is just another identifyer, like height or eye color or ethnicity, it helps when trying to find a person or check an ID. I think it should be easier for trans people to get it changed, but I can see how still having it is useful. As far as the whole "non binary" thing goes... that's another topic.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I think sexual identification is necessary for some government, some doctors and some other functions but certainly not for a mall rebate application. And gender identifiers not at all.

 

[Kirran]

I think sexual identification is necessary for some government, some doctors and some other functions but certainly not for a mall rebate application. And gender identifiers not at all.

True, I can see the value in including biological sex for medical purposes. Although I think we might be able to get rid of some baggage by just having it reported as 'XY - standard', 'XY - androgen deficiency', 'XX', 'X', 'XXY' etc. That's really getting down to the biology.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I imagine if the SJWs win this whole thing then it'll become like religion where it's illegal to use as an identifying point, but unlike religion that you're obligated to ask everyone you meet what their pronouns are. Sex is just another identifyer, like height or eye color or ethnicity, it helps when trying to find a person or check an ID. I think it should be easier for trans people to get it changed, but I can see how still having it is useful. As far as the whole "non binary" thing goes... that's another topic.

How exactly is it useful? And why are you using "SJW" as a snarl word? Are you right-wing now? Lol.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I'm not sure. It may be useful for statistical purposes but that's about it.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

True, I can see the value in including biological sex for medical purposes. Although I think we might be able to get rid of some baggage by just having it reported as 'XY - standard', 'XY - androgen deficiency', 'XX', 'X', 'XXY' etc. That's really getting down to the biology.

Or just 'gonadal sex' since that's usually more relevant for identification and treatment.
Just as soon as the adult children stop snickering at the word 'gonadal' anyway.

 

[Kirran]

I'm not sure sex is a good identifier, like height and eye colour. What does a 'female' look like? Many transmen are female biologically, but that wouldn't help you identify them. It would throw you off, even.

Also, r.e. pronouns, I feel like neutral pronouns will eventually become the default.

 

[Revoltingest]

Eventually, it will be as in the movie, Gattaca.
Our genome will be our identity.
Whatever complexities we have, they'll all be in the code.
Instead of presenting our papers, we'll just swab a cheek.
Oh, boy....I can't wait.

 

[EmperorSwordMan]

If you're born male, you're male, if you're born female, you're female. I don't know why that's so hard for people. :/

 

[Kirran]

Maybe the Rainbow Room would have been a better place for this

If you're born male, you're male, if you're born female, you're female. I don't know why that's so hard for people. :/

I think primarily because it is often not true. Biological sex is one thing, gender is another.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

If you're born male, you're male, if you're born female, you're female. I don't know why that's so hard for people. :/

Because that's just not reality for everyone, and science knows that.

 

[EmperorSwordMan]

Maybe the Rainbow Room would have been a better place for this



I think primarily because it is often not true. Biological sex is one thing, gender is another.

Gender is the same thing as Biological sex, and even if that wasn't true that would mean gender doesn't mater and it's really biological sex that counts, don't matter what you "identify" with.

Because that's just not reality for everyone, and science knows that.

It is. According the simple biology, males are born with male genitalia, same as females. Aka even scientists are saying it.

 

[Kirran]

Gender is the same thing as Biological sex, and even if that wasn't true that would mean gender doesn't mater and it's really biological sex that counts, don't matter what you "identify" with.

I haven't seen any scientific findings which support the idea that gender and biological sex are the same thing. Quite the opposite.

As for that meaning gender doesn't matter, not at all. It means they are just different things, with importance in different realms.

 

[EmperorSwordMan]

I haven't seen any scientific findings which support the idea that gender and biological sex are the same thing. Quite the opposite.

As for that meaning gender doesn't matter, not at all. It means they are just different things, with importance in different realms.

A person can "identify" with whatever that person wants, I personally identify as a attack helicopter, and that person can be whatever in another realm. However here what really matters is what you were born as, male or female. If gender wasn't that and included whatever those weird tumblr freaks say then that would mean there's no point in even having the word gender in the English language.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

It is. According the simple biology, males are born with male genitalia, same as females. Aka even scientists are saying it.

No, it isn't. I have a vagina but I'm a male. Science knows that sex and gender isn't black and white. Well, at least the scientists and doctors who actually follow the evidence know that.

 

[Kirran]

A person can "identify" with whatever that person wants, I personally identify as a attack helicopter, and that person can be whatever in another realm. However here what really matters is what you were born as, male or female. If gender wasn't that and included whatever those weird tumblr freaks say then that would mean there's no point in even having the word gender in the English language.

Ah, an old and well-established strawman. I like a traditionalist.

What do you mean by 'matters'? Matters in what sense, and to who, and in what context?

 

[EmperorSwordMan]

Ah, an old and well-established strawman. I like a traditionalist.

What do you mean by 'matters'? Matters in what sense, and to who, and in what context?

My believes are a combination of left and right ideals, mainly right, so I don't know what you mean by "well established strawman". To answer your question it matters to pretty much everyone, as the definition means the term used for the state of being male and female in a social and cultural sense, and sense we're all one of the two it would apply to all of us. Not that important though, as we agreed biological sex meant more.

 

[Kirran]

My believes are a combination of left and right ideals, mainly right, so I don't know what you mean by "well established strawman". To answer your question it matters to pretty much everyone, as the definition means the term used for the state of being male and female in a social and cultural sense, and sense we're all one of the two it would apply to all of us. Not that important though, as we agreed biological sex meant more.

I mean the attack helicopter strawman. That exact wording is a classic argument. It has always struck me as odd, because if someone identifies as X gender and expresses themselves as such, then that's a lived personal and social reality.

Biological sex doesn't relate to the cultural and social sense, that would be gender.

We're not all one of the two biologically, no, there are intersex people who are biologically such that they be accurately categorised as neither male nor female.

 

[EmperorSwordMan]

I mean the attack helicopter strawman. That exact wording is a classic argument. It has always struck me as odd, because if someone identifies as X gender and expresses themselves as such, then that's a lived personal and social reality.

Biological sex doesn't relate to the cultural and social sense, that would be gender.

We're not all one of the two biologically, no, there are intersex people who are biologically such that they be accurately categorised as neither male nor female.

The attack helicopter statement is a little joke, it references how people say they're genderqueer and so forth, and made by meme lovers and right wing people like louder with crowder and milo.

Also there's a good term for those, they're called hermaphrodites. Also it's not it's own biological sex, is a birth defect. I know cultural and social is not the same as biological, but almost all people who are born don't mind being called by their biological gender. It's also proven that being trangender is a brain dysfunction, one study shown here. Johns Hopkins Psychiatrist: Transgender is ‘Mental Disorder;' Sex Change ‘Biologically Impossible’