Should Muslims acknowledge the Jews sovereignty over Israel?

[Moishe3rd]

I don't prefer it either.


I don't prefer it either.

It's like saying to Congoleses for ex (as they are in war since many years now) : do you prefer when belgians were controling your richesses and exploited you or do you prefer to kill each others ?



I don't think so. What a strange way of thinking

In what way do I have a strange way of thinking?

 

[Pastek]

In what way do I have a strange way of thinking?

In saying that we don't have other choice than colons or dictators/extremists.

And by thinking that because people are acting bad it erase the bad things that others did.

Do you think that because of what some israelis do/did to palestians we can say that it erase then what the germans done to you ?

That what you imply for us, but will you accept it for you ? I don't think so.

 

[Moishe3rd]

In saying that we don't have other choice than colons or dictators/extremists.

It's not that you don't have any choices; it's that you have chosen only dictator/extremists. I would suggest you choose something else. But, that hasn't happened yet.

And by thinking that because people are acting bad it erase the bad things that others did.

Nope. Didn't imply that; and I didn't write that.
That is your equivalency argument, not mine.

Do you think that because of what some israelis do/did to palestians we can say that it erase then what the germans done to you ?

Nope. And I don't think that because of what some Arabs do or did to the Arabs called Palestinians that we can say that it erases what the Arabs called Palestinians do to each other either.
Again, your equivalency arguments are nonsensical.

That what you imply for us, but will you accept it for you ? I don't think so.

Nope.
Not even close in terms of implications.
What I do most definitely imply is that you should stop slaughtering each other and adopt different models of behavior.
Choose life.

 

[Caladan]

Can't we just agree that we are all crazy, passionate, fighting-loving berserkers who would do battle until our dying breath in order to redeem our side and just get along?

 

[Pastek]

It's not that you don't have any choices; it's that you have chosen only dictator/extremists. I would suggest you choose something else. But, that hasn't happened yet.

It was most of time a sham of vote.
You really think that people voted for the same person each time ?
In which planet are you living ?

 

[Shermana]

Can't we just agree that we are all crazy, passionate, fighting-loving berserkers who would do battle until our dying breath in order to redeem our side and just get along?

We've already agreed on that, which is exactly why we CANNOT just get along.

 

[Moishe3rd]

It was most of time a sham of vote.
You really think that people voted for the same person each time ?
In which planet are you living ?

It would appear to be yours when you claim: "In saying that we don't have other choice than colons or dictators/extremists."
No. I did not say you had no other choice. You did.
So, if you did not mean that, then what do you mean?
Are you claiming to have no choice at all? No free will?
In which planet are you living?

You are taking umbrage with my statement that you are slaughtering each other in large numbers.
What is your alternative? What choices are you making?
Explain why you would be offended at the very real problems that the Arab world has been dealing with for over 100 years, which is specifically self slaughter; self immolation; and self destruction.
Do you have a choice?
If so, what do you choose?

 

[gilligan8914]

Back to the original OP. It is not a scriptural matter at all. Israel will soon settle in all of the occupied areas. The people who now live in those areas have no choice but to stay and be stateless non-citizens or leave. This has been happening since the areas were aquired and will not end until the larger state of Israel is created. Jimmy Carter can tell you all about it (in his book). Its only 10-20 years away. It doesn't matter what any muslims acknowlege.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

A) One big giant Job-ian theology that has nothing to do with Deuteronomy 28 where God arbitrarily causes the Jews to suffer, as they are completely innocent, just to test everyone's faith.

B) No different than any other situation in history in the Tanakh where it explicitly says that they are punished severely as such.

C) God just doesn't care or can't do anything about it.

I would argue that the current relationship Israel has with God resembles option "C" more than anything else. In biblical times when God punished the nation he made it clear why he was doing what he was doing. He spoke to them through prophets. He was very much a personal God to them, even in times of discipline. To say "God doesn't care" would be unbiblical no matter how you slice it. That leaves the second part "he can't do anything about it."

 

[Shermana]

I would argue that the current relationship Israel has with God resembles option "C" more than anything else. In biblical times when God punished the nation he made it clear why he was doing what he was doing. He spoke to them through prophets. He was very much a personal God to them, even in times of discipline. To say "God doesn't care" would be unbiblical no matter how you slice it. That leaves the second part "he can't do anything about it."

There are many places where Israel suffers and there is no mention of a prophet. In fact it says there will be times where no prophet is given.

You think "He can't do anything about it" is NOT unbiblical?

 

[-Peacemaker-]

There are many places where Israel suffers and there is no mention of a prophet. In fact it says there will be times where no prophet is given.

You think "He can't do anything about it" is NOT unbiblical?

It's been millenia since he's spoken through a strictly Jewish prophet, at the very least 2000+ years. It certainly appears that he was withdrawn himself from the nation of Israel which absolutely would mean that he can't do anything about.

 

[Shermana]

It's been millenia since he's spoken through a strictly Jewish prophet, at the very least 2000+ years. It certainly appears that he was withdrawn himself from the nation of Israel which absolutely would mean that he can't do anything about.

I'm really at a loss at where you draw the conclusion that he can't do anything about the situation even if there's no walking prophet among them.

Do you realize that by your logic, God can't do ANYTHING anymore? Or that he had no power over the gentiles ever except when they had a prophet? That kind of is directly contradicted biblically. You have some strange Cosmology.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

I'm really at a loss at where you draw the conclusion that he can't do anything about the situation even if there's no walking prophet among them.

Do you realize that by your logic, God can't do ANYTHING anymore? Or that he had no power over the gentiles ever except when they had a prophet? That kind of is directly contradicted biblically. You have some strange Cosmology.

I'm talking specifically about the covenant relationship, that it appears to be null and void in the case of Israel.

 

[Shermana]

I'm talking specifically about the covenant relationship, that it appears to be null and void in the case of Israel.

Ah, I see you're trying to tack some supercessionist theology into this. Shoulda figured.

Well, everyone has their own interpretation, but your basis that God CANNOT do anything is just plain...odd. I'd love to see why you think it's "Null and void". Must a prophet always be in existence for that relationship to be demonstrated? Was it null and void during the times Israel had no prophet?

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Ah, I see you're trying to tack some supercessionist theology into this. Shoulda figured.

Well, everyone has their own interpretation, but your basis that God CANNOT do anything is just plain...odd. I'd love to see why you think it's "Null and void". Must a prophet always be in existence for that relationship to be demonstrated? Was it null and void during the times Israel had no prophet?

Forget the supercessionist theology. It's not even important in the the discussion.The temple has long been destroyed, the ark is no more so the markers that God used in the OT to demonstrate his presence in Israel don't exist. God has said nothing to them in 2000+ years. In the OT God made a point of making the Jews stand out as a nation, often due to his blessings, especially though victory in battle. It's difficult to say how the people of Israel today differ in any significant way from the myriad of other tribes in the world

 

[Shermana]

I forget where the Tanakh says that the Temple must stand and the ark must be known for the Covenant to be in place. This must have been really puzzling for Ezra and Nehemiah when there was no Temple and no Ark.

 

[Caladan]

Ah, I see you're trying to tack some supercessionist theology into this. Shoulda figured.

Well, everyone has their own interpretation, but your basis that God CANNOT do anything is just plain...odd. I'd love to see why you think it's "Null and void". Must a prophet always be in existence for that relationship to be demonstrated? Was it null and void during the times Israel had no prophet?

I wouldn't worry about it. 'peace' maker's (really embarrassing posts for some who uses such a nick and such a quote in their signature) common but yet archaic replacement theology has nothing to do with this thread which aimed to discuss Muslims and the Qur'an. According to Muslims the last prophet was Muhammad, and according to Jews it was Malachi (and Ezra should be included here as well). The Christians? other than the fact that the OP did not ask about the New Testament (but you know evangelists, they will always jump a chance to preach), they had no prophets at all other then what they plagiaraized from the Jews. So to them there is no age of prophecy AT ALL, Biblically speaking.

 

[Caladan]

Also worth noting per the discussion above is that it were the Romans who destroyed the last standing Temple in Jerusalem, the same Rome which is the foundation of Christianity. Which makes sense from the whole replacement theology propaganda. Destroy a people, claim their worldly and spiritual treasures as your own.

 

[Pastek]

It would appear to be yours when you claim: "In saying that we don't have other choice than colons or dictators/extremists."
No. I did not say you had no other choice. You did.
So, if you did not mean that, then what do you mean?
Are you claiming to have no choice at all? No free will?
In which planet are you living?

I know we have the choice. Why do you think people fighted against Ben Ali, Kadaffi, Mubarak, Bashar ... ?

Don't try to return what you said (that we must choose colons or dictators rules) against me.

You are taking umbrage with my statement that you are slaughtering each other in large numbers.

Not at all, it's true i agree that we have crazy people who kill/killed muslims and non-muslims. I never negate that.

Explain why you would be offended at the very real problems that the Arab world has been dealing with for over 100 years, which is specifically self slaughter; self immolation; and self destruction.

I'm not offended, why you say that ? I never said it wasn't true.

Do you have a choice?
If so, what do you choose?

I'm happy to see those revolutions and i hope people will make the right choices.

I knew that the religious who were elected will face difficulties and that people will regret their vote (for those who can now vote). Because there's economical problems and i don't think religious can handle that.

But i also believe they have some pressions from western countries.

Anyway, like many said above this in not the subject of the thread.
I've already gave my opinion about it, but i don't know what other think about the verses Aamer quoted.

 

[garrydons]

shalom, in the Bible, various passages shows that the land of Israel is for the jewish people. and if it is stated likewise in the Quran, then it answers your question.