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Should Muslims acknowledge the Jews sovereignty over Israel?

Aamer

Aamer

Truth Seeker
This is not a political question, but a scriptural one. The Quran already prophesied in 17:104 that Jews would gather from different places to once again dwell in their promise land. So should Muslims just accept that this is part of Gods plan and let the Jews be in Israel? The question is open to Muslims, Jews, Christians and others.

Verses from Quran:
[17:4] We decreed to the Children of Israel in the book, that you will make corruption twice on earth, and that you will reach the zenith of arrogance.

[17:5] So, when the promise of the first one comes to pass, We would send against you servants of Ours who are very powerful, thus they managed to breach your very homes, and this was a promise which has come to pass.

[17:6] Then We gave back to you your independence from them, and We supplied you with wealth and children, and We made you more influential.

[17:7] If you do good, then it will be good for you, and if you do bad, then so be it. But when the promise of the second time comes, they will make your faces filled with sorrow and they will enter the Temple as they did the first time, and they will strike down all that was raised up.

[17:104] We said after him to the Children of Israel: "Dwell in the land, then, when the time of the second promise comes, We will bring you all together as a mixed crowd."
 
Pastek

Pastek

Sunni muslim
Ok, so if it's not a political question then let's analyse only the verses :

17.104 And We said after Pharaoh to the Children of Israel, "Dwell in the land, and when there comes the promise of the Hereafter, We will bring you forth in [one] gathering."

The question is : what's the "promise of the Hereafter" ?

The coming of the Messiah ? Some great signs ?
 
M

MusaaEl-Haadi

Member
Aamer said:
This is not a political question, but a scriptural one. The Quran already prophesied in 17:104 that Jews would gather from different places to once again dwell in their promise land. So should Muslims just accept that this is part of Gods plan and let the Jews be in Israel? The question is open to Muslims, Jews, Christians and others.

Verses from Quran:
[17:4] We decreed to the Children of Israel in the book, that you will make corruption twice on earth, and that you will reach the zenith of arrogance.

[17:5] So, when the promise of the first one comes to pass, We would send against you servants of Ours who are very powerful, thus they managed to breach your very homes, and this was a promise which has come to pass.

[17:6] Then We gave back to you your independence from them, and We supplied you with wealth and children, and We made you more influential.

[17:7] If you do good, then it will be good for you, and if you do bad, then so be it. But when the promise of the second time comes, they will make your faces filled with sorrow and they will enter the Temple as they did the first time, and they will strike down all that was raised up.

[17:104] We said after him to the Children of Israel: "Dwell in the land, then, when the time of the second promise comes, We will bring you all together as a mixed crowd."
Click to expand...

The real question here is How did they come about geting that land , Can we say Balfour Declaration , Now before someone try to use the Anti-jew card . Don't even try it . I'm not Anti-Anyone / Religion . With a little ReSearch one can see / know who the land of Palestine belong to .
 
LuisDantas

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Personally, I have no idea of what sovereignity would even be. It is a fantasy concept used for political purposes. Many find it worth the trouble, I do not.

Muslims and Jews should of course seek the best possible understanding, in Israel or anywhere else. But not on the grounds of such questionable concepts as sovereignity.
 
Shermana

Shermana

Heretic
I've often wondered how Muslims interpret getting their hineys kicked over and over again when trying to fight against the Jews.
 
metis

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
MusaaEl-Haadi said:
The real question here is How did they come about geting that land , Can we say Balfour Declaration , Now before someone try to use the Anti-jew card . Don't even try it . I'm not Anti-Anyone / Religion . With a little ReSearch one can see / know who the land of Palestine belong to .
Click to expand...

The Balfour Declaration was a recognition that part of what you call "Palestine" was we call "Israel", which predated the former.

The word "Palestine" actually comes from a Roman derivation of the name "Philistine", which is what they called the area, but when the Romans lost control of the area, that name was dropped. It was the Brits that brought back the "Palestine" name in the 19th century to differentiate that area from the French possessions. OTOH, the French referred to the Arabs that lived there as "sud-Syrians" ("south Syrians").

BTW, there is a "Palestinian" state, and it's called "Jordan", and it's obviously much larger than Israel, so maybe we can just recognize each other and share the area.

BTW, in Israel, 21% of the population is Arabic, but maybe you can explain to us why Jews are not allowed in either the West Bank or Gaza Strip? And why is it that the Christian population in the WB continues to be attacked by Muslem elements as churches have been destroyed and Christians attacked?
 
M

MusaaEl-Haadi

Member
metis said:
The Balfour Declaration was a recognition that part of what you call "Palestine" was we call "Israel", which predated the former.

The word "Palestine" actually comes from a Roman derivation of the name "Philistine", which is what they called the area, but when the Romans lost control of the area, that name was dropped. It was the Brits that brought back the "Palestine" name in the 19th century to differentiate that area from the French possessions. OTOH, the French referred to the Arabs that lived there as "sud-Syrians" ("south Syrians").

BTW, there is a "Palestinian" state, and it's called "Jordan", and it's obviously much larger than Israel, so maybe we can just recognize each other and share the area.

BTW, in Israel, 21% of the population is Arabic, but maybe you can explain to us why Jews are not allowed in either the West Bank or Gaza Strip? And why is it that the Christian population in the WB continues to be attacked by Muslem elements as churches have been destroyed and Christians attacked?
Click to expand...

Lakum Diinukum Wa Li Ya Diin - '' You will have your descision , And I will have mine
 
M

MusaaEl-Haadi

Member
Jayhawker Soule said:
Where did I indicate disagreement? You wrote:The first wave of Zionist immigration dates to the late 19th and early 20th century. I'm curious to read to whom you believe Palestine belonged at that time.
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It's best I don't get into this Anti-game I just got here . Anyway I smell set-up , cover up /coming . Any- way your answer is wrong .
 
Shermana

Shermana

Heretic
Assad91 said:
Oh yeah, that's not like asking "I wonder how Jews interpret getting persecuted for centuries, then gassed".:rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Quite easily, Deuteronomy 28. Holocaust Theology is a hotly debated topic but I see no difference in the Theological rationale than the destruction at the Babylonian and Assyrian and Roman hands. If anything, I believe the proportion with the Romans was a worse ratio. There's also the issue of how to interpret the prophecies which indicate how the events are played out.

Now are you saying that the same logic applies to the Palestinians? Or that there's no logic to apply to begin with? How does Islamic theology rationalize the string of Arab defeats and the successful defense by the Jews?
 
Shermana

Shermana

Heretic
Jayhawker Soule said:
Perhaps you're right.

I suspect many employ the same crude reward/punishment theology used to explain Israel's defeat by the Assyrians, the Babylonians, and the Romans.
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Indeed, I believe it's the standard Orthodox as well as Conservative Theology. And if you consider it "Crude Theology", then you might as well limit your arguments to those who don't take the Quran or the Torah seriously in that regard, which greatly limits your pool.
 
metis

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
MusaaEl-Haadi said:
Lakum Diinukum Wa Li Ya Diin - '' You will have your descision , And I will have mine
Click to expand...

Yes, but what I posted is based on historical facts that can easily be looked up even by a 10 year old. Therefore, I suggest doing the homework instead of just relying on propaganda devoid of reality.

BTW, when did you say that Jews would be allowed into the West Bank and Gaza Strip, and also when Christians will stop being persecuted? I can't seemingly recall your answer.
 
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