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Should it be illegal to offer to pray for someone or is it free exercise of religion?

Quintessence

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Okay, I need to do this, because I think the OP and thread title are misleading. The specific example the OP is talking about is this:

"Father James Linton was arrested last month outside the San Bernardino Planned Parenthood for offering to pray with women entering the abortion facility. Police held him for six hours and later charged him with criminal trespass. If convicted, Father Linton could be sentenced to up to 90 days in jail and a $400 fine.

When he was arrested, Father Linton, an Anglican pastor, was standing on a public easement offering incoming mothers and fathers alternatives to abortion and praying for them to change their minds."​

Asking whether or not it is okay to basically harass women who want to get an abortion is a very different question than asking if it is okay to pray for someone in some other context.
 
GodsVoice

GodsVoice

Active Member
whirlingmerc said:
An Anglican priest on public property was arrested and faces fine and imprisonment for offering to pray with two women as example.

http://www.lifenews.com/2016/12/02/...g-outside-planned-parenthood-abortion-clinic/
Click to expand...

Matthew 6
5: "And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by men. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward.
6: But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.
7: "And in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their many words.
8: Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
 
Brickjectivity

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
Its a gray area legally. The woman has right of way, and the prayer warrior is trying to stop her going somewhere, albeit with his voice. The stranger is concerned about the direction the mark is walking. The mark is on their way somewhere and doesn't have time to give equal attention to the interested stranger. The mark is concerned secondly about how they are going to leave and what the stranger might do. Yeah it can count as harrassment.
 
McBell

McBell

mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
Quintessence said:
The question, perhaps, becomes thus: "when does prayer become harassment?"
Click to expand...
I do not know that it does.
It is what is said, done, etc, before and or after the prayer that may constitute harassment.

Of course, I do not consider sermons prayer...
 
Quintessence

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Mestemia said:
I do not know that it does.
It is what is said, done, etc, before and or after the prayer that may constitute harassment.

Of course, I do not consider sermons prayer...
Click to expand...

That's odd to me. Something like a sermon, whose subjects are frequently singing the praises and stories of your gods, strikes me as the very heart of prayer. A word like "prayer" seems to encompass many different elements in various religious traditions. The whole concept of "praying for" someone in a patronizing fashion like this pastor was doing is something I have trouble understanding but it is relatively well-established understanding of prayer, isn't it?
 
McBell

McBell

mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
Quintessence said:
That's odd to me. Something like a sermon, whose subjects are frequently singing the praises and stories of your gods, strikes me as the very heart of prayer. A word like "prayer" seems to encompass many different elements in various religious traditions. The whole concept of "praying for" someone in a patronizing fashion like this pastor was doing is something I have trouble uIf the intent of the "prayer" is to derstanding but it is relatively well-established understanding of prayer, isn't it?
Click to expand...
If the intent of the "prayer" is to harass, is it actually a prayer?
 
Akivah

Akivah

Well-Known Member
whirlingmerc said:
An Anglican priest on public property was arrested and faces fine and imprisonment for offering to pray with two women as example.

http://www.lifenews.com/2016/12/02/...g-outside-planned-parenthood-abortion-clinic/
Click to expand...

The linked article doesn't mention what the priest did when the women declined his offers to pray with him. Did he:

1) body block them from going around him
2) start yelling, cursing them, and waving his bible in their faces
3) thank them for their time and let them be
4) ignore them
etc.

His actions when the women rejected his advances would determine if his arrest was justified.
 
C

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
whirlingmerc said:
An Anglican priest on public property was arrested and faces fine and imprisonment for offering to pray with two women as example.
Click to expand...
Would I have been allowed to stand on the sidewalk in front of his church "encouraging" parishioners to pray to Ganesh or Satan or whatever god image I felt that they were lacking?
I doubt it. I'm pretty sure that this is yet another example of Christians expecting special rules for themselves.
Tom
 
Quintessence

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Mestemia said:
If the intent of the "prayer" is to harass, is it actually a prayer?
Click to expand...

Hmm. What is relevant to me is to ask "is this person calling this a prayer, and is what they are doing generally accepted as a prayer by others in their community?" If the answer to that is "yes," then what they are doing is prayer, regardless of what some outsider wants to call it. I'd prefer to respect the terms used by a community to describe their activities rather than overwrite their terms with my own.
 
lovesong

lovesong

:D
Premium Member
I completely agree here. If he is just standing outside the building praying and talking to women as they pass, or even handing out pamphlets, fine. But if instead he is stopping women from entering, harassing them, or creating a public disturbance then he should absolutely be arrested. One person's right to free exercise and speech ends at another person's right to not be harassed.
 
McBell

McBell

mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
Quintessence said:
Hmm. What is relevant to me is to ask "is this person calling this a prayer, and is what they are doing generally accepted as a prayer by others in their community?" If the answer to that is "yes," then what they are doing is prayer, regardless of what some outsider wants to call it. I'd prefer to respect the terms used by a community to describe their activities rather than overwrite their terms with my own.
Click to expand...
hmmm...
good points.
 
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