Sexual violence, masculinity, and where these are rooted

[TruthSeeker1]

If that were true it would mean women are disproportionately likely to be knitters. And men are disproportionately likely to commit violence. It still leaves us with 'why are men more likely to commit violence' and 'what should we do about it?'

Thank you. It's not too hard to understand, so thanks for actually spelling it out. It's really evident that this topic results in a lot of emotion, and therefore, a lot of going on the automatic defense by some men, which is not actually productive or healthy for the conversation. We should be able to have an honest conversation here. I am not attacking men. I am asking the above questions, in light of articles I've read, over the years, and now about this discussion that is clearly starting to include men as well, in the sports realm. It's evident that violence is harmful towards men as well, not only women. And I'm not saying that women do not commit violent acts, they do. But this discussion I wanted to center around masculinity, it's different facets, where the roots of this violence could be, and what could be done about it.
We don't improve things by attacking each other, and pretending that real issues don't exist, or better yet, that people or groups have an agenda against men.
I'm interested in making this world a better place for people, with less violence, which hurts less people, men and women. Where is the harm in that?

 

[Shaul]

Not at all what this thread is about, or the discussion. You're just getting defensive and reacting to what was posted, instead of actually having a discussion about it.

I'm not bashing anything here, I'm discussing it, so once again, if you're also going to be one of those people who listens to reply instead of trying to listen to understand a point or perspective, and engage in healthy discussion instead of getting defensive right away, or trying to veer the topic off in another direction, then please move on. This was posted in the thread about men's issues, because it pertains to masculinity.

What made you think I was referring to you when I wrote that people want to bash masculinity? Many people do, even if not you specifically. Also it’s quite germane to this discussion. The meme of “toxic masculinity”[sic] dwarfs in quantity discussions of feminine violence. So I have a question for you. Why are you so intent on limiting this discussion to only masculinity and violence and not also femininity and violence?

 

[TruthSeeker1]

I've noticed that behavior from a few men when it comes to these topics. I am a man and have no problem admitting that males are the most violent sex. It's just biology. It's because of all the testosterone, which encourages social dominance behaviors and obviously violence is a good way to get status and what you want in society. There are biological differences between the sexes. It's just nature, as we're animals. The question is how to channel those natural drives in healthier and safer directions.

I do not think it's all nature. How much impact does the role modeling by your father, or other significant role models in your childhood, have on your future behaviour? Were you taught that violence was ok, that it was an ideal solution to problems? Did your fathers respect your mothers? How did they treat them physically? I think these are important questions.
I do not think it's OK or healthy to say "biology made me attack my wife, my testosterone is too high" (therefore the implication is that it's not my fault.)
We women are animals too.
I think it's time that we had a real discussion about what kinds of values are centered around what it means to be a man, how these values are encouraged, what masculinity is, what facets of this are healthy, what are not healthy and lead to unproductive things like violence.
There is no doubt that most of us come to have an identity based on what we are modelled and taught in childhood, by our immediate family, community, culture, and the wider society.
This is not only genetics and biology.

 

[TruthSeeker1]

What made you think I was referring to you when I wrote that people want to bash masculinity? Many people do, even if not you specifically. Also it’s quite germane to this discussion. The meme of “toxic masculinity”[sic] dwarfs in quantity discussions of feminine violence. So I have a question for you. Why are you so intent on limiting this discussion to only masculinity and violence and not also femininity and violence?

See the discussion with @ADigitalArtist

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I do not think it's all nature. How much impact does the role modeling by your father, or other significant role models in your childhood, have on your future behaviour? Were you taught that violence was ok, that it was an ideal solution to problems? Did your fathers respect your mothers? How did they treat them physically? I think these are important questions.
I do not think it's OK or healthy to say "biology made me attack my wife, my testosterone is too high" (therefore the implication is that it's not my fault.)
We women are animals too.
I think it's time that we had a real discussion about what kinds of values are centered around what it means to be a man, how these values are encouraged, what masculinity is, what facets of this are healthy, what are not healthy and lead to unproductive things like violence.
There is no doubt that most of us come to have an identity based on what we are modelled and taught in childhood, by our immediate family, community, culture, and the wider society.
This is not only genetics and biology.

I wasn't saying that. I said that testosterone tends to drive social dominance behaviors, which can include aggression towards others (including violence) or status seeking in other ways.

Strange but True: Testosterone Alone Does Not Cause Violence

 

[TruthSeeker1]

I wasn't saying that. I said that testosterone tends to drive social dominance behaviors, which can include aggression towards others (including violence) or status seeking in other ways.

Strange but True: Testosterone Alone Does Not Cause Violence

I didn't think you were (if I gave that impression), I was simply highlighting what I thought are other important things as well, that we need to look at society, culture, religion, and the way these intersect with notions of what it is to be a man/masculinity.

 

[Shaul]

I've noticed that behavior from a few men when it comes to these topics. I am a man and have no problem admitting that males are the most violent sex. It's just biology. It's because of all the testosterone, which encourages social dominance behaviors and obviously violence is a good way to get status and what you want in society. There are biological differences between the sexes. It's just nature, as we're animals. The question is how to channel those natural drives in healthier and safer directions.

What makes you so sure women aren’t as violent as men?

Higher violence by males may be associative and not causal from masculinity. This is indicated when it is remembered that males are also the greatest number of victims of violence too. Globally 78% of murder victims are males.

Women are also the largest group of perpetrators of filicide. In other words the person most likely to kill an infant is its mother.

Insinuating that testosterone causes violence is unscientific. Strange but True: Testosterone Alone Does Not Cause Violence

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

What makes you so sure women aren’t as violent as men?

Higher violence by males may be associative and not causal from masculinity. This is indicated when it is remembered that males are also the greatest number of victims of violence too. Globally 78% of murder victims are males.

Women are also the largest group of perpetrators of filicide. In other words the person most likely to kill an infant is its mother.

Insinuating that testosterone causes violence is unscientific. Strange but True: Testosterone Alone Does Not Cause Violence

I already posted that article and females aren't as violent because they simply aren't the sex committing most of the violence. And those men are almost invariably being killed by other men. This is simple logic.

 

[Watchmen]

What a ridiculous analogy, anyone can see the problem with that. Listen, if you're not going to actually be serious and contribute in a productive manner, you should move on. NOBODY is saying ALL men or ALL of masculinity is toxic here. GOT IT?

Not ridiculous at all. You only think it’s ridiculous because it exposed the dumb statement that men are violent “based on the facts.”

 

[TruthSeeker1]

Just for the record, for people reading this discussion. This does not need to center around violence, although violence is one thing being considered.
Much of this topic and my interest in it is based on my own personal history, being impacted as a woman in a fundamentalist church, in which men determined every aspect of my life, from what I wore, what I looked like, who I socialized with, what I believed, but luckily not who I would marry, at least (I was a rebel, I remained single)
I'm now a former fundamentalist, an atheist, out of the church, but I often reflect on this background, how my patriarchal ex-church, is only one (extreme) facet of Christianity, and how Christian values, based on the bible, have come to shape, in many ways, western culture and society, and therefore what it means to be a man or a woman in this society. Yes, there are certainly other factors to this, but religion, up until the recent decades, has had a huge impact on western culture and society. We can say we still live in a patriarchal, although maybe someday it will be a post-patriarchal, world.
So, is this patriarchal structure a positive or a negative for gender norms? Do men think about how patriarchy operates, who it benefits, and how? How do patriarchal values shape what it is to be a man/masculinity? How do patriarchal values result in such things as some men inadvertently patronizing women (and not even being aware that it can be patronizing), and some women not appreciating it? (just one example brought up by a male in this conversation thread). Do patriarchal values encourage traits in men such as dominance, aggression, and ultimately violence?
Just some of the many questions I've had as a result of my own experiences.

 

[TruthSeeker1]

Not ridiculous at all. You only think it’s ridiculous because it exposed the dumb statement that men are violent “based on the facts.”

Listen, if you can't accept that violence is most often perpetuated by men, in particular domestic violence, then I'm done with you. Feel free to argue with others here, but I wont argue with you, I've better things to do.

 

[Watchmen]

I've noticed that behavior from a few men when it comes to these topics. I am a man and have no problem admitting that males are the most violent sex. It's just biology. It's because of all the testosterone, which encourages social dominance behaviors and obviously violence is a good way to get status and what you want in society. There are biological differences between the sexes. It's just nature, as we're animals. The question is how to channel those natural drives in healthier and safer directions.

Yes. Men are more violent. That’s not the discussion.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Yes. Men are more violent. That’s not the discussion.

You want to tell Shaul that?

 

[Watchmen]

Listen, if you can't accept that violence is most often perpetuated by men, in particular domestic violence, then I'm done with you. Feel free to argue with others here, but I wont argue with you, I've better things to do.

The violence you speak of is generally committed by men. That’s different than blanket statements like “men are violent.”

 

[Watchmen]

Just for the record, for people reading this discussion. This does not need to center around violence, although violence is one thing being considered.
Much of this topic and my interest in it is based on my own personal history, being impacted as a woman in a fundamentalist church, in which men determined every aspect of my life, from what I wore, what I looked like, who I socialized with, what I believed, but luckily not who I would marry, at least (I was a rebel, I remained single)
I'm now a former fundamentalist, an atheist, out of the church, but I often reflect on this background, how my patriarchal ex-church, is only one (extreme) facet of Christianity, and how Christian values, based on the bible, have come to shape, in many ways, western culture and society, and therefore what it means to be a man or a woman in this society. Yes, there are certainly other factors to this, but religion, up until the recent decades, has had a huge impact on western culture and society. We can say we still live in a patriarchal, although maybe someday it will be a post-patriarchal, world.
So, is this patriarchal structure a positive or a negative for gender norms? Do men think about how patriarchy operates, who it benefits, and how? How do patriarchal values shape what it is to be a man/masculinity? How do patriarchal values result in such things as some men inadvertently patronizing women (and not even being aware that it can be patronizing), and some women not appreciating it? (just one example brought up by a male in this conversation thread). Do patriarchal values encourage traits in men such as dominance, aggression, and ultimately violence?
Just some of the many questions I've had as a result of my own experiences.

So your views are severely influenced by unfortunate personal experiences. Violent men are violent. Good men are good. This is true regardless of what group the men find themselves in, Christianity or otherwise.

 

[Estro Felino]

What makes you so sure women aren’t as violent as men?

Higher violence by males may be associative and not causal from masculinity. This is indicated when it is remembered that males are also the greatest number of victims of violence too. Globally 78% of murder victims are males.

Women are also the largest group of perpetrators of filicide. In other words the person most likely to kill an infant is its mother.

Insinuating that testosterone causes violence is unscientific. Strange but True: Testosterone Alone Does Not Cause Violence

I have 2 sisters . They have always fought very violently over clothes, over friends...and over boyfriends

 

[TruthSeeker1]

So your views are severely influenced by unfortunate personal experiences. Violent men are violent. Good men are good. This is true regardless of what group the men find themselves in, Christianity or otherwise.

No, now you are drawing your own conclusions. I'm more than aware of the fact that good men are good and violent men are violent (and the same goes for women), and I have overwhelmingly had good men around me supporting me my entire life. So, draw your conclusions. I even went into detail about why I think about things such as the patriarchy, and patriarchal values. Really, you will jump at the first thing you can to put words into people's mouths which they actually haven't said, or draw conclusions that they hold certain views based on their personal experiences. Just move on. I'm a philosophical type of person and you aren't.

 

[TruthSeeker1]

I have 2 sisters . They have always fought very violently over clothes, over friends...and over boyfriends

That's fine, don't draw conclusions based on the behaviour of your sisters. Completely irrelevant to the discussion underway here.

 

[TruthSeeker1]

The violence you speak of is generally committed by men. That’s different than blanket statements like “men are violent.”

Do you even read posts? I will repeat my words once more: "NOBODY is saying ALL men or ALL of masculinity is toxic here. GOT IT?"
I suggest you find another thread to get interested in, because you're not even participating and reading properly.

 

[Estro Felino]

That's fine, don't draw conclusions based on the behaviour of your sisters. Completely irrelevant to the discussion underway here.

It is relevant if you want to affirm that males have the monopoly on violence.

If they could, women would rape men too, but it's not possible because of their passive role during intercourse