Sexual violence, masculinity, and where these are rooted

[Watchmen]

No, now you are drawing your own conclusions. I'm more than aware of the fact that good men are good and violent men are violent (and the same goes for women), and I have overwhelmingly had good men around me supporting me my entire life. So, draw your conclusions. I even went into detail about why I think about things such as the patriarchy, and patriarchal values. Really, you will jump at the first thing you can to put words into people's mouths which they actually haven't said, or draw conclusions that they hold certain views based on their personal experiences. Just move on. I'm a philosophical type of person and you aren't.

Are you capable of not overreacting? I didn’t say anything negative, but you jumped to the conclusion that I did. Is it because I happen to be a man?

 

[Watchmen]

Do you even read posts? I will repeat my words once more: "NOBODY is saying ALL men or ALL of masculinity is toxic here. GOT IT?"
I suggest you find another thread to get interested in, because you're not even participating and reading properly.

I suggest you relax. I haven’t used the word toxic once in this thread. Take a deep breath. You’re trying to find contention where there is none.

 

[Watchmen]

That's fine, don't draw conclusions based on the behaviour of your sisters. Completely irrelevant to the discussion underway here.

So you draw conclusions based on your own experience, but the poster can’t draw conclusions based on the sisters’ conduct. Sounds like a double standard.

 

[Watchmen]

Do you even read posts? I will repeat my words once more: "NOBODY is saying ALL men or ALL of masculinity is toxic here. GOT IT?"
I suggest you find another thread to get interested in, because you're not even participating and reading properly.

Just a reminder that you earlier cited Orbit’s post and said “facts are facts” to implicitly suggest that “men are violent” as Orbit said. I already proved that statement wrong. So no wonder you’d like me to leave this thread.

Now back to the OP if possible, do you think violent men are enabled by patriarchal religious groups? If so, why?

 

[TruthSeeker1]

It is relevant if you want to affirm that males have the monopoly on violence.

If they could, women would rape men too, but it's not possible because of their passive role during intercourse

This is beyond stupid. Seriously if you have nothing of substance to add to the discussion instead of stupid claims, move on.

 

[TruthSeeker1]

Just a reminder that you earlier cited Orbit’s post and said “facts are facts” to implicitly suggest that “men are violent” as Orbit said. I already proved that statement wrong. So no wonder you’d like me to leave this thread.

Now back to the OP if possible, do you think violent men are enabled by patriarchal religious groups? If so, why?

If you look at my original posts and the one in which I discussed patriarchy, you will see that I posited a whole bunch of questions for people to consider, and only a few of my own conclusions. Does this not indicate I'm interested in having a discussion, instead of just voicing my own opinions here?
But I'll tell you in particular, that I'm no longer interested in having a discussion with you, because you clearly have a bone to pick here and feel defensive.
You've also drawn the conclusion that based on my personal experience, I hold certain views etc. You're not interested in having the discussion, because you simply need to make claims such as the fact that Orbit's statement wasn't true, when in fact it is - men have a problem with violence, because violence is most often perpetrated by men. This does not mean all men have a problem with violence.
Anyway, I'm going to limit myself to discussing with the people who are more open-minded and actually interested in discussing the issues together because I've wasted plenty of time with people who aren't before, and I'm not doing that again.

 

[Estro Felino]

This is beyond stupid. Seriously if you have nothing of substance to add to the discussion instead of stupid claims, move on.

wow...quelle gentillesse...
Sorbonne?

 

[InChrist]

Some of us spent our entire lives up to a certain point seeking god, so to speak (although most christians will write us off with some such excuse or other that we weren't true seekers etc). When we got tired enough we started looking at the questions objectively, and finally woke up. And that's all I have to say on that topic.

I don't write you off. I think the process of seeking God and truth can be just that...a process and often a very long and involved process. Were you raised in a Christian home or church? How or where did you seek God? Just asking, but you don't have to respond of course, if you prefer not to.

 

[TruthSeeker1]

I don't write you off. I think the process of seeking God and truth can be just that...a process and often a very long and involved process. Were you raised in a Christian home or church? How or where did you seek God? Just asking, but you don't have to respond of course, if you prefer not to.

I don't think you've even been following the conversation? I said I'm a former fundamentalist, yes, I grew up that way, so I wasn't seeking anything, I was indoctrinated into it. Am I done with it? Totally. Is the topic of Christianity up for discussion on these forums for me? No. I'm done with proselytizers. This topic isn't about seeking God, or whether Christianity is true or not.

 

[InChrist]

I don't think you've even been following the conversation? I said I'm a former fundamentalist, yes, I grew up that way, so I wasn't seeking anything, I was indoctrinated into it. Am I done with it? Totally. Is the topic of Christianity up for discussion on these forums for me? No. I'm done with proselytizers. This topic isn't about seeking God, or whether Christianity is true or not.

Okay. I'm sorry about missing all the details. I've only had the time recently to read bits and pieces of this thread. Also, sorry to hear you were indoctrinated into religious Christianity and from one of the bits I did read, it seems the patriarchal movement. Were you homeschooled?

 

[TruthSeeker1]

Okay. I'm sorry about missing all the details. I've only had the time recently to read bits and pieces of this thread. Also, sorry to hear you were indoctrinated into religious Christianity and from one of the bits I did read, it seems the patriarchal movement. Were you homeschooled?

Does it matter? Completely irrelevant to this discussion and topic. I went to a public school, and I have a BA and an MA. Now please people, if you want to discuss, lets stick to the questions and issues at hand.

 

[InChrist]

Does it matter? Completely irrelevant to this discussion and topic. I went to a public school, and I have a BA and an MA. Now please people, if you want to discuss, lets stick to the questions and issues at hand.

Well, how about the possibility that the problem is not masculinity, but sin. Anyone who desires to exalt themselves and dominant over others will find some excuse or validation for their sin through religion, culture, patriarchy or whatever.

 

[TruthSeeker1]

Well, how about the possibility that the problem is not masculinity, but sin. Anyone who desires to exalt themselves and dominant over others will find some excuse or validation for their sin through religion, culture, patriarchy or whatever.

Is it not possible to stay away from religious connotations? We're talking about behaviour here, so just use "behaviour" in it's place, its a neutral word. I'm just not going to have this discussion within a construct where the default context is Christian. This is a neutral space.
As it is, I don't think you fully understand the discussion here. I'm not putting blame on one thing or another, like "religion, culture, patriarchy, or whatever" - I'm more interested in discussing how certain values within these arenas (not the arenas themselves) - can contribute to ideas about masculinity/what it is to be a man, that aren't so helpful, that can then contribute to violence. Violence is always a personal choice. However, whether or not we choose to be violent could be related to our own individual understanding of questions, (which are impacted by religion, culture, role modeling etc) such as "is a man entitled to physically punish his children or wife?" or "is hazing just another aspect of 'being a man' or 'boys being boys'?"
So, one's religious understandings of punishment, or the cultural/societal context/understanding of punishment, for example, can all have an impact on whether punishment is used, and whether or not it becomes violent, and whether violence is acceptable.
These aren't simple questions with simple answers like "masculinity is to blame for violence" or "(all) men are violent." I'm talking about specific ideas or values that could be contributing to/are part of concepts like masculinity.
For example, patriarchal values (at least traditional Christian ones) idealize the man/husband as the head of the family, not the woman/wife. Do these values then lend more control to the man? Yes, they do, because they necessitate that he be the head of the family. What then constitutes this control, which is how the man remains the head of the family. What is regarded as acceptable use of control? All of these answers are dependent on individual family values, religious values, societal values, cultural values...they all come into play.
So I'm interested in having a discussion about values in regards to masculinity, not blanket statements of blame.

 

[Watchmen]

men have a problem with violence, because violence is most often perpetrated by men.

There you go again. This is a false statement. Remember my knitting example?

Did you watch the video I posted?

You say your interested in a discussion but your posts suggest the contrary.

Do you want to discuss the knitting example? How is it different than what you’re saying?

Do you want to discuss the points in the video? I find it thought provoking.

You also refused to answer my question about patriarchy. Are you going to do so?

 

[TruthSeeker1]

There you go again. This is a false statement. Remember my knitting example?

Did you watch the video I posted?

You say your interested in a discussion but your posts suggest the contrary.

Do you want to discuss the knitting example? How is it different than what you’re saying?

Do you want to discuss the points in the video? I find it thought provoking.

You also refused to answer my question about patriarchy. Are you going to do so?

I'm here to hear the opinion of men in regards to a whole bunch of questions I posted, which I have thought of over the last months. What I'm not here for is people thinking they must present counter arguments because they feel defensive, and as I see it, ones that have an agenda (you clearly disagree with me on that, which is just fine). Therefore if you don't have any interest in discussing the actual posts, or the questions in there, feel free to engage with others on here. I'm here for some personal discussion about people's personal perspectives or experiences or their thoughts on these questions etc - if you have no thoughts of your own to actually write about here in response to the things I've written about (instead of video links which I'm not interested in for reasons already stated), well then sorry.
I've actually said a lot already about my thoughts on patriarchy and how it could relate to ideals of masculinity or impact behaviour. I do not have any "patriarchy results in this or that" claims if that's what you're actually waiting for. As stated, I'm not here to make claims.

 

[Watchmen]

I'm here to hear the opinion of men in regards to a whole bunch of questions I posted, which I have thought of over the last months. What I'm not here for is people thinking they must present counter arguments because they feel defensive, and as I see it, ones that have an agenda (you clearly disagree with me on that, which is just fine). Therefore if you don't have any interest in discussing the actual posts, or the questions in there, feel free to engage with others on here. I'm here for some personal discussion about people's personal perspectives or experiences or their thoughts on these questions etc - if you have no thoughts of your own to actually write about here in response to the things I've written about (instead of video links which I'm not interested in for reasons already stated), well then sorry.
I've actually said a lot already about my thoughts on patriarchy and how it could relate to ideals of masculinity or impact behaviour. I do not have any "patriarchy results in this or that" claims if that's what you're actually waiting for. As stated, I'm not here to make claims.

So you’re refusing to engage in a discussion. Got it. That won’t stop me from asking questions, though.

 

[Watchmen]

This got me thinking about sexual violence, and not just what we typically hear about, that of violence by men against women, but also violence by men against men. And that got me thinking about masculinity, and how it's defined, and how much do these definitions contribute to what's considered acceptable, and what isn't.

Th definitions of masculinity don’t contribute to sexual violence. There is nothing inherently evil with masculinity. Violence is committed by violent people. Is the most damaging violence committed by men? Yes. But that does not make men violent, and I would argue such violence takes away from masculinity as it takes away from what it means to be a man.

 

[TruthSeeker1]

Th definitions of masculinity don’t contribute to sexual violence. There is nothing inherently evil with masculinity. Violence is committed by violent people. Is the most damaging violence committed by men? Yes. But that does not make men violent, and I would argue such violence takes away from masculinity as it takes away from what it means to be a man.

Since you're not open to actually discussing aspects of masculinity, and have made your conclusions about it's contributions, I suggest you find someone else to discuss with who also has the answers and can make blanket claims just as well. Good luck.

 

[Watchmen]

The questions that I'm interested in are, how much do notions about what it is to be masculine, contribute to sexual violence, or validate it?

Masculinity is not a contributor to violence, nor does it validate violence.

How much are norms of masculinity changing? Are they really, even though there is a lot of talk about how it's more acceptable for men to be compassionate, and express emotion, instead of being tough and reserved?

Men are being emasculated to the detriment of society. It’s a reality.

Is chauvinism, the attitude that men are superior to women, still relatively entrenched among men?

Maybe among some men. I prefer chivalry. What are your thoughts on that concept?

Is sexual violence (hazing, outright sexual abuse) by men against men more acceptable to men than violence by men against women? If so, why is this so?

I hope not, but society probably does violence by men against men more acceptable. After all, we have phrases like, “A man should never hit a woman,” but we don’t have the equivalent for men.

 

[Watchmen]

Since you're not open to actually discussing aspects of masculinity, and have made your conclusions about it's contributions, I suggest you find someone else to discuss with who also has the answers and can make blanket claims just as well. Good luck.

You’re not a TruthSeeker are you? You try to shut down others who have thoughts different than yours. I’ve been respectful, have asked questions, and invited a discussion. You come back with assumptions about me and my motives. It’s pathetic really.