Sexual abuse in Mormon church

[Jane.Doe]

I was determined not to let the cycle continue - did everything humanly possible to protect those kids... well, now thanks to a few "high priests" the cycle has continued. I thought I was over my past - it's easier to deal with your own tests (non-LDS), quite another thing to see those you love harmed (LDS).

Clarification on what I meant: I was broken by a broken person who was broken by another broken person. I am no longer broken and will not hurt another. Instead I am now strong.

I was not talking about ensuring no one in my circle of influence would ever not be hurt. I know the risks all too well to ever think that.

 

[Katzpur]

I'm disappointed Katz, I thought you would have better answers for me than that.

Like what? What did you want me to say other than that I am appalled and sickened by both the abuse and the cover-up?

People who leave the church, who "attack" the church, we don't want to be attacked back - we do not want to be hated, we just want answers.

Nobody hates you. Every LDS person on this forum reached out to you in one way or another when you announced you were leaving the Church. Nobody passed judgment, nobody attacked you. And on this particular issue (abuse), every last one of us has expressed our outrage. But that evidently isn't enough. I just don't know what you want from us that we haven't tried to give you.

 

[idea]

Like what? What did you want me to say other than that I am appalled and sickened by both the abuse and the cover-up?

Nobody hates you. Every LDS person on this forum reached out to you in one way or another when you announced you were leaving the Church. Nobody passed judgment, nobody attacked you. And on this particular issue (abuse), every last one of us has expressed our outrage. But that evidently isn't enough. I just don't know what you want from us that we haven't tried to give you.

I do not want sympathy, I want answers to doctrinal questions. I want someone to rationalize how they do not see g-d as being a monster.

9 And it came to pass that they took Alma and Amulek, and carried them forth to the place of martyrdom, that they might witness the destruction of those who were consumed by fire.
10 And when Amulek saw the pains of the women and children who were consuming in the fire, he also was pained; and he said unto Alma: How can we witness this awful scene? Therefore let us stretch forth our hands, and exercise the power of God which is in us, and save them from the flames.
11 But Alma said unto him: The Spirit constraineth me that I must not stretch forth mine hand...

this in the name of free agency? whose free agency is being protected here? What about the free agency of the women and children? So g-d protects Daniel in the lion's den, but then he lets other women and children burn to death?? wth???

I do not even blame the abuser in this case anymore - he was sucked into his addiction at a very young age, and I now know what addiction is - he did not have control over himself. I do not blame him, I blame g-d.

 

[Jane.Doe]

I do not even blame the abuser in this case anymore - he was sucked into his addiction at a very young age, and I now know what addiction is - he did not have control over himself. I do not blame him, I blame g-d.

There's a lot of things here in your post here. I'll address first things first:

As I said earlier, my abuser was an abuse victim himself (from his father, nonetheless) and an addict. Does that mean he's not responsible for his actions-- or that I would not be responsible for my actions if I were in turn abuse another? NO!!!!! The sole person who is responsible for the abuser himself- his past in NO way excuses his actions or makes them any less horrible.

Does that make sense?

 

[idea]

There's a lot of things here in your post here. I'll address first things first:

As I said earlier, my abuser was an abuse victim himself (from his father, nonetheless) and an addict. Does that mean he's not responsible for his actions-- or that I would not be responsible for my actions if I were in turn abuse another? NO!!!!! The sole person who is responsible for the abuser himself- his past in NO way excuses his actions or makes them any less horrible.

Does that make sense?

Children below the age of 8 are not accountable, are innocent - agree? So let's suppose one of these innocent children is exposed to something harmful - perhaps they were born addicted to drugs, or perhaps they were otherwise abused - and this resulted in physically/chemically changing them. Then, through a shame culture, the issue was not dealt with, it was hidden - the physical dependence grew - talk to any professional addiction recovery councilor you want and they will tell you a true addict cannot control themselves. It is not about mental willpower, it is a physically changed body. They need professional help, they need medication, they need mentors, they need support services. No - I do not blame the abuser. I blame their environment.

Addiction - Wikipedia
Roughly half of an individual's risk for developing an addiction is derived from genetics, while the other half is derived from the environment... "in order to be effective, all pharmacological or biologically based treatments for addiction need to be integrated into other established forms of addiction rehabilitation, such as cognitive behavioral therapy, individual and group psychotherapy, behavior-modification strategies, twelve-step programs, and residential treatment facilities...

 

[Katzpur]

I do not even blame the abuser in this case anymore - he was sucked into his addiction at a very young age, and I now know what addiction is - he did not have control over himself. I do not blame him, I blame g-d.

Okay. Go right ahead and blame God if it makes you feel better. Just don't expect me to jump on your bandwagon, and don't try to imply that I am lacking in compassion simply because I don't hate God for what human beings do. I didn't hate God when 17 students were gunned down on Valentine's Day at Stoneman Douglas High School in Florida. Did you? If so, I didn't see your rant against Him at that time? Did you hate God when ou first learned about the Holocaust? If you did, you've never given any indication that you did. I went back this morning and read some of your posts from ten years ago. I feel like I'm talking to a different human being today.

 

[Jane.Doe]

Children below the age of 8 are not accountable, are innocent - agree? So let's suppose one of these innocent children is exposed to something harmful - perhaps they were born addicted to drugs, or perhaps they were otherwise abused - and this resulted in physically/chemically changing them. Then, through a shame culture, the issue was not dealt with, it was hidden - the physical dependence grew - talk to any professional addiction recovery councilor you want and they will tell you a true addict cannot control themselves. It is not about mental willpower, it is a physically changed body. They need professional help, they need medication, they need mentors, they need support services. No - I do not blame the abuser. I blame their environment.

My abuser and I were both exposed at age 4. We both grew up in a world of secrets, without medication or support for our troubles, and were drastically changed by our experiences. Are you seriously saying you truly believe that:
- He carries zero responsibly for what he did to me.
- I would carry no responsibility if I were to go around molesting little kids?

 

[dianaiad]

so... you do not believe in the priesthood? or expect spiritual guidance etc.? Nothing different inside than outside the church?

Do you? If you do, then you are aware that those who have the priesthood, or believe in it, have to live their lives in such a way as to be worthy of it. Or at least try to be worthy of it. Those who don't are cutting themselves off from such guidance. It happens. It happens even to those who are supposed to be the 'best' of us. Judas, anybody? Peter denying Jesus three times? Indeed, I think that every prophet written about in the bible with more than two or three verses devoted to him had at least one of those verses talk about something he did wrong.

I'll repeat; it is not logical to blame the belief system for the actions of those who break its rules.

It is about more than the abuser - it is about all who know about the abuse and do not report it, about those who claim to have the spirit and claim to give callings etc. through the spirit and yet do NOT have the spirit - for abuse to exist, and in same cases continue for years without being stopped - that involves quite a few people by the end of it.

Yes. This is true. You ARE aware that as soon as the church (above the local level) was made aware of the situation (in 2010) it was reported to the police, and the POLICE couldn't find any reason to act on it? If THEY could not, what was the CHURCH supposed to do?

Yes, this missionary told quite a few people before this happened, and someone should have listened.

However, we are now talking about a man who was honored, the president of a mission, the president of a college, a man who'd had a long life with a sterling reputation.

........and a young woman who claimed that he had taken her to a basement room, shown her pornography, and attempted to rape her. A young woman who, evidently, acquired the habit of making false accusations of a similar nature against other people.

This sort of thing can happen to victims of sexual abuse; it's not uncommon, actually. However, you can understand why someone with this propensity might not be listened to when there isn't any other evidence to support her claims.

Now, evidently, there is.

Here's the thing: my uncle worked in the church education department all his life. His reputation was also sterling. However, his daughter (who is a whole week older than me) accused him of molesting her, sexually, for most of her teenage years. Her accusations almost ruined his life, and it did ruin his career. The only reason they did NOT get him excommunicated and jailed is because at least four of the incidents she talked about happened when she was in Utah.......and he was in Australia. One of them, she claimed, happened at a sleep over I was involved with. There were something like six or seven cousins all bunking in an upstairs loft, and the adults (including my uncle) were downstairs. My cousin never left the loft...and we were up and gossiping, eating popcorn and telling stories...all night.

My uncle was in the company of one or another adult all that same night. We know this because the police WERE informed and our family put through hell over this.

Turns out that it was a case of 'false memory' implanted by a very unethical therapist. To this day my cousin is torn; she KNOWS that her memories are false; we have proven this to her, but she still BELIEVES those memories, and it took her until well after my uncle's death to forgive him for something he never did.

So you can understand that I, at least, require a bit more than someone's story. SOMETHING else. With Bishop, it seems we have that something else.

But even so, all it proves, insofar as the priesthood/our beliefs are concerned, is that we all have free will; we can choose to seek and follow the guidance we are promised, or we can go our own way.

One cannot blame the advice for the sins of those who don't follow it.

 

[Jane.Doe]

Turns out that it was a case of 'false memory' implanted by a very unethical therapist. To this day my cousin is torn; she KNOWS that her memories are false; we have proven this to her, but she still BELIEVES those memories, and it took her until well after my uncle's death to forgive him for something he never did.

I'm sorry for all the pain your family went through.

 

[dianaiad]

I'm sorry for all the pain your family went through.

thank you. It was hard on everybody, up to and especially my cousin.

 

[idea]

My abuser and I were both exposed at age 4. We both grew up in a world of secrets, without medication or support for our troubles, and were drastically changed by our experiences. Are you seriously saying you truly believe that:
- He carries zero responsibly for what he did to me.
- I would carry no responsibility if I were to go around molesting little kids?

I believe that the abuser, and the victims all need professionally run support groups and therapy. Yes, it all starts with secrets - a big part of the problem is for society to start talking more openly about things like this so neither victims nor addicts feel uncomfortable talking through what is going on. This stuff is so common, it seems conversations about it should be as common as well.

The responsibility always lies with more than one person. It is hard to know the truth, no one can ever know another's heart or mind. There is good and evil in everyone - I prefer to blame the laws of nature, entropy, chemical reactions, evolution - I do not hate the sand on the beach for not being strong enough to cling together into a rock - its just nature, everything falls apart, nothing is really that strong, just how everything was created.

 

[Jane.Doe]

I believe that the abuser, and the victims all need professionally run support groups and therapy. Yes, it all starts with secrets - a big part of the problem is for society to start talking more openly about things like this so neither victims nor addicts feel uncomfortable talking through what is going on. This stuff is so common, it seems conversations about it should be as common as well. .

100% agreed with all that, though it doesn't address my question.

The responsibility always lies with more than one person. It is hard to know the truth, no one can ever know another's heart or mind. There is good and evil in everyone - I prefer to blame the laws of nature, entropy, chemical reactions, evolution - I do not hate the sand on the beach for not being strong enough to cling together into a rock - its just nature, everything falls apart, nothing is really that strong, just how everything was created.

Point-blank question and I'm asking for a point-blank answer:
Do you believe my abuser carries zero responsibly for what he did to me?

 

[idea]

Do you? If you do, then you are aware that those who have the priesthood, or believe in it, have to live their lives in such a way as to be worthy of it. Or at least try to be worthy of it. Those who don't are cutting themselves off from such guidance. It happens. It happens even to those who are supposed to be the 'best' of us. Judas, anybody? Peter denying Jesus three times? Indeed, I think that every prophet written about in the bible with more than two or three verses devoted to him had at least one of those verses talk about something he did wrong.

I'll repeat; it is not logical to blame the belief system for the actions of those who break its rules.

I do not understand the author of the rules, or the point of the rules.

Yes. This is true. You ARE aware that as soon as the church (above the local level) was made aware of the situation (in 2010) it was reported to the police, and the POLICE couldn't find any reason to act on it? If THEY could not, what was the CHURCH supposed to do?

Yes, this missionary told quite a few people before this happened, and someone should have listened.

However, we are now talking about a man who was honored, the president of a mission, the president of a college, a man who'd had a long life with a sterling reputation.

........and a young woman who claimed that he had taken her to a basement room, shown her pornography, and attempted to rape her. A young woman who, evidently, acquired the habit of making false accusations of a similar nature against other people.

This sort of thing can happen to victims of sexual abuse; it's not uncommon, actually. However, you can understand why someone with this propensity might not be listened to when there isn't any other evidence to support her claims.

Now, evidently, there is.

Here's the thing: my uncle worked in the church education department all his life. His reputation was also sterling. However, his daughter (who is a whole week older than me) accused him of molesting her, sexually, for most of her teenage years. Her accusations almost ruined his life, and it did ruin his career. The only reason they did NOT get him excommunicated and jailed is because at least four of the incidents she talked about happened when she was in Utah.......and he was in Australia. One of them, she claimed, happened at a sleep over I was involved with. There were something like six or seven cousins all bunking in an upstairs loft, and the adults (including my uncle) were downstairs. My cousin never left the loft...and we were up and gossiping, eating popcorn and telling stories...all night.

My uncle was in the company of one or another adult all that same night. We know this because the police WERE informed and our family put through hell over this.

Turns out that it was a case of 'false memory' implanted by a very unethical therapist. To this day my cousin is torn; she KNOWS that her memories are false; we have proven this to her, but she still BELIEVES those memories, and it took her until well after my uncle's death to forgive him for something he never did.

So you can understand that I, at least, require a bit more than someone's story. SOMETHING else. With Bishop, it seems we have that something else.

But even so, all it proves, insofar as the priesthood/our beliefs are concerned, is that we all have free will; we can choose to seek and follow the guidance we are promised, or we can go our own way.

One cannot blame the advice for the sins of those who don't follow it.

Yes, it seems everyone has had some sort of experience - I cannot publicly share the details of the situation I am fighting over right now... once again, communication is the key.

Many with sexual addictions have had issues for years - like Bishop in the recent case. These people lie through every interview, year after year after year. Isn't this supposed to be the point of the Spirit? To know truth from a lie? To protect?

I have felt the spirit - the spirit warned me, the spirit is the reason I was able to stop a bad situation when I did. I know a bishop cannot do what I did - yelling, confronting, computer hacking, GPS tracking, confronting again - grilling to get through the lies until the liar knew they cannot lie to me anymore...

What would happen if a bishop said "I'm sorry, I do not believe you, I'm not going to give you a temple recommend this time around", etc.? are they even allowed to do that? The church has become so procedure and manual driven, that it seems very few actually follow the spirit... in which case, background checks, references, two-deep interviews - more open conversations between everyone - that is what is needed.

Sorry to hear of yours, and everyone's bad experiences. The world is becoming much more transparent - cameras everywhere, internet connecting everyone - I think it is time to use technology to the fullest. Teach victims how to use their cell phones to record evidence, teach leaders how to do background checks, and for everyone to talk through their pain more openly so problems can actually be dealt with.

 

[idea]

100% agreed with all that, though it doesn't address my question.

Point-blank question and I'm asking for a point-blank answer:
Do you believe my abuser carries zero responsibly for what he did to me?

I like numbers, but know I can never put a number to anyone - I do not know, I cannot say.
Are you able to see both the good and the bad in your abuser? I think it hurts less to visualize the good in people too...

 

[Jane.Doe]

I like numbers, but know I can never put a number to anyone - I do not know, I cannot say.
Are you able to see both the good and the bad in your abuser? I think it hurts less to visualize the good in people too...

I can see good and bad in all people. That doesn't mean I ignore the responsibly a person has for their actions.

Please answer my question directly: Do you believe my abuser carries zero responsibly for what he did to me?

 

[dianaiad]

I do not understand the author of the rules, or the point of the rules.

You don't have to...at least for the rules other people are supposed to follow.

All you have to do is remember that you can't BLAME those rules for the actions of those who break them, whether you understand them or not.

As for the rest of your post and your recommendations regarding using technology...I agree with you. Provisionally. I especially agree with you when someone feels 'hincky' about a situation. By all means, hit the record button on the cell phone. I have a little problem with using technology to simply spy on everybody at all times, just in case. 1984, anybody?

As for temple recommends....I don't think a temple recommend interview is the place to talk about someone else attempting to sexually abuse you. THAT report should be made its own interview...and if the subject comes up during a temple recommend interview, it suddenly becomes NOT a Temple recommend interview, but about the accusation.

If a bishop actually says that to someone (and I can't think of anybody who would, but hey....I haven't met all the bishops in the church), then the next call one makes should be to the stake president.

 

[InChrist]

Yes, that is often one of the most troubling things about these cases, they seldom go public out of respect for the young victims involved. It is not until years later, after the victims have lived with anger and unresolved / unacknowledged pain - as in this new case - and are finally old enough to tell their story on their own, that many situations come out... of course by then, no one believes anything "why did they wait 30 years to say something, they must not be telling the truth.." etc., then other victims see previous victims laughed at / dis-fellow-shipped / ridiculed for sharing their pain, and new victims refuse to come forward. So how does anyone talk about this stuff?

I yelled at our detective - they were relying on the church to provide emotional support and counseling services - this is wrong wrong wrong, that is NOT professional, the church's #1 goal is to hide and belittle, they are NOT helping these kids. I am so angry right now - I hate being angry. Anger can be good though, this is how things are stopped right?

This kind of situation is so terrible and very upsetting. It is really sickening and so devastating to think of the damage done to the victims. Anger is so understandable, but anger can be a good thing, as you pointed out, a catalyst or a wake-up call for understanding and awareness. I had such a wake-up call a couple of years ago concerning a victim of abuse. It really opened my eyes. Jesus has clearly stated that ...Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Matthew 18:6

It seems that abuse is prevalent and pervasive now everywhere in society: churches, organizations, families, etc., as is the cover-up. Some people are speaking up, standing up for the victims , and demanding that churches, groups, leaders, and abusers be held accountable.

How Church Leaders Cover Up Abuse

More on #ChurchToo — Our expanded Q&A with Jimmy Hinton on sexual abuse in churches | The Christian Chronicle

Editorial: Sexual abuse is evil. Period. | The Christian Chronicle

 

[Scott C.]

The Mormon church has another big scandal going on right now...

Idea, here's how I see this. Sexual abuse is terrible and my heart goes out to victims. I believe that what Elder Scott said in the April 2008 General Conference reflects how the Church feels on the subject. Here's part of it:

Now, to the perpetrator who has shattered the life of another by abuse: Recognize that you need help with your addiction or it will destroy you. You will not overcome it by yourself. You likely need specialized professional help. I plead with you to seek to be rescued now. You likely have deceived yourself in the false, temporary security that you have successfully hidden your transgression from the civil or Church authorities. But know that the Lord Jesus Christ is completely aware of your sins. He has warned: “Whoso shall offend one of these little ones …, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.”2 Know that even without action by a victim, your act of abuse will be publicly known, for Satan will expose you, then abandon you.

Simplify your life by taking steps now to cleanse your soul from such sin and resolve the penalties they evoke. Show your desire to heal the anguish that you have caused others. Talk to your bishop or stake president. The seriousness of your acts may require you to face civil and Church discipline. But full repentance will bring the sweet relief of forgiveness, peace of conscience, and a renewed life. It will also bring relief to the abused and their families. You will be free of the weight of remorse and the accusing thoughts of what you have caused in grief and anguish in another’s life. Recognize that it is much easier to repent in this life than it will be in the next, so repent now. You will be helped when you decide to be freed from your addiction through repentance and the support of others. Be grateful that you didn’t live anciently when abusers were stoned to death without the opportunity for repentance.

I believe that almost always, a Bishop will handle abuse correctly. He will report it exactly as required by the church and by law. I've known too many bishops and been close to too many bishops to believe otherwise. Sexual abuse is repugant to God, to me, to the LDS church and to almost all church leaders. I suppose there must be a few who don't get it or who hide it, or even worse, who are pepetrators themselves.

Yes I believe the church is run by inspiration and by the power of the priesthood. But there are still humans involved and as a result things can and do go wrong. If one expects perfection from church leaders in order to stay in the church, that person will be disappointed. On the other end of the spectrum, if a church member doubts everything they hear from leaders and is cynical towards inspiration, they will lose out on the great benefits of having living oracles and representatives of Christ here on earth.

I absolutely believe and even know, really with no doubt, that I have received many callings that came from God by inspiration to my leaders. I also know that in certain callings, where it was my responsibility to recommend names, there were many times when the inspiration was clear. I very strongly feel the workings of God and the Spirit done through human beings in the church. But still, mortals are imperfect and can mess up. I know a case in a ward where I lived years ago that a man was called to lead the 14-15 year old boys. He ended up sexually abusing some of them. He was caught and went to prison. The church did it's part to turn him in. Your question is why would God inspire a Bishop to call a man to lead youth, if God knows that person is going to sexually abuse those youth. Even if there was no inspiration behind the call, why did not God intervene and inspire the bishop to not make the call? I don't have certain answers. I remember a situation in the 80's when I was a ward clerk and my bishop shared with us what was going on. He became aware that there was a father abusing his daughter in the ward, but the bishop did not know who was the father or the victim. God actually revealed the names to the Bishop and he knew who it was without a doubt. He said it was as if God had written the name on his forehead. He confronted the man, he confessed, it was reported to the authorities and dealt with.

I don't excuse anyone who would molest or who would not report molestation. It's unacceptable. It's not the norm in the LDS church. It's not what leaders teach or believe.

 

[Watchmen]

Answer the question - how would you react? Those who have not experienced this kind of thing I guess just cannot understand the level of pain and hurt involved here. I do not blame you for not understanding - I do find it sad that so many LDS are not capable of being empathetic towards victims. Cognitive dissonance? Refuse to believe that this sort of thing has and does happen? would rather stay in an imaginary bubble where the church is true and all you have to do is say a prayer to help someone? ... vs. actually comforting and helping those who have in reality been hurt?

People are more important to protect than organizations.

Do you worship your church? or do you worship g-d? Do you have faith that your church - man-made, man-led will save you, or is there some other entity that is really supposed to do the saving?

Are you willing to hold the welfare of the church above the welfare of children?

You’re post is wrong on so many levels.

1. You have no idea if I’ve experienced such abuse. You just assume I haven’t.

2. You didn’t come here looking for empathy. You came to vent.

3. You assume that I’m in denial about these things happening. That couldn’t be further from the truth. I deal with abuse cases every single day in my profession.

4. I don’t worship any church.

5. I do worship God.

6. I’m not Mormon anymore.

Any more assumptions you’d like to make? Or perhaps you should take a breather and reread my last couple posts. Maybe then you’ll understand what I was trying to convey to you.

 

[idea]

sorry for the late replies - I am jugging quite a lot right now, work more than full time, jugging kids etc. I will be back to read and think through everyone's replies, you just have to be patient with me. I do appreciate your frank and honest feedback - I know I am not the only one to go through hell, and it is good to hear from others how they have become healed.

Okay. Go right ahead and blame God if it makes you feel better. Just don't expect me to jump on your bandwagon, and don't try to imply that I am lacking in compassion simply because I don't hate God for what human beings do. I didn't hate God when 17 students were gunned down on Valentine's Day at Stoneman Douglas High School in Florida. Did you? If so, I didn't see your rant against Him at that time? Did you hate God when ou first learned about the Holocaust? If you did, you've never given any indication that you did. I went back this morning and read some of your posts from ten years ago. I feel like I'm talking to a different human being today.

you are right - I have changed. I have been broken.

I used to believe everyone had free will and could be held accountable for what they did - I no longer believe this. Mental illness is real, genetic conditions are real, I'm not sure that agency exists for everyone?

I used to believe tests and trials refined and purified those who went through them. I no longer believe this.

I used to think no one was tried beyond their limits, I used to think there was a way to escape, I used to think God comforted those going through hell - I no longer believe this.

I had touched hell before, thought I had conquered it, was prideful and thought others could conquer their hell too... I was wrong.

Outder darkness, lower kingdoms - they are all evidence that the plan does not work for most of humanity. g-d's student success rate is very low... do you honestly want to become like g-d? to give trials and tests that do not refine? to drag people past their limits of endurance, and then cast them into outer darkness? is this what heaven is? then count me out.

Experiencing pain on a new level - and I know I have still not gone through the worst of it, that so many others live with so much more pain than I do - and I can no longer justify or rationalize it, or support a g-d who allows it. It does not refine, most people are not overcoming it, we are all killed by it in the end.