Sexual abuse in Mormon church

[Jane.Doe]

I used to believe everyone had free will and could be held accountable for what they did - I no longer believe this. Mental illness is real, genetic conditions are real, I'm not sure that agency exists for everyone?

For me, one of the keys to healing and no longer being broken was acknowledging the power of accountability. Yes, environment and other factors are very real influences, but the ultimate question is: are you going to let those things rule you, or will you rule you?

The first is the course of perpetually being a victim and broken. The latter is the path to raising above things and healing.

 

[idea]

I can see good and bad in all people. That doesn't mean I ignore the responsibly a person has for their actions.
Please answer my question directly: Do you believe my abuser carries zero responsibly for what he did to me?

"Recognize that you need help with your addiction or it will destroy you. You will not overcome it by yourself."Richard G. Scott - To Heal the Shattering Consequences of Abuse - Richard G. Scott

Each case is different. I believe that in some cases - not all - but some - the abuser carries no responsibility. It is the responsibility of the church, the responsibility of friends and family to face it, and pull them out of it - because they really cannot get through it on their own. Their entrapment exists because the communities around them are not strong enough to confront the problems.

As for temple recommends....I don't think a temple recommend interview is the place to talk about someone else attempting to sexually abuse you..

I know a few "high priests" who lied through many temple recommend interviews, who were never confronted, etc. What is the point of being interviewed if the interviews are nothing but lies?

"Do not be discouraged if initially a bishop hesitates when you identify an abuser. Remember that predators are skillful at cultivating a public appearance of piety to mask their despicable acts. Pray to be guided in your efforts to receive help." - To Heal the Shattering Consequences of Abuse - Richard G. Scott ↑↑ you can say that again↑↑

Idea, here's how I see this. Sexual abuse is terrible and my heart goes out to victims. I believe that what Elder Scott said in the April 2008 General Conference reflects how the Church feels on the subject.

Thanks for sharing that talk, I had not heard it before - for anyone else who is interested, Scott nails it -
To Heal the Shattering Consequences of Abuse - Richard G. Scott

I believe that almost always, a Bishop will handle abuse correctly. He will report it exactly as required by the church and by law. I've known too many bishops and been close to too many bishops to believe otherwise. Sexual abuse is repugant to God, to me, to the LDS church and to almost all church leaders. I suppose there must be a few who don't get it or who hide it, or even worse, who are perpetrators themselves.

that the thing... I am dealing with people in leadership positions, and I do not currently trust my own bishop. that makes things even trickier doesn't it? It's just I know how common this stuff is now, I confronted him on it - he did not deny it - so I will not go to him for help. I could be wrong, but there were just too many warning flags going off...

my red flags:
- the wife is anorexic, and overly anxious about their looks
- everyone comes to know who has been going to the addiction recovery groups...
- people who talk about the other support groups and counseling they have received - you know they were in marriage groups etc. for a reason
- when sharing testimonies they use the word "believe" rather than "know", they do not know what the spirit is, they do not have the spirit with them
- they are overly familiar with internet monitoring software ...

so I confront him - and here's how confrontations go:
- often addicts will lie / deny - you have to push the evidence in their face - they will keep lieing, deny evidence - so you keep pushing the evidence - then they admit partially to what is not hidden to try and look honest again, but still deny the full extent -they justify/ rationalize , they are convinced they are not hurting anyone you see, and if you keep listening to them they will try to convince you that "love" is something different - that they are the loving ones etc. etc.

- or - if they actually feel remorse, but have not gone through the repentance process yet - they needed to be confronted, they needed someone to give them the chance to talk through it and help them start the healing process - there are tears, a long confessional, and then the process starts - problems are dealt with - great news!!

- or - if they are in recovery, they are often happy to share their recovery process, are able to be honest with where they are, can name their last temptation, have no issues talking about it, are happy to talk about it.

- or - if they are in a leadership position, and feel the need to appear "perfect" to those around them... we go back to response #1 - lie about their problem, silence, refuse to reply... and the #1 replies you get, those are the scariest ones.

Yes I believe the church is run by inspiration and by the power of the priesthood. But there are still humans involved and as a result things can and do go wrong. If one expects perfection from church leaders in order to stay in the church, that person will be disappointed. On the other end of the spectrum, if a church member doubts everything they hear from leaders and is cynical towards inspiration, they will lose out on the great benefits of having living oracles and representatives of Christ here on earth.

I have lost my ability to trust people - the eternal skeptic. I will have to get personal confirmation on anything from here on out, because I have zero faith in any human being. I blame nature, I blame genetics and environments - I do not hate anyone, but I do not have faith in or trust anyone either. It is a horrible feeling, not to have anyone you can trust.

I absolutely believe and even know, really with no doubt, that I have received many callings that came from God by inspiration to my leaders. I also know that in certain callings, where it was my responsibility to recommend names, there were many times when the inspiration was clear. I very strongly feel the workings of God and the Spirit done through human beings in the church. But still, mortals are imperfect and can mess up. I know a case in a ward where I lived years ago that a man was called to lead the 14-15 year old boys. He ended up sexually abusing some of them. He was caught and went to prison. The church did it's part to turn him in. Your question is why would God inspire a Bishop to call a man to lead youth, if God knows that person is going to sexually abuse those youth. Even if there was no inspiration behind the call, why did not God intervene and inspire the bishop to not make the call? I don't have certain answers..

What is the point of it? I can justify pain if there is a purpose - if it refines, if people learn, if there is repentance etc. etc. but when the abuser is not really at fault - they are just a slave to their life-long addiction? so repentance is not real because they are a victim themselves? and the abused - no trust, cannot handle normal relationships - hardened hearts - that is not refining. Just some natural disease - a cancer, alzheimer's, tuberculosis - some condition you have no control over that just eats you alive until you're dead, how is that supposed to refine anyone?

You’re post is wrong on so many levels.

1. You have no idea if I’ve experienced such abuse. You just assume I haven’t.

2. You didn’t come here looking for empathy. You came to vent.

3. You assume that I’m in denial about these things happening. That couldn’t be further from the truth. I deal with abuse cases every single day in my profession.

4. I don’t worship any church.

5. I do worship God.

6. I’m not Mormon anymore.

Any more assumptions you’d like to make? Or perhaps you should take a breather and reread my last couple posts. Maybe then you’ll understand what I was trying to convey to you.

So sorry Watchmen... so you left too? Life is crazy for me, I have not had time to keep up with everyone online.Yes, I did some venting, sorry about that.

For me, one of the keys to healing and no longer being broken was acknowledging the power of accountability. Yes, environment and other factors are very real influences, but the ultimate question is: are you going to let those things rule you, or will you rule you?

The first is the course of perpetually being a victim and broken. The latter is the path to raising above things and healing.

Thanks Jane.Doe. Yes, one of the techniques used for addicts - when they start feeling themselves thinking about something they have just a split second to catch the thought, and remove it before it takes ahold of them and traps them... I think this is the same for victims as well - a red flag goes off, and anxiety/depression/anger jump up - and in a split second, before it has a chance to really take hold of you, you have to stop it and try to hope that red flag was just something you imagined and not something that was real.... but then how prevalent is this now? it seems everyone I talk to has their own horror story - so perhaps a good number of those red flags are real, and I was just not educated enough to see them before? Everything is twisted, I don't know what is true anymore.

10 years ago... how pervasive is it now?
"The rising tide of this vicious, abominable sin may not have touched your life personally. Yet it is pervasive enough in the world that it may have touched someone you love. " ...
To Heal the Shattering Consequences of Abuse - Richard G. Scott

and if this is one of the trials we are all going through, what are we supposed to learn from it?

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

First the Catholics, then the Mormons, then the JW's. Sexual abuse is everywhere. It's in churches, synagogues, mosques and prayer circles throughout the world. It's in Hollywood. It's in the Armed Forces. It's in the U.S. Government -- at this highest levels. It's in the workplace. It's vile and disgusting, but NOBODY, NO GROUP OR ORGANIZATION has a monopoly on it. So get off your throne and look around. Even in your empire, Mr. Emperor of Mankind, there is filth needing to be cleaned up.

You mistake the tone of my post. I wasn't rubbing my hands with glee or gloating. It's disgusting, really, what is happening. The Church is still important to members of my family and, by extension, me. I was expressing wearied resignation that something I had been privately expecting for some time had come true. In this case I would have been more than happy to be wrong.

The fact that I accept the LDS Church is merely the latest in a line of religious organisations found to have problems like this shows I'm not trying to imply this is the preserve of any one faith group.

I hope the LDS Church handles this abuse scandal better than the RCC has handled its own. But honestly I'll be surprised if they do.

 

[Jane.Doe]

I believe that in some cases - not all - but some - the abuser carries no responsibility.

On this, you and I completely disagree. Nothing EVER excuses an abuser.

Now, saying a person has zero responsibility for their actions is a completely different thing that saying "you can't fix this by yourself". Unless you're doing to brainwash a person, a person cannot change without them wanting to. Yes, they can/need to get help, but are they choosing to help themselves too?

What is the point of it? I can justify pain if there is a purpose - if it refines, if people learn, if there is repentance etc. etc. but when the abuser is not really at fault - they are just a slave to their life-long addiction?

I stand before you as a person who killed that dragon. A person who is no longer broken, is not a slave to their environment/past, but instead a strong whole powerful woman. Did I do it alone? Heck no! But I did it: I choose to face the dragon, and to stick my sowers through it's heat. That's a decision no one else could have made for me.

I think this is the same for victims as well - a red flag goes off, and anxiety/depression/anger jump up - and in a split second, before it has a chance to really take hold of you, you have to stop it and try to hope that red flag was just something you imagined and not something that was real.... but then how prevalent is this now? it seems everyone I talk to has their own horror story - so perhaps a good number of those red flags are real, and I was just not educated enough to see them before? Everything is twisted, I don't know what is true anymore.

How to best say this... I first entered that nightmare over thirty years ago. I've been around the bush. I know countless people who've also been around the bush. Learning how to adjust to the fact that real life isn't a fairy tale... it's a process. It changes you and it doesn't all happen at once.

You seem.. very actively feeling the hurt and paralyzed by / the fear. You see shadows- constant nightmares in real life, constantly second guessing everything, not being able to trust at all. That is... I remember being there. But I learned I didn't have to stay there-- how to change myself and pull out of the constant nightmare. Again, I didn't do it alone. I would heavily recommend proffesional counseling for you, and a number of other resources.

 

[idea]

A little bit of progress:
Mormon leaders unveil new rules allowing another adult in room for interviews

so that petition is up to 50,000 signatures now? Mine is one of the signatures on it. We have already refused PPI's, require two adults to be present - this will make that less of a weird thing, so that is great.

and there will be a protest at GC on Friday over this thing?

Houston businessman Sam Young, a former LDS bishop who launched a petition drive calling for an end to sexually graphic questioning and one-on-one interviews of young Mormons by church leaders, welcomed Monday’s announcement — as far as it went.
“It’s a huge step in the right direction but does not go far enough,” Young said. “What we are calling for is that it is ‘required’ to have two adults.”

If anyone would like to sign it -
New Front Page - Protect LDS Children

https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/mult...-and-Responding-to-Abuse-attachment-final.pdf
↑↑ Another new policy - two-deep adults in every primary class - not just for men - for men and women, single females may no longer teach by themselves... there are going to be a lot of callings issued in a couple weeks when everyone comes back from GC. Hoping those extra callings are equally distributed among men and women.

When adults are teaching children or youth in Church settings, at least two responsible adults should be present. The two adults could be two men, two women, or a married couple (see Handbook 2: Administering the Church [2010], 11.8.1). Where it may not be practical to have at least two adults in a classroom, leaders should consider combining classes.

It is about time.

this is sickening -
Utah has high rates of child abuse, sex abuse of children
At a conference about preventing child abuse, it was reported that Utah ranks eighth in child abuse and first in sex abuse rates of children.

 

[dianaiad]

- when sharing testimonies they use the word "believe" rather than "know", they do not know what the spirit is, they do not have the spirit with them
.............snip everything else........

OK, idea, I understand and agree with much of what you have said, but this jumped out at me and hit me right between the eyes.

I NEVER say 'I KNOW." I always say "I believe." Does that make me a sexual predator?

Or does it simply make me honest because I understand the difference between knowledge and belief?

Nobody on this planet KNOWS that God exists, or that the Church is True...except perhaps the Prophet and I don't know about him. Knowledge is absolute; no possibility of being wrong. None.

Knowledge is what you have when you look outside, see a lovely, sunny day and by that you know that the sun was shining as usual EIGHT MINUTES AGO. You do not KNOW that it is shining right now. One day, many many centuries or millenia from now, someone will look outside to see a normal sunny day and they may believe that the sun is shining right then, but...the sun went nova four minutes before that. oops.

Knowing that God IS, or that the 'Church is true" would mean God Himself showing up and proving it to me.

Until then, it's still belief, a belief in which we put our faith.

So while I might believe the 'church is true' so completely that if I DID come to an absolute knowledge of it, my behavior wouldn't change, it's still belief, not knowledge.

......and someone who gets up in Fast and Testimony and says 'I believe,' rather than "I know," is either thinking as I do....or being very honest about having doubts.

Given that one of the things sexual predators seem to do best is hide their predilections and APPEAR to be upstanding, faithful members and leaders so that they can have access to their victims, I don't think that 'honesty' is a huge hallmark. You said so in your post, actually. Several times, I think.

So...why would such a person suddenly be honest in his 'testimony?' They lie in interviews, they lie to their families, their friends...why should they suddenly tell the truth in Fast and Testimony meeting, and thus stand out and raise suspicions?

I get a WHOLE bunch of grief over my own use of "I believe" rather than "I know," until I explain it. So I have to wonder why someone else using "I believe" rather than "I know" would raise a red flag? Frankly, I'd count that as an indication of real honesty, not a 'wait, he said "I believe!" he must be a sexual predator!'

Sorry, hot button.

 

[idea]

On this, you and I completely disagree. Nothing EVER excuses an abuser.
.

behold, I know that if ye are brought up in the way ye should go ye will not depart from it.... Wherefore, if ye are cursed, behold, I leave my blessing upon you, that the cursing may be taken from you and be answered upon the heads of your parents.

OK, idea, I understand and agree with much of what you have said, but this jumped out at me and hit me right between the eyes.

I NEVER say 'I KNOW." I always say "I believe." .

It is not just one thing that raises a red flag - it is the combination of many many things (including showing much more sympathy to the abuser than to the victims)

there was more to that "does not have the spirit" comment than I wrote.

Different people have different gifts - there are some people who know some things - I am one of the people that at least knows spirits are real - I do not know the details of how it all works out, or which faith is true, or anything more doctrinal, but I do know we are surrounded by more than our eyes can see.

That is fine if someone does not know what the spirit is, or does not yet have anything they "know" - just like it is fine if someone does not know how to play the piano, or it is fine if someone does not know how to cook - callings need to be matched to talents though. A bishop needs to be someone who has the spirit.

 

[Jane.Doe]

It is not just one thing that raises a red flag - it is the combination of many many things (including showing much more sympathy to the abuser than to the victims)

there was more to that "does not have the spirit" comment than I wrote.

Different people have different gifts - there are some people who know some things - I am one of the people that at least knows spirits are real - I do not know the details of how it all works out, or which faith is true, or anything more doctrinal, but I do know we are surrounded by more than our eyes can see.

That is fine if someone does not know what the spirit is, or does not yet have anything they "know" - just like it is fine if someone does not know how to play the piano, or it is fine if someone does not know how to cook - callings need to be matched to talents though. A bishop needs to be someone who has the spirit.

I'm a little confused here- how was this a response to my post? I see how it was a response to dianaiad's comment, but I'm not seeing the connection to mine. (Pardon me for being a little thick-skulled and needing some help).

 

[idea]

I'm a little confused here- how was this a response to my post? I see how it was a response to dianaiad's comment, but I'm not seeing the connection to mine. (Pardon me for being a little thick-skulled and needing some help).

sorry, had the wrong quote grabbed. Edited - what do you think of Lehi's blessing to Laman and Lemueul's kids in 2Ne 4, that the parents would be held responsible - not the kids - that the kids were excused and not cursed due to their upbringing? How many generations do you think this blessing traveled down? ... family history can be such fun...

 

[Jane.Doe]

sorry, had the wrong quote grabbed. Edited - what do you think of Lehi's blessing to Laman and Lemueul's kids in 2Ne 4, that the parents would be held responsible - not the kids - that the kids were excused and not cursed due to their upbringing? How many generations do you think this blessing traveled down? ... family history can be such fun...

A parent is responsible for teaching. A kid is responsible for what they do with those teachings.

Again, I don't excuse abusers or anyone else saying "they're not responsible for their actions".

 

[idea]

A parent is responsible for teaching. A kid is responsible for what they do with those teachings.

Again, I don't excuse abusers or anyone else saying "they're not responsible for their actions".

I think we might need to define "excuse"... I do not trust, I use boundaries, I am not afraid to say something when I have concerns about a situation - but I also know what addictions are, a little of the agony of someone who is unable to control themselves.

Did you listen/read the interview? quite a few interesting things in there that I agree with concerning addictions:
File:2017-Joseph L Bishop-Transcript.pdf - MormonLeaks™ Wiki


experiences change us - sometimes that change is obvious,other times it is not. One of my dearest relatives surprised everyone by cursing g-d with their dying breath... the most kind, generous, supporting, person - and they died cursing g-d. they never went to church - I knew that growing up. why did they hate g-d? I do not know all the details for that one. their beliefs came from something? somewhere? so is this loving kind life-saving person going to outer darkness? ... some think "together forever" happens only in the celestial kingdom... I'm not so sure very may of my clan are going to be ↑↑↑, so if I want to spend eternity with them then... haha.

 

[Jane.Doe]

I think we might need to define "excuse"...

I was referring to your quote here:

I believe that in some cases - not all - but some - the abuser carries no responsibility.

A person always bears responsibility for their actions. Yes, things influence (including addictions), but a person still has a choice and bears responsibility for those choices.

 

[Katzpur]

You mistake the tone of my post. I wasn't rubbing my hands with glee or gloating. It's disgusting, really, what is happening. The Church is still important to members of my family and, by extension, me. I was expressing wearied resignation that something I had been privately expecting for some time had come true. In this case I would have been more than happy to be wrong.

The fact that I accept the LDS Church is merely the latest in a line of religious organisations found to have problems like this shows I'm not trying to imply this is the preserve of any one faith group.

I hope the LDS Church handles this abuse scandal better than the RCC has handled its own. But honestly I'll be surprised if they do.

I'm glad I misunderstood the tone of your post, and I apologize for my error.

 

[Katzpur]

OK, idea, I understand and agree with much of what you have said, but this jumped out at me and hit me right between the eyes.

I NEVER say 'I KNOW." I always say "I believe." Does that make me a sexual predator?

Or does it simply make me honest because I understand the difference between knowledge and belief?

Nobody on this planet KNOWS that God exists, or that the Church is True...except perhaps the Prophet and I don't know about him. Knowledge is absolute; no possibility of being wrong. None.

Knowledge is what you have when you look outside, see a lovely, sunny day and by that you know that the sun was shining as usual EIGHT MINUTES AGO. You do not KNOW that it is shining right now. One day, many many centuries or millenia from now, someone will look outside to see a normal sunny day and they may believe that the sun is shining right then, but...the sun went nova four minutes before that. oops.

Knowing that God IS, or that the 'Church is true" would mean God Himself showing up and proving it to me.

Until then, it's still belief, a belief in which we put our faith.

So while I might believe the 'church is true' so completely that if I DID come to an absolute knowledge of it, my behavior wouldn't change, it's still belief, not knowledge.

......and someone who gets up in Fast and Testimony and says 'I believe,' rather than "I know," is either thinking as I do....or being very honest about having doubts.

Given that one of the things sexual predators seem to do best is hide their predilections and APPEAR to be upstanding, faithful members and leaders so that they can have access to their victims, I don't think that 'honesty' is a huge hallmark. You said so in your post, actually. Several times, I think.

So...why would such a person suddenly be honest in his 'testimony?' They lie in interviews, they lie to their families, their friends...why should they suddenly tell the truth in Fast and Testimony meeting, and thus stand out and raise suspicions?

I get a WHOLE bunch of grief over my own use of "I believe" rather than "I know," until I explain it. So I have to wonder why someone else using "I believe" rather than "I know" would raise a red flag? Frankly, I'd count that as an indication of real honesty, not a 'wait, he said "I believe!" he must be a sexual predator!'

Sorry, hot button.

I could not conceivably stated it better. You have said precisely what I have wanted for years to be able to say (but was afraid to do so). I remember being a small child (probably about 10 or 12 years old), and having a close friend who came from a very staunch Catholic family. I recall being in Testimony Meeting one Sunday when several of the kids in my age group stood up and said, "I know the Church is true." At that young age, I remember thinking, "But Patty would say that she knows the Catholic Church is true. How can that be? How can two people both know two contradictory things to be true? Obviously, her parents have told her that the church they attend is 'true,' just like all of my Mormon friends' parents have told them the Mormon Church is 'true'. Maybe nobody knows. Maybe everybody just believes."

By the time I was old enough to go to Seminary, things got more difficult. We used to have testimony meetings in Seminary from time to time, and I was always the only person in my class to say, "I believe" instead of "I know." I used to dread those days because I was either the only person who didn't "know" or else everybody else was lying and it was apparently entirely acceptable to do so. One day after class, I asked my Seminary teacher, "How do you know... I mean really know the Church is true? I believe it is, but I can't say, 'I know'." He asked me, "Do you love your parents?" I said, "Of course I do." He continued, "Do you know you love them or do you just believe you do?" I said, "I know I do." "Well, there you have it!" he proclaimed, as if he'd taught be some profound truth. "You know the Church is true just the same way you know you love your parents." I left Seminary that day so disappointed and disheartened. If he was going to try to tell me that recognizing an emotion as valid was the same thing as being able to say with absolute certainty that certain doctrines were God-given, he was crazy. I loved that Seminary teacher, but that was the lamest answer to a question I've ever gotten.

I taught a Relief Society lesson once and sort of tried to express what you just expressed in your post. A couple of days later, I got a rather saccharine and tremendously condescending letter in the mail from one of the sisters whose heart was apparently broken over what she perceived as my weak faith. I was so insulted! I'm nearly 70 and I still "believe"! That is nothing to be ashamed of. It's honesty, pure and simple. I don't trust people who "know" the Church is true. Mormons can be so obsessed with how spiritual they appear to everyone around them, and this is a prime example of that. So thank you for writing what you did. I appreciated it very, very much.

 

[Prestor John]

I'm disappointed Katz, I thought you would have better answers for me than that.
People who leave the church, who "attack" the church, we don't want to be attacked back - we do not want to be hated, we just want answers.

So, you want to shove, but not be shoved back?

You sound like a bully.

 

[idea]

So, you want to shove, but not be shoved back?

You sound like a bully.

Honest questions are treated as an attack by those who have no answers.

 

[idea]

@idea, do you want this thread moved out of same faith debates so that non-Mormons can participate in it?

Would you mind moving this over to the general religious debate area?

non-members, your thoughts on:

• the best ways to change policies of well-established organizations
• the problem of evil if you believe in a benevolent and powerful g-d
• the roles of organized religious groups vs. your personal non-affiliated faith
• how to best support victims, how to best deal with / support abusers
• How to best deal with the growing problem of sexual abuse, and all abuse throughout the world.

 

[Prestor John]

Honest questions are treated as an attack by those who have no answers.

Aw right. I didn't see that your attack was in quotes. My bad.

So, what makes you think that these events should reflect on the Church as a whole?

Also, what makes you expect that anyone has any answers?

 

[idea]

Aw right. I didn't see that your attack was in quotes. My bad.

So, what makes you think that these events should reflect on the Church as a whole?

There are too many of these cases to ignore, it undermines the priesthood, it undermines claims that the church is led by g-d.

Also, what makes you expect that anyone has any answers?

we'll see what is said at GC this weekend won't we...

 

[Prestor John]

There are too many of these cases to ignore, it undermines the priesthood, it undermines claims that the church is led by g-d.

I don't see how these cases undermine anything.

I don't know everything, but I have yet to see God promise that nothing bad will ever happen or that having His Priesthood takes away a man's desire for sin.

I mean, Cain had the Priesthood and look what he did with it.

Also, God allowed His Only Son to be mocked, beaten and hung on a cross.

God allows bad things to happen so the wicked can receive HIs righteous judgment.

we'll see what is said at GC this weekend won't we...

God may not act in the way you expect.

That doesn't mean He is not still leading the affairs of the Church.