Sex Work Is Legitimate, But Needs Regulation

[Meow Mix]

Content warning: Non-consent (statutory and otherwise)




Sex work should be decriminalized and regulated to protect people in the industry and to better root out despicable practices like human trafficking.

Criminalization makes sex workers (prostitutes, strippers, escorts, porn and cam actors/actresses, people adjacent to the various kinds and depths of the industry) more vulnerable to assault, rape, and even murder. The stigma can prevent victims from seeking the help of the police, work in unsafe conditions and locations, and even if law enforcement becomes involved, the victims may not be taken seriously. If anything goes to court, a sex worker may not wish to testify for fear of being identified by their real name in relation to their job. It is much harder for sex worker victims to seek justice for crimes committed against them, and violent and dangerous people know this, and abuse it.

Police tactics can also prevent sex workers from even attempting to protect themselves, using possession of condoms as evidence of prostitution (https://www.hrw.org/report/2012/07/19/sex-workers-risk/condoms-evidence-prostitution-four-us-cities).

If sex work were legal and regulated, sex workers could work in safer conditions, organize to protect their rights, have access to health care, and report crimes without fear of retribution. Police could concern themselves with actual problems like human trafficking, people too young to consent getting involved by any means, pimps, and other problems that naturally arise from the underworld that criminalization fosters and materializes.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The only thing I can think to add is it would bring STI screening.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Here in Australia, some states (eg. NSW) have moved to full decriminalisation. Others (eg. Victoria) have a licensing arrangement, basically making it legal to work in a licensed brothel, or via an exemption order, etc.

That's been in place for...I dunno...20 years I think? So there would be research on impact. Having read a little about the push for full decriminalisation, the main arguments centre around balancing sex worker safety and autonomy with a level of control over the industry.

Basically, exert too much control, you end up with an underground industry. At no point does 'control' do anything obvious to limit the amount of sex work happening.

 

[Heyo]

Content warning: Non-consent (statutory and otherwise)




Sex work should be decriminalized and regulated to protect people in the industry and to better root out despicable practices like human trafficking.

Criminalization makes sex workers (prostitutes, strippers, escorts, porn and cam actors/actresses, people adjacent to the various kinds and depths of the industry) more vulnerable to assault, rape, and even murder. The stigma can prevent victims from seeking the help of the police, work in unsafe conditions and locations, and even if law enforcement becomes involved, the victims may not be taken seriously. If anything goes to court, a sex worker may not wish to testify for fear of being identified by their real name in relation to their job. It is much harder for sex worker victims to seek justice for crimes committed against them, and violent and dangerous people know this, and abuse it.

Police tactics can also prevent sex workers from even attempting to protect themselves, using possession of condoms as evidence of prostitution (https://www.hrw.org/report/2012/07/19/sex-workers-risk/condoms-evidence-prostitution-four-us-cities).

If sex work were legal and regulated, sex workers could work in safer conditions, organize to protect their rights, have access to health care, and report crimes without fear of retribution. Police could concern themselves with actual problems like human trafficking, people too young to consent getting involved by any means, pimps, and other problems that naturally arise from the underworld that criminalization fosters and materializes.

Do you know any sex workers and do you know how they think about that?
Making sex work legal, i.e. a job like any other, comes with the benefit of having to pay taxes.
Prostitution is legal in Germany (Prostitution in Germany - Wikipedia) but "The law has been criticized as having not effectively changed the situation of the sex workers, believed to be because some workers themselves don't want to change their working conditions and contracts.[22] The German government issued a report on the law's impact in January 2007, concluding that few sex workers had taken advantage of regular work contracts and that work conditions had improved only to 35% workers.[23]"

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Do you know any sex workers and do you know how they think about that?
Making sex work legal, i.e. a job like any other, comes with the benefit of having to pay taxes.
Prostitution is legal in Germany (Prostitution in Germany - Wikipedia) but "The law has been criticized as having not effectively changed the situation of the sex workers, believed to be because some workers themselves don't want to change their working conditions and contracts.[22] The German government issued a report on the law's impact in January 2007, concluding that few sex workers had taken advantage of regular work contracts and that work conditions had improved only to 35% workers.[23]"

I mean...there are underground industries for everything, and a cash economy. I would have thought sex work would be more prone to that than almost any other industry, but the point (surely) is to provide safer options for sex workers.

In terms of your question, I don't know any prostitutes (have known strippers, but not currently) but there is research on this in Oz, because of the time which has lapsed.

Eg. https://minerva-access.unimelb.edu.au/handle/11343/38799

 

[Meow Mix]

Do you know any sex workers and do you know how they think about that?
Making sex work legal, i.e. a job like any other, comes with the benefit of having to pay taxes.
Prostitution is legal in Germany (Prostitution in Germany - Wikipedia) but "The law has been criticized as having not effectively changed the situation of the sex workers, believed to be because some workers themselves don't want to change their working conditions and contracts.[22] The German government issued a report on the law's impact in January 2007, concluding that few sex workers had taken advantage of regular work contracts and that work conditions had improved only to 35% workers.[23]"

Hmm. No, I stripped through some undergrad and still know people from that time, but if anyone was doing actual prostitution, I didn't know about it. So I guess not.

I may take the time to look into that soon, or tomorrow. It feels like doing nothing is worse than doing something; maybe it was something about the way Germany implemented things? For instance, do we know how many truly didn't want to change their conditions (were they possibly still coerced? Dangerous people still knew who they were, probably where they lived, and so on)?

 

[Meow Mix]

At a lot of strip clubs you're considered an independent contractor, not an employee (which is some bull**** unto itself). That seems like a sex work-adjacent problem that should also be looked into; but that's more about things like better ensuring a living wage, access to benefits (unemployment is a big one there), etc.

 

[Heyo]

Hmm. No, I stripped through some undergrad and still know people from that time, but if anyone was doing actual prostitution, I didn't know about it. So I guess not.

I may take the time to look into that soon, or tomorrow. It feels like doing nothing is worse than doing something; maybe it was something about the way Germany implemented things? For instance, do we know how many truly didn't want to change their conditions (were they possibly still coerced? Dangerous people still knew who they were, probably where they lived, and so on)?

It is entirely possible that the implementation of the law was botched. (Wouldn't be the first time. You know what they say about good intentions.)
But that at least tells you that just by making prostitution legal, it alone will probably not have the intended effect.
That has nothing to do with the fact that prostitution and other sex work should be legal by principal. The state should not regulate sexual morals as long as it touches consensual interactions between adults. Just don't expect too much.

 

[exchemist]

Content warning: Non-consent (statutory and otherwise)




Sex work should be decriminalized and regulated to protect people in the industry and to better root out despicable practices like human trafficking.

Criminalization makes sex workers (prostitutes, strippers, escorts, porn and cam actors/actresses, people adjacent to the various kinds and depths of the industry) more vulnerable to assault, rape, and even murder. The stigma can prevent victims from seeking the help of the police, work in unsafe conditions and locations, and even if law enforcement becomes involved, the victims may not be taken seriously. If anything goes to court, a sex worker may not wish to testify for fear of being identified by their real name in relation to their job. It is much harder for sex worker victims to seek justice for crimes committed against them, and violent and dangerous people know this, and abuse it.

Police tactics can also prevent sex workers from even attempting to protect themselves, using possession of condoms as evidence of prostitution (https://www.hrw.org/report/2012/07/19/sex-workers-risk/condoms-evidence-prostitution-four-us-cities).

If sex work were legal and regulated, sex workers could work in safer conditions, organize to protect their rights, have access to health care, and report crimes without fear of retribution. Police could concern themselves with actual problems like human trafficking, people too young to consent getting involved by any means, pimps, and other problems that naturally arise from the underworld that criminalization fosters and materializes.

The thing that makes me uneasy about this is not having any idea of what proportion of sex workers are in it of their own volition, rather than being coerced.

One reads such conflicting stories about this. On the one had you get articles asserting the rights of sex workers to be accepted as just another business, and then others wringing their hands at the huge amount of exploitation at the hands of gangs, pimps etc. Is there any information available on this question?

 

[Meow Mix]

It is entirely possible that the implementation was the law was botched. (Wouldn't be the first time. You know what they say about good intentions.)
But that at least tells you that just by making prostitution legal, it alone will probably not have the intended effect.
That has nothing to do with the fact that prostitution and other sex work should be legal by principal. The state should not regulate sexual morals as long as it touches consensual interactions between adults. Just don't expect too much.

Yeah, something tells me an effective implementation would require actual support. For instance, somehow protecting identities (due to stigma), protecting from coercive people (which compounds with problem one because they know identities, and are not afraid to use blackmail), etc. It's probably a logistical nightmare with the corruption that's already entrenched.

 

[Meow Mix]

The thing that makes me uneasy about this is not having any idea of what proportion of sex workers are in it of their own volition, rather than being coerced.

One reads such conflicting stories about this. On the one had you get articles asserting the rights of sex workers to be accepted as just another business, and then others wringing their hands at the huge amount of exploitation at the hands of gangs, pimps etc. Is there any information available on this question?

That's a great question that I'd be interested in doing more looking into before I really respond. Any real solution would have to somehow deal with coercive elements, offer outs for those that were/are coerced, and prevent future coercion.

 

[ChristineM]

In much of Europe prostitution is legal,. Associate "trades" pimping, etc not so much.

The prostitute must be registered, regular sexual health checks are mandatory and it earns tax for the country.

Unfortunately sex trafficking is still big business

 

[lewisnotmiller]

The thing that makes me uneasy about this is not having any idea of what proportion of sex workers are in it of their own volition, rather than being coerced.

One reads such conflicting stories about this. On the one had you get articles asserting the rights of sex workers to be accepted as just another business, and then others wringing their hands at the huge amount of exploitation at the hands of gangs, pimps etc. Is there any information available on this question?

I linked to a fairly small Australian study. At least it's from a reputable uni and accessible.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

That's a great question that I'd be interested in doing more looking into before I really respond. Any real solution would have to somehow deal with coercive elements, offer outs for those that were/are coerced, and prevent future coercion.

I think it's more important to work out if this is a step forwards than an ideal solution. Don't let perfect stand in the way of good, and all that.

 

[PureX]

Selling the human body for the sexual pleasure of others should be kept illegal to protect the ideal of the integrity of the gift of 'human being'. The fact that so many of you think the human body is just another commodity to be bought and sold for fun and profit only exemplifies the poisonous nature of commercialize greed and selfishness. It has already so degraded humanity in our culture that sexual slavery, so long as there is monetary profit to be gained from it, is quite acceptable.

 

[exchemist]

That's a great question that I'd be interested in doing more looking into before I really respond. Any real solution would have to somehow deal with coercive elements, offer outs for those that were/are coerced, and prevent future coercion.

I suppose the argument for legalisation would be that, as with legalisation of drugs, once it is on the level there is less opportunity for gangs to control it.

However the analogy doesn't quite work. Drugs are just a commodity like any other. Once there is a legal market in them, supply chains can be the same as for other pharmaceuticals, prices fall and the gangs can't make a margin any more. There is just no reason to go through a criminal gang, rather than going to the pharmacy or whatever controlled channel is set up.

But with people, (mainly women) hiring out their bodies, either physically or virtually, that's not a tradable commodity - most people would not want to do it. One would therefore still need a lot of legal protection to ensure that the hiring out is really being done of their own free will. But I suppose that would be easier in a legally regulated industry.

The next question would be whether, if all the coercion was eliminated, there would be enough willing participants to satisfy market demand. If not, then there would always remain an incentive for coercion to return.

 

[Meow Mix]

Selling the human body for the sexual pleasure of others should be kept illegal to protect the ideal of the integrity of the gift of 'human being'. The fact that so many of you think the human body is just another commodity to be bought and sold for fun and profit only exemplifies the poisonous nature of commercialize greed and selfishness. It has already so degraded humanity in our culture that sexual slavery, so long as there is monetary profit to be gained from it, is quite acceptable.

I can't speak for prostitution, but I'm obviously not shy about my stint as a dancer. It was a good way to earn a lot more money than I would have otherwise. Nothing about this made me feel like I was losing any self-worth or degrading myself (in fact, if people tried to do anything degrading or treat anyone with anything but respect, they were tossed down the stairs). I really don't feel like we should be telling adults what they can do with their bodies by projecting our worth evaluations onto them. What you might consider degrading, another might consider neutral, or even liberating.

I'd do it again if I were still in shape and had any time, and didn't worry about negative social fallout (by the way, because of mindsets like this. Not attacking you PureX just for expressing your opinion, but just saying). I probably wouldn't have to take any student loans. Though I'm not in my 20's anymore, ha.

While it was never for me personally, I really don't see how someone couldn't feel the same way about escorting/prostitution.

 

[Meow Mix]

I think this stigma on prostitution stems from unnecessary moralization of sex: we use these words like "degrading," but what's degrading about having sex?

Because a prostitute sells sex as a service? How is that degrading, more so than a person selling another service?

I'm a fairly promiscuous person, most of my sex is in the form of one night stands and bar pickups (though, I may have recently met someone! She and I are meeting for date 2 this weekend).

We know what we're doing when we leave. She may buy me a drink, I may buy her a drink. Is that prostitution? Is that supposed to be degrading? I really just think that people put weird hangups all over sex that don't really need to be there, and it causes nothing but misery.

 

[exchemist]

I think this stigma on prostitution stems from unnecessary moralization of sex: we use these words like "degrading," but what's degrading about having sex?

Because a prostitute sells sex as a service? How is that degrading, more so than a person selling another service?

I'm a fairly promiscuous person, most of my sex is in the form of one night stands and bar pickups (though, I may have recently met someone! She and I are meeting for date 2 this weekend).

We know what we're doing when we leave. She may buy me a drink, I may buy her a drink. Is that prostitution? Is that supposed to be degrading? I really just think that people put weird hangups all over sex that don't really need to be there, and it causes nothing but misery.

This is a complex area and something of a minefield.

On the one hand one can argue, as you are doing, that prostitution need not be intrinsically degrading to the prostitute, depending on her freedom of action and mindset. However, a punter paying for sex with a stranger, whom he may barely even talk to during the encounter, does strongly suggest that a fair degree of "objectification" is going on in his head. And we are constantly told how harmful - and sexist - such "objectification" of women is, in advertising, film, etc, how it can lead to rapey thoughts, assumptions and behaviour - Harvey Fatberg and the whole Me Too business, in fact.

So, as someone who I see is active in the Feminist sub-forum, how would you square that circle?

 

[ChristineM]

Selling the human body for the sexual pleasure of others should be kept illegal to protect the ideal of the integrity of the gift of 'human being'. The fact that so many of you think the human body is just another commodity to be bought and sold for fun and profit only exemplifies the poisonous nature of commercialize greed and selfishness. It has already so degraded humanity in our culture that sexual slavery, so long as there is monetary profit to be gained from it, is quite acceptable.

I think it rather salfish of people who put their own values on other people. Keeping prostitution illegal only points fingers, assums degredation and increases sex slavery.