Sex Work Is Legitimate, But Needs Regulation

[Twilight Hue]

I don't think we should be trying to solve one problem by creating an even worse one. Do you?

I don't think think it worsens anything.

 

[Yerda]

For @PureX and others who prefer criminalising sex work but might be open to at least understanding the perspective of those who oppose it:

Why is criminalization of sex work a human rights issue?

Criminalizing adult, voluntary, and consensual sex – including the commercial exchange of sexual services – is incompatible with the human right to personal autonomy and privacy. In short – a government should not be telling consenting adults who they can have sexual relations with and on what terms.


Criminalization exposes sex workers to abuse and exploitation by law enforcement officials, such as police officers. Human Rights Watch has documented that, in criminalized environments, police officers harass sex workers, extort bribes, and physically and verbally abuse sex workers, or even rape or coerce sex from them.


Human Rights Watch has consistently found in research across various countries that criminalization makes sex workers more vulnerable to violence, including rape, assault, and murder, by attackers who see sex workers as easy targets because they are stigmatized and unlikely to receive help from the police. Criminalization may also force sex workers to work in unsafe locations to avoid the police.


Criminalization consistently undermines sex workers’ ability to seek justice for crimes against them. Sex workers in South Africa, for example, said they did not report armed robbery or rape to the police. They said that they are afraid of being arrested because their work is illegal and that their experience with police is of being harassed or profiled and arrested, or laughed at or not taken seriously. Even when they report crimes, sex workers may not be willing to testify in court against their assailants and rapists for fear of facing sanctions or further abuse because of their work and status.


UNAIDS, public health experts, sex worker organizations, and other human rights organizations have found that criminalization of sex work also has a negative effect on sex workers’ right to health. In one example, Human Rights Watch found in a 2012 report, “Sex Workers at Risk: Condoms as Evidence of Prostitution in Four US Cities,” that police and prosecutors used a sex worker’s possession of condoms as evidence to support prostitution charges. The practice left sex workers reluctant to carry condoms for fear of arrest, forcing them to engage in sex without protection and putting them at heightened risk of contracting HIV and other sexually transmitted diseases.


Criminalization also has a negative effect on other human rights. In countries that ban sex work, sex workers are less likely to be able to organize as workers, advocate for their rights, or to work together to support and protect themselves.

From Human Rights Watch.

 

[Yerda]

And for anyone interested here is a collection of embedded articles that deal with issues we've been talking about.

Decriminalise sex work to prevent trafficking and abuse

 

[PureX]

Sex can be many things. It can be really important and special, such as between people that are actually romantic with each other. It can not be. Just like a massage.

This isn't about what it can be. It's about what should be.

 

[Meow Mix]

This isn't about what it can be. It's about what should be.

You decide that for everyone? For me? What I get to do with my body on the weekends?

 

[PureX]

And if you came across many females (or males) who told you it was their choice, would you be saying we should not allow this - their freedom of expression?

It's not there choice if I have to pay for them to pretend they want it.

 

[PureX]

Whence comes this conception that it's necessarily harm?

I have never said that there is no harm in people who have to be sex workers, I think that's very harmful. You're assuming things are always the worst case scenario.

Let me be clear: nobody should be coerced into sex work. Nobody should feel like they have to do sex work because they have no other means to survive. So when I say legalize it, I'm obviously not talking about such scenarios. That's why I say legalize it and regulate it. It should be the business of consenting, non-coerced adults.

Paying for the pretense of desire IS coercion. Why can't you understand this?

 

[Meow Mix]

Paying for the pretense of desire IS coercion. Why can't you understand this?

Because it doesn’t make sense. I’m trying to understand you, but all I’m really seeing is the argument “I really value sex as something special between romantic partners (and never anything else) and I think everyone else should see it my way too.” Am I wrong?

 

[PureX]

Ok, I agree; but as I said before: that's not what's being discussed.

Do you submit that it's impossible for someone to freely enter sex work of their own volition, without being coerced?

Let's look at why some porn actresses entered sex work:









Edit: I will add, I started stripping for pretty much many of the same reasons. It sounded fun, I knew there was a lot of money to be had, I figured it was a good way to stay in shape because I had friends that were doing pole aerobics. It was fun.

Now prostitution was never a thing I considered, stripping was as far as I felt personally comfortable. But clearly there are people that are willing and unbothered.

So you were happy to exploit others, sexually, for lots of money. I get it. Would it only be bad if you were the one being exploited sexually?

 

[PureX]

You decide that for everyone? For me? What I get to do with my body on the weekends?

It's a question that society decides. I am just offering my opinion, and why I hold it. And so far, not a single person has explained to me why having sex with strangers when you don't want to should even be considered a legitimate job.

 

[Meow Mix]

So you were happy to exploit others, sexually, for lots of money. I get it. Would it only be bad if you were the one being exploited sexually?

In what way was I exploiting people any differently than anyone else seeking any other service, PureX?

People with obvious mental problems were not allowed in or escorted out.

 

[Meow Mix]

It's a question that society decides. I am just offering my opinion, and why I hold it. And so far, not a single person has explained to me why having sex with strangers when you don't want to should even be considered a legitimate job.

Because there is demand for a service, just like why every other service job exists and is a legitimate job. Explanations have been given, but you have rejected them; but in order to reject them, you’ll have to explain why sex as a service is any different from massage or slinging drinks as a service.

Saying “sex is special and between lovers only” is not an answer.

 

[PureX]

Because it doesn’t make sense. I’m trying to understand you, but all I’m really seeing is the argument “I really value sex as something special between romantic partners (and never anything else) and I think everyone else should see it my way too.” Am I wrong?

Yes, you are wrong. I value the human right to respect, dignity, and autonomy. No one should have to have sex with anyone else when they don't want to. And the exchange of money does not magically erase that right. Nor should we as a society pretend that it does.

 

[Meow Mix]

@PureX we’ve sort of split our discussion out over multiple posts, maybe we should bring it in to one combined post here.

I’m most interested in this: your comments seem to indicate that you believe anyone seeking out sex workers means someone is being exploited: either the SW, or the patron. I want to understand this view.

In order to understand if, I have to understand what you think the salient difference is between a bachelor party coming in to tip me on stage for entertaining them and that same bachelor party ordering drinks at the bar, or tipping the DJ.

 

[PureX]

I don't think think it worsens anything.

You think making ugly people pay for sex is not making the problem worse? And not just for them, but for those who have to provide the pretense of desire?

 

[Meow Mix]

You think making ugly people pay for sex is not making the problem worse? And not just for them, but for those who have to provide the pretense of desire?

I gave lap dances to men and I’m a lesbian. Still more fun and less uncomfortable than being fake nice to snotty restaurant-goers barely containing their annoying kids. Do you consider waiting tables exploitation?

 

[Twilight Hue]

You think making ugly people pay for sex is not making the problem worse? And not just for them, but for those who have to provide the pretense of desire?

No. I think people who were denied their natural urges can find solace with such accommodations and who's to say there are not people out there who enjoy providing and receiving such services?

 

[PureX]

I gave lap dances to men and I’m a lesbian. Still more fun and less uncomfortable than being fake nice to snotty restaurant-goers barely containing their annoying kids. Do you consider waiting tables exploitation?

Yes, but to a far lesser degree. And only because it's an unnecessary service. Also, if it paid as it should, I suspect you wouldn't have minded so much.

Our society has many tasks that need to be done to keep everyone safe and cared for. And we all owe it to each other to do our share, like it or not. But greed has twisted and perverted our thinking to the point where we accept subjugation, abuse, starvation, humiliation, and even death in the almighty pursuit of money. And this sickness is destroying us. Prostitution is just another glaring example of this sickness. I am stunned that so few of us are even able to see it as sexual abuse simply because money gets paid. Like money just magically erases all criminality, all abuse and subjugation. All humiliation and emotional damage. Money makes it all acceptable.We can buy the right to abuse other humans.

Should we be allowed to murder someone if we can get them to agree to it for money? If not, then why is rape ok once we get that agreement for money? How about we make it legal to by other people's body parts? Where does the power of money to erase our humanity stop?

 

[PureX]

No. I think people who were denied their natural urges can find solace with such accommodations and who's to say there are not people out there who enjoy providing and receiving such services?

Then there's no need for the exchange of money.

 

[Mock Turtle]

It's not there choice if I have to pay for them to pretend they want it.

I think you'll find that a very arrogant belief if you came across any who saw it as their right to do whatever they wanted with their body or their lives and where such was just as much a transaction as so many others are. I can't believe any thinking person would take your position even though many of us wouldn't do such or advocate it. But I do believe in freedom of expression and where any law to stop such would be an infringement of their basic rights. How could you argue otherwise - apart from seeing sex as some sanctified activity. Try looking at our history and our related species (the bonobo) - and just discount any religious aspects.