Scientific evidence and Bible prophecies.

[Kenny]

I am curious about archeological evidence surrounding Bible prophecies. Is there any evidence that a supposed prophecy was written at a date prior to the prophesied event? or vice versa?

I would think the prophecy given by Daniel in the interpretation of Nebu's dream is an easy one to establish.

 

[joe1776]

George Bourne, 1780-1845. A Condensed Anti-Slavery Bible Argument; By a Citizen of Virginia. has a very extensive discussion which I have only skimmed. For example, chapter II starts:

THE practice of human slavery is not condemned in the Scriptures by that name, nor mentioned in any of our common law definitions by the same name. But it is condemned in the Scriptures under other names, and by descriptions, plainly and severely. There are many modern practices, such as piracy, duelling, gambling, &c., which are not condemned in the Scriptures by those names, but by descriptions. In this way, though all the crimes against God and his religion have been legalised by men in this world, they are all plainly described and condemned in the Scriptures, so that mankind are without any moral or just excuse for committing them. But that the practice of human slavery is thus condemned, is plainly proven, as follows:--

I'll take the blame for our miscommunication. When you wrote: "Abraham Lincoln and abolitionists disagreed and found anti-slavery parts of the Bible." It was your claim that Abraham Lincoln made an argument based on the Bible that I doubted

But the Bible has almost 800,000 words, much of it not clearly written. So, I wasn't doubting that a determined abolitionist could manufacture an argument to back his case.

However, this Virginian's argument opposed the judgment of most Christians. as his opening line admits, "THE belief was long nearly universal, and is yet very general throughout the Christian world, that the Scriptures do, to some extent, justify human slavery, as practised in this country.'

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Any arguments for why prophecy in the Tanakh is particularly more likely to be fulfilled cannot be substantiated because they would need to demonstrate that their special cases genuinely make prophecy more accurate and are genuinely represented by the Tanakh.

Their prophecies are timeless being a sign language that is fulfilled as an individual reaches understanding the words.

The twelve positions in the four directions.


"The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord". Isaiah


For example:
The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, as Benjamin dwells with Joseph.

Joseph and Benjamin are together in the East.

"And at the east side four thousand and five hundred: and three gates; and one gate of Joseph, one gate of Benjamin, one gate of Dan". Ezekiel.



Joseph is sheep, and Benjamin is wolf:

"Give ear, O Shepherd of Israel, thou that leadest Joseph like a flock; thou that dwellest between the cherubims, shine forth". Psalm.

"Benjamin shall ravin as a wolf: in the morning he shall devour the prey, and at night he shall divide the spoil". Genesis.


So Benjamin the wolf, and Joseph the lamb, (and Dan the horse) are dwelling together in the East.
The prophecy is real. The words are true.


As the lion is eating straw with the cattle (and the bear) in the North.

The lion of Judah, the cattle of Reuben, and the bear of Levi.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

All so called prophecies are only within the narrative and contained and fulfilled in its mythology.

Yes. Those that speak in the way of the wheel are speaking in levels.
Speaking with mythical accuracy.



As the hill is at a higher level than the valley.

Valley - Hill - Mountain


As the river is at a higher level than the sea.

Sea - River - Stream



Prophecy is the sound of the mountain stream.

Valley - Hill - Mountain
Sea - River - Stream

The weaving of words.


"And the earth shall hear the corn, and the wine, and the oil; and they shall hear Jezreel". Hosea



"Then will I make their waters deep, and cause their rivers to run like oil, saith the Lord God". Ezekiel

The river is oil.

Sea - River - Stream
Corn - Oil - Wine


"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt". Amos

The mountain is wine.

Valley - Hill - Mountain
Corn - Oil - Wine


"The pastures are clothed with flocks; the valleys also are covered over with corn; they shout for joy, they also sing". Psalm

The valley is covered with corn.

 

[Clara Tea]

I am curious about archeological evidence surrounding Bible prophecies. Is there any evidence that a supposed prophecy was written at a date prior to the prophesied event? or vice versa?
When I was doing my own research a few years ago ,i.e. googling stuff, I found that scholars would date the writing of prophetic books based on the prophecy itself. “Well, it was supposedly prophesying about this historical event, so it was written after said event.” is the line of reasoning I’ve generally seen used, as opposed to archeological evidence let’s say.
I get it, a scholar is going to approach the Bible as they would any other mythical book; with skepticism. But if one looks at the Bible with an open mind, they should entertain the possibility that the prophecies were written prior to said events. Then said person should examine the evidence from both sides, which is what I am intending on doing.
I figured I could google stuff, ooooor I can make a thread on RF and see if any of you fine individuals have opinions on the topic. I’m still gonna google, but I’ve done that before. RF is generally pretty resourceful.

WAR IN IRAQ:

Revelation (chapter of the bible) predicted the war in Iraq and made it clear that God will punish us if we do attack it.

Revelation 15 predicted 7 plagues (covid mutations and monkey pox? are among God's punishments for attacking Iraq).

Revelation made clear that two Satanic demons (dragon, and son beast--Bush and W. Bush) will attack Iraq, but that there is a different president who will be between their reigns. The administration that was, and is no more, and yet is again (to paraphrase the bible).

The bible predicted fearsome weapons, unlike the weapons of old. . . . shooting fire into the air, just as they did in the Iraq war.

The bible said that a coalition of many nations would be formed in mere hours (before modern communications, this was impossible)....yet it did happen.

The bible predicted (Revelation 17:18) that the most powerful nation on earth will attack Iraq and occupy and corrupt it. This is why the bible calls this nation the Whore of Babylon (we call it the United States).

NAZI GERMANY (WWII):

Nostradomus predicted a man named Hister would attack the world (and Hitler did).

GOD'S PROPHETS IN MODERN TIMES:

The attack of Iraq signals the end of the world and all life on it. Many preachers now believe that we are, indeed, in the end times. The Pope warned us not to attack Iraq because he didn't want the world to end, and he didn't want W. Bush to cast himself in the role of a Satanic Demon. This is why the Pope wrote a strongly worded See to the United States demanding that we do not attack Iraq. Many major nations (France, Germany, et al) saw no link to terrorism and urged us not to attack. God said "thou shalt not kill" and "turn the other cheek" and "don't bear false witness." Yet, W. Bush tried to instill fear (just as Satan does) to convince us to fight North Korea (which he dubbed part of the fictional Axis of Evil), and issued phony Orange Alerts to convinlce us to go to war.

W. Bush and Dick Cheney, also sent Wilson to Niger, to lie us into war with Niger (to take their resources). But Wilson refused to lie. So, W. Bush and Cheney outed his CIA wife, Valary Plame. This exposure resulted in the assassinations of many embedded CIA operatives abroad who had been captured and executed as spies.

God sent his modern Prophets to warn us with the exact wording and messages of Revelation, not to attack Iraq (one final warning from God). These prophets had already been among the world's best psychics. They could sense the evil in W. Bush...he was a Satanic demon from hell, and these prophets of God knew it.

 

[firedragon]

I am curious about archeological evidence surrounding Bible prophecies. Is there any evidence that a supposed prophecy was written at a date prior to the prophesied event? or vice versa?
When I was doing my own research a few years ago ,i.e. googling stuff, I found that scholars would date the writing of prophetic books based on the prophecy itself. “Well, it was supposedly prophesying about this historical event, so it was written after said event.” is the line of reasoning I’ve generally seen used, as opposed to archeological evidence let’s say.
I get it, a scholar is going to approach the Bible as they would any other mythical book; with skepticism. But if one looks at the Bible with an open mind, they should entertain the possibility that the prophecies were written prior to said events. Then said person should examine the evidence from both sides, which is what I am intending on doing.
I figured I could google stuff, ooooor I can make a thread on RF and see if any of you fine individuals have opinions on the topic. I’m still gonna google, but I’ve done that before. RF is generally pretty resourceful.

I highly doubt you would find "archeological evidence" of "prophecies". What do you mean by archeological evidence? That means it's physical evidence of what ever artefact dated prior to something coming true as prophesied. Every single book in the Bible manuscript will be dated way way after it was originally written. So that's the archeological evidence.

Also you should note that dating the Biblical library does not only rely on dating it after a so called prophecy. Some events are just mentioned not as prophecies but whats going on, but some missionary types would call it a prophecy in order to place the writer to an earlier time than the dating of the book just to make them appear closer to the said person. this happens predominantly with the New Testament and Jesus. Dating is also done considering Palaeography. Which is a field of expertise that studies ancient documents and they know which document would suit the same writing style of an already established document. Dating is also done based on the synoptic problem if you read upon quickly you will understand. Thus, dating a document without carbon dating is done, and it is valid, and is not that simple as post hoc.

If you are looking for archeological evidence of what ever prophecy, it is not a valid endeavour in my opinion because the earliest New Testament manuscript would be a scrap called P57. Thats early second century, way after Jesus. And if you are looking for the Tanakh, the oldest in what ever form would be the DSR or the Dead Sea Scrolls which has documents dated to two to three hundred years as a space, surrounding zero year, or would you call it the year of the lord?

So this is not a fair endeavour to look for archeological evidence for prophecies because all you will find are by default dated far far apart from the persons involved. Just for your record, this dating I am particularly referring to right now is carbon dating.

 

[PruePhillip]

I am curious about archeological evidence surrounding Bible prophecies. Is there any evidence that a supposed prophecy was written at a date prior to the prophesied event? or vice versa?
When I was doing my own research a few years ago ,i.e. googling stuff, I found that scholars would date the writing of prophetic books based on the prophecy itself. “Well, it was supposedly prophesying about this historical event, so it was written after said event.” is the line of reasoning I’ve generally seen used, as opposed to archeological evidence let’s say.
I get it, a scholar is going to approach the Bible as they would any other mythical book; with skepticism. But if one looks at the Bible with an open mind, they should entertain the possibility that the prophecies were written prior to said events. Then said person should examine the evidence from both sides, which is what I am intending on doing.
I figured I could google stuff, ooooor I can make a thread on RF and see if any of you fine individuals have opinions on the topic. I’m still gonna google, but I’ve done that before. RF is generally pretty resourceful.

Probably the main one is the Messianic prophecies concerning the Coming Messiah. His coming would end the Jewish nation and the Gentiles would believe in him. But in the latter days, when the Gentiles fall away, the Jews will come out of nations that were their 'graves' and 'take back with the sword' their ruined land. They would come from all corners of the earth, resurrecting their ancient land, rebuilding their cities and becoming more than a refugee state but a power all in themselves. Go back to the 1800's and such prophecies were considered hilarious by the intellectual cognescenti, even most Jews.

 

[Ella S.]

Their prophecies are timeless being a sign language that is fulfilled as an individual reaches understanding the words.

The twelve positions in the four directions.


"The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord". Isaiah


For example:
The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, as Benjamin dwells with Joseph.

Joseph and Benjamin are together in the East.

"And at the east side four thousand and five hundred: and three gates; and one gate of Joseph, one gate of Benjamin, one gate of Dan". Ezekiel.



Joseph is sheep, and Benjamin is wolf:

"Give ear, O Shepherd of Israel, thou that leadest Joseph like a flock; thou that dwellest between the cherubims, shine forth". Psalm.

"Benjamin shall ravin as a wolf: in the morning he shall devour the prey, and at night he shall divide the spoil". Genesis.


So Benjamin the wolf, and Joseph the lamb, (and Dan the horse) are dwelling together in the East.
The prophecy is real. The words are true.


As the lion is eating straw with the cattle (and the bear) in the North.

The lion of Judah, the cattle of Reuben, and the bear of Levi.

Those are claims.

 

[Truth in love]

I am curious about archeological evidence surrounding Bible prophecies. Is there any evidence that a supposed prophecy was written at a date prior to the prophesied event? or vice versa?
When I was doing my own research a few years ago ,i.e. googling stuff, I found that scholars would date the writing of prophetic books based on the prophecy itself. “Well, it was supposedly prophesying about this historical event, so it was written after said event.” is the line of reasoning I’ve generally seen used, as opposed to archeological evidence let’s say.
I get it, a scholar is going to approach the Bible as they would any other mythical book; with skepticism. But if one looks at the Bible with an open mind, they should entertain the possibility that the prophecies were written prior to said events. Then said person should examine the evidence from both sides, which is what I am intending on doing.
I figured I could google stuff, ooooor I can make a thread on RF and see if any of you fine individuals have opinions on the topic. I’m still gonna google, but I’ve done that before. RF is generally pretty resourceful.

There is very little that is clear enough to convince a dedicate non believer.

Those that are looking for evidence can find quite a lot. The hew coming back home after nearly 2000 years away for example. The phrase "None are so blind as those who choose not to see". leaps to mind.

 

[Brian2]

It sounds like you want to give Christians credit for conscience-driven moral advances that people, both religious and non-religious, supported. Did you mean that?

I was not wanting to do that but certainly Christianity changed the moral norms of all societies over time and slavery was one of those things that was a norm and economically profitable and Christian morals fought that through many Christians whose consciences had been changed through the message of Jesus.
Are you saying that the consciences of Christians were going against the message in the Bible when they used the Bible to condemn slavery.
Slavery was normal at the time of writing the books of the Bible, just as many other evil practices were normal and Christianity did not start as a movement to end all the evils in the world.

A secular Jew makes a surprising discovery about Christians and American slavery

The Religious Roots of Abolition – America in Class – resources for history & literature teachers from the National Humanities Center

Are you implying that the Pope should have given greater weight to those indirect passages than he did to the sacred text offering on-topic guidance?

No I was not wanting to imply that. I don't know the context of what the Pope said and for all I know he may have been condemning slavery in the context of what he said. I also don't know if "Divine Law" meant "the Bible" (as you seem to think it did). If it did then the Pope was most definitely wrong.

 

[joe1776]

I was not wanting to do that but certainly Christianity changed the moral norms of all societies over time and slavery was one of those things that was a norm and economically profitable and Christian morals fought that through many Christians whose consciences had been changed through the message of Jesus.
Are you saying that the consciences of Christians were going against the message in the Bible when they used the Bible to condemn slavery.
Slavery was normal at the time of writing the books of the Bible, just as many other evil practices were normal and Christianity did not start as a movement to end all the evils in the world.

A secular Jew makes a surprising discovery about Christians and American slavery

The Religious Roots of Abolition – America in Class – resources for history & literature teachers from the National Humanities Center



No I was not wanting to imply that. I don't know the context of what the Pope said and for all I know he may have been condemning slavery in the context of what he said. I also don't know if "Divine Law" meant "the Bible" (as you seem to think it did). If it did then the Pope was most definitely wrong.

Brian, we disagree on this. Here's a quick argument for you:

1. Christians are human.

2. Almost all humans own a conscience (moral intuition)

3. So, when human Christians supported the abolition of slavery, you can't jump to the conclusion that their moral position was caused by the teachings of their religion.

4. In order to determine that, you have to examine what the Bible has to say about slavery.

5. There are more that 100 references to slavery in the Bible and none condemn the practice. That's why the Catholic Pope was correct in saying that he found nothing in divine law opposed to the buying, selling or trading of slaves.

6. I conclude that conscience caused the abolition of slavery in the world and is also the cause that women and homosexuals are gaining in equal rights (also not supported by the Bible). I see religion (not just Christianity) as holding back but unable to stop humanity's conscience-driven moral progress.

 

[Brian2]

It might be the case that some of the prophecies were written before the events they prophesied, but this is a fairly extraordinary claim.

Specific prophecies that we know were made in advance almost always fail, which we have seen on numerous studies done on fortune-tellers and figures like Nostradamus. As such, we have precedent for believing that any given prophecy is probably not going to come true.

When you have a book of prophecies that have come true, then, it is reasonable to think that it was probably written after the fact. Additional evidence would be required to demonstrate that the prophecies really did come true.

So what evidence do we actually have according to archaeology? We find that the earliest copies of the texts we have which contain these prophecies do not clearly date to before the events they supposedly prophesy. We're therefore still left with our initial assessment that fulfilled prophecy is highly unlikely.

Any arguments for why prophecy in the Tanakh is particularly more likely to be fulfilled cannot be substantiated because they would need to demonstrate that their special cases genuinely make prophecy more accurate and are genuinely represented by the Tanakh. Given that we don't have any cases of fulfilled prophecy, as far as I know, these arguments don't have any leg to stand on. Thus, again, the initial assessment that fulfilled prophecy is highly unlikely still stands as the most logical conclusion.

Again, all of this can be overturned with evidence to the contrary, but we do not have any such evidence, as far as I know.

The writing times and authors of the OT have been trashed by skeptical thinking but prophecies about Jesus and the times after the writing of the Bible are certainly written before the events.
Skeptical thinking then makes further attacks on Jesus and that the stories about Jesus were made up.
Sceptics lap it all up because they want proof before faith, which is an oxymoron.
All we are left with is the events that happened after the Bible was written. These are being fulfilled just like the rest of the prophecies.

 

[Brian2]

Brian, we disagree on this. Here's a quick argument for you:

1. Christians are human.

2. Almost all humans own a conscience (moral intuition)

3. So, when human Christians supported the abolition of slavery, you can't jump to the conclusion that their moral position was caused by the teachings of their religion.

4. In order to determine that, you have to examine what the Bible has to say about slavery.

5. There are more that 100 references to slavery in the Bible and none condemn the practice. That's why the Catholic Pope was correct in saying that he found nothing in divine law opposed to the buying, selling or trading of slaves.

6. I conclude that conscience caused the abolition of slavery in the world and is also the cause that women and homosexuals are gaining in equal rights (also not supported by the Bible). I see religion (not just Christianity) as holding back but unable to stop humanity's conscience-driven moral progress.

Where does our conscience come from? If it was natural for all people of all ages to have the same conscience then slavery would have been outlawed a long time ago.
The fact is that the consciences of some were influenced by the teachings of Jesus and those teachings were spread to other Christians.
Christians are influenced by the ways of the world as much as anyone else and the way of the world was slavery until the right time came for God to spread His truth. And it is true that people cannot accept the truth until the right time.
IMO slavery is not supported by the Bible but tolerated, just as divorce is tolerated.
Anything is the ways of the world because we can justify anything logically. It takes God to enlighten people about the true equality of all people and that we should love everyone and treat them as we would like to be treated.
I saw this video on another thread and liked it and it seems appropriate here.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Those are claims.

Like claiming the sun and moon have stood still being put into fixed positions.

Signs can be verified.

"And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring". Luke.



Three signs:
Level1 - Level2 - Level3
Moon - Star - Sun


Another three signs:
Level1 - Level2 - Level3
Spear - Sword - Bow



In the prophecy the sun and moon stand still by combining two signs from the other set:

Level1 - Level2 - Level3
Moon - Star - Sun
Spear - Sword - Bow


The word Sun and word Moon are in fixed positions. Being held there by their attachment to the word Bow and the word Spear.

Just like what this prophecy said would happen.

"The sun and moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went, and at the shining of thy glittering spear". Habakkuk

Do you understand?

 

[joe1776]

Where does our conscience come from?

That's not a question that can be answered simply even though there are just two possibilities: The judgments of conscience might be the product of reason or intuition (we discern right from wrong instantly without reasoning).

It has been assumed for centuries that the judgments of conscience were the product of reason. Only David Hume and a few other philosophers supported the intuition hypothesis. However, over the past 25 years, social scientists are supporting the intuition explanation.

Humans are born with a hard-wired morality: a sense of good and evil is bred in the bone. I know this claim might sound outlandish, but it's supported now by research in several laboratories --- Paul bloom, Yale psychologist.

Some Christian faiths regard conscience as the Voice of God -- which implies the intuition hypothesis. But then they feel the obligation to inform the consciences of their flock on moral matters, an act relying on the premise that the judgments of conscience are the product of reason. I can't make sense of that. Why does the Voice of God need to be informed by the church?

 

[Brian2]

That's not a question that can be answered simply even though there are just two possibilities: The judgments of conscience might be the product of reason or intuition (we discern right from wrong instantly without reasoning).

It has been assumed for centuries that the judgments of conscience were the product of reason. Only David Hume and a few other philosophers supported the intuition hypothesis. However, over the past 25 years, social scientists are supporting the intuition explanation.

Humans are born with a hard-wired morality: a sense of good and evil is bred in the bone. I know this claim might sound outlandish, but it's supported now by research in several laboratories --- Paul bloom, Yale psychologist.

Some Christian faiths regard conscience as the Voice of God -- which implies the intuition hypothesis. But then they feel the obligation to inform the conscience on moral matters, an act relying on the premise that the judgments of conscience are the product of reason. I can't make sense of that. Why does the Voice of God need to be informed by the church?

How about the eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Sort of like the intuition thing but with some metaphysics thrown in.
Us humans were not ready for that knowledge however and we can get confused easily and our own desires can come into play when we start thinking about things too much, and we may be justifying something that is wrong.
This might explain the church's considered teachings about morality which can clearly trump our justifications but which of course can be rigid and not keep up to date (not that God's will goes out of date but the ideas of humans about God's will can be upgraded by God) So we have the Bible also which can give us council about certain things even though in the end for a Christian it is a matter of conscience imo and conscience informed by as much as possible including God's Spirit.

 

[blü 2]

I am curious about archeological evidence surrounding Bible prophecies. Is there any evidence that a supposed prophecy was written at a date prior to the prophesied event? or vice versa?
When I was doing my own research a few years ago ,i.e. googling stuff, I found that scholars would date the writing of prophetic books based on the prophecy itself. “Well, it was supposedly prophesying about this historical event, so it was written after said event.” is the line of reasoning I’ve generally seen used, as opposed to archeological evidence let’s say.
I get it, a scholar is going to approach the Bible as they would any other mythical book; with skepticism. But if one looks at the Bible with an open mind, they should entertain the possibility that the prophecies were written prior to said events. Then said person should examine the evidence from both sides, which is what I am intending on doing.
I figured I could google stuff, ooooor I can make a thread on RF and see if any of you fine individuals have opinions on the topic. I’m still gonna google, but I’ve done that before. RF is generally pretty resourceful.

On various occasions in the past I've asked those who support the reality of prophecies to provide me with an example from anywhere whose making by a particular person at a particular time and place is so certain, and whose terms are so specific and detailed, and whose subject is so distant, unusual and distinct, and whose fulfillment so exactly accords with the recipe, that even a skeptic would have to take notice.

Nothing so far. (The predictions about Israel are popular, but they're the result of Jewish politics since the end of the 19th century, where the 'prophecies' were used as part of the sloganeering to sell the idea politically. That sounds like manufacturing the situation rather than any ancient supernatural foreknowledge.)

 

[Brian2]

On various occasions in the past I've asked those who support the reality of prophecies to provide me with an example from anywhere whose making by a particular person at a particular time and place is so certain, and whose terms are so specific and detailed, and whose subject is so distant, unusual and distinct, and whose fulfillment so exactly accords with the recipe, that even a skeptic would have to take notice.

Nothing so far. (The predictions about Israel are popular, but they're the result of Jewish politics since the end of the 19th century, where the 'prophecies' were used as part of the sloganeering to sell the idea politically. That sounds like manufacturing the situation rather than any ancient supernatural foreknowledge.)

It is interesting that the fulfilling prophecies about Israel are so easily dismissed.
Prophecies given and prophecies fulfilled thrown out the window.
That reminds me of the fulfilled prophecies about Jesus, reported by those who saw the fulfilment, being dismissed by people and a thousand reasons being given why they can't be true.

 

[blü 2]

It is interesting that the fulfilling prophecies about Israel are so easily dismissed.
Prophecies given and prophecies fulfilled thrown out the window.
That reminds me of the fulfilled prophecies about Jesus, reported by those who saw the fulfilment, being dismissed by people and a thousand reasons being given why they can't be true.

It can be true.

But there's NO reason to think that it was supernaturally foreseen.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary demonstration, and there's none for the Israel matter. For example, no year was specified (hence all those dingbat sums one comes across at times), no century was specified, no hint that it would be regained from followers of the second largest Abrahamic religion via the intervention of the largest Abrahamic religion. Had it got all those things right,and if the propaganda aspect and the politics could be ignored, then maybe we'd have something interesting to talk about,

 

[joe1776]

How about the eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Sort of like the intuition thing but with some metaphysics thrown in.
Us humans were not ready for that knowledge however and we can get confused easily and our own desires can come into play when we start thinking about things too much, and we may be justifying something that is wrong.
This might explain the church's considered teachings about morality which can clearly trump our justifications but which of course can be rigid and not keep up to date (not that God's will goes out of date but the ideas of humans about God's will can be upgraded by God) So we have the Bible also which can give us council about certain things even though in the end for a Christian it is a matter of conscience imo and conscience informed by as much as possible including God's Spirit.

Since I'm not a Christian, your ideas and mine are in conflict on moral guidance.

Since I have no religion, I can simply let conscience be my guide -- my only moral authority. If a Creator exists (and I do allow that possibility), I regard conscience as its simple, universal tool for moral guidance -- one that doesn't rely on reasoning from the translations of now obsolete languages.

For example, if given the facts of a killing. Conscience instantly informs me whether it is a wrongful act. The pain function of my brain signals me that the act is wrong. If I don't feel that, I assume the act is justified.

If I were a Christian, there's the commandment on killing to consider. If the commandment is taken as a general rule -- that's no help at all because the specific case I'm considering might be an exception.

If I were to take the commandment as an absolute rule -- killing is always wrong, that interpretation would conflict with conscience in a clear case of justifiable self-defense.

I reject the Bible as a moral authority because I can't imagine why a wise Creator would give us two sources of moral guidance that sometimes are in conflict.