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Scientific evidence and Bible prophecies.

an anarchist

Your local anarchist.
I am curious about archeological evidence surrounding Bible prophecies. Is there any evidence that a supposed prophecy was written at a date prior to the prophesied event? or vice versa?
When I was doing my own research a few years ago ,i.e. googling stuff, I found that scholars would date the writing of prophetic books based on the prophecy itself. “Well, it was supposedly prophesying about this historical event, so it was written after said event.” is the line of reasoning I’ve generally seen used, as opposed to archeological evidence let’s say.
I get it, a scholar is going to approach the Bible as they would any other mythical book; with skepticism. But if one looks at the Bible with an open mind, they should entertain the possibility that the prophecies were written prior to said events. Then said person should examine the evidence from both sides, which is what I am intending on doing.
I figured I could google stuff, ooooor I can make a thread on RF and see if any of you fine individuals have opinions on the topic. I’m still gonna google, but I’ve done that before. RF is generally pretty resourceful.
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
I am curious about archeological evidence surrounding Bible prophecies. Is there any evidence that a supposed prophecy was written at a date prior to the prophesied event? or vice versa?
When I was doing my own research a few years ago ,i.e. googling stuff, I found that scholars would date the writing of prophetic books based on the prophecy itself. “Well, it was supposedly prophesying about this historical event, so it was written after said event.” is the line of reasoning I’ve generally seen used, as opposed to archeological evidence let’s say.
I get it, a scholar is going to approach the Bible as they would any other mythical book; with skepticism. But if one looks at the Bible with an open mind, they should entertain the possibility that the prophecies were written prior to said events. Then said person should examine the evidence from both sides, which is what I am intending on doing.
I figured I could google stuff, ooooor I can make a thread on RF and see if any of you fine individuals have opinions on the topic. I’m still gonna google, but I’ve done that before. RF is generally pretty resourceful.
That isn't it. The books of the bible themselves point to this. For example the so-called prophecies are written in poetic form. You're supposed to know from reading them that they are poems. Job is all poetry, too. It is only your choice to decide that these are meant to be taken as proofs or as predictions. The style of writing does not demand they be taken any other way than the way these scholars have taken them. Also these are people who spend their lives studying the texts, doing the work to learn arcane knowledge and find facts. Don't be quick to dismiss them as bad actors.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
...
I figured I could google stuff, ooooor I can make a thread on RF and see if any of you fine individuals have opinions on the topic....
Some years ago, I used the approach you are considering to test the Christian Bible as a moral authority. The event I studied was the abolition of slavery which took place over more than three thousand years (most of it from 1700 to 2000). There are more than one hundred references to slavery in the Bible, some advised that slaves should be treated well, but none condemned the practice.

I think it was Pope Pius IX in 1866 who advised his large flock that he had found nothing in "Divine Law," (his Bible) opposed to the buying, selling and trading of slaves. He was correct about the Bible's position. However, it's my understanding that Catholics consider Conscience as "The Voice of God" and place its guidance above the teaching of the Church. I wonder why the pope and his bishops didn't consult their conscience on the issue.

IMO, the moral intuition we humans refer to as "conscience" has moved us to abolish the legal practice of slavery. It is now moving us to give women and homosexuals equality, educate the children of the poor, and many other moral advances that were not among the Bible's prophecies.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
That isn't it. The books of the bible themselves point to this. For example the so-called prophecies are written in poetic form. You're supposed to know from reading them that they are poems. Job is all poetry, too. It is only your choice to decide that these are meant to be taken as proofs or as predictions. The style of writing does not demand they be taken any other way than the way these scholars have taken them.
The fact that something is (or is not) expressed as poetry seems irrelevant to the question raised in OP.
Also these are people who spend their lives studying the texts, doing the work to learn arcane knowledge and find facts. Don't be quick to dismiss them as bad actors.
Agreed.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Some years ago, I used the approach you are considering to test the Christian Bible as a moral authority. The event I studied was the abolition of slavery which took place over more than three thousand years (most of it from 1700 to 2000). There are more than one hundred references to slavery in the Bible, some advised that slaves should be treated well, but none condemned the practice.

I think it was Pope Pius IX in 1866 who advised his large flock that he had found nothing in "Divine Law," (his Bible) opposed to the buying, selling and trading of slaves. He was correct about the Bible's position. However, it's my understanding that Catholics consider Conscience as "The Voice of God" and place its guidance above the teaching of the Church. I wonder why the pope and his bishops didn't consult their conscience on the issue.

IMO, the moral intuition we humans refer to as "conscience" has moved us to abolish the legal practice of slavery. It is now moving us to give women and homosexuals equality, educate the children of the poor, and many other moral advances that were not among the Bible's prophecies.

Nevertheless it was Christians who pushed for the abolition of slavery and were at the forefront of education of the poor.
The Pope may have been right about the Bible speaking directly against slavery but the Bible does speak indirectly with the insistence that we are equal as humans in the eyes of God and that we are to love all people, including our servants and, at that time of history, slaves, and to treat them well.
This seems to allow for certain sorts of slavery, but not imo, the taking of free people and forcing them into slavery.
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
I am curious about archeological evidence surrounding Bible prophecies. Is there any evidence that a supposed prophecy was written at a date prior to the prophesied event? or vice versa?
When I was doing my own research a few years ago ,i.e. googling stuff, I found that scholars would date the writing of prophetic books based on the prophecy itself. “Well, it was supposedly prophesying about this historical event, so it was written after said event.” is the line of reasoning I’ve generally seen used, as opposed to archeological evidence let’s say.
I get it, a scholar is going to approach the Bible as they would any other mythical book; with skepticism. But if one looks at the Bible with an open mind, they should entertain the possibility that the prophecies were written prior to said events. Then said person should examine the evidence from both sides, which is what I am intending on doing.
I figured I could google stuff, ooooor I can make a thread on RF and see if any of you fine individuals have opinions on the topic. I’m still gonna google, but I’ve done that before. RF is generally pretty resourceful.
Opening Post represents the contention that if the book Jeremiah predicts something which for us is historical then it must prove Jeremiah is a divine tool for proving and predicting things. Anyone can guess at future events. It proves nothing, but it seems to be the contention of the OP that it does matter and that it should matter to us.

What is different is someone who can promise to do something and make it happen. That is a divine power. If you see that in Jeremiah then you are on to something, but successfully predicting things is not helpful. If 100 people write predictions and you only keep the books of those who guess correctly, you still haven't got people who can reliably predict anything. That is guessing, and the writers of scripture know this. They also say not to take the word of anyone just because they guess the future. Guessing futures is a common trick people use to get followers. It has no value in any way other than that of gambling. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
]
Nevertheless it was Christians who pushed for the abolition of slavery and were at the forefront of education of the poor.
It sounds like you want to give Christians credit for conscience-driven moral advances that people, both religious and non-religious, supported. Did you mean that?

The Pope may have been right about the Bible speaking directly against slavery but the Bible does speak indirectly with the insistence that we are equal as humans in the eyes of God and that we are to love all people, including our servants and, at that time of history, slaves, and to treat them well.This seems to allow for certain sorts of slavery, but not imo, the taking of free people and forcing them into slavery.

Are you implying that the Pope should have given greater weight to those indirect passages than he did to the sacred text offering on-topic guidance?
 
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Ella S.

Dispassionate Goth
It might be the case that some of the prophecies were written before the events they prophesied, but this is a fairly extraordinary claim.

Specific prophecies that we know were made in advance almost always fail, which we have seen on numerous studies done on fortune-tellers and figures like Nostradamus. As such, we have precedent for believing that any given prophecy is probably not going to come true.

When you have a book of prophecies that have come true, then, it is reasonable to think that it was probably written after the fact. Additional evidence would be required to demonstrate that the prophecies really did come true.

So what evidence do we actually have according to archaeology? We find that the earliest copies of the texts we have which contain these prophecies do not clearly date to before the events they supposedly prophesy. We're therefore still left with our initial assessment that fulfilled prophecy is highly unlikely.

Any arguments for why prophecy in the Tanakh is particularly more likely to be fulfilled cannot be substantiated because they would need to demonstrate that their special cases genuinely make prophecy more accurate and are genuinely represented by the Tanakh. Given that we don't have any cases of fulfilled prophecy, as far as I know, these arguments don't have any leg to stand on. Thus, again, the initial assessment that fulfilled prophecy is highly unlikely still stands as the most logical conclusion.

Again, all of this can be overturned with evidence to the contrary, but we do not have any such evidence, as far as I know.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
I think it was Pope Pius IX in 1866 who advised his large flock that he had found nothing in "Divine Law," (his Bible) opposed to the buying, selling and trading of slaves. He was correct about the Bible's position.

Abraham Lincoln and abolitionists disagreed and found anti-slavery parts of the Bible.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
The problem with reading today's Bible or other scriptures is that there's no strong historical evidence that what is there existed as historical fact before the Bible was written with one gigantic exception: Revelation.

However one interprets Revelation, it's clearly something that was written many centuries ago and has not come to pass yet (although an argument can be made that it's started).
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
IBut if one looks at the Bible with an open mind, they should entertain the possibility that the prophecies were written prior to said events. Then said person should examine the evidence from both sides, which is what I am intending on doing.
What evidence might that be? Surely you can recall something from when you were "doing [your] own research a few years ago ,i.e. googling stuff."

Perhaps you could offer an example in which "the evidence from both sides" is available for evaluation.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
I am curious about archeological evidence surrounding Bible prophecies. Is there any evidence that a supposed prophecy was written at a date prior to the prophesied event? or vice versa?
When I was doing my own research a few years ago ,i.e. googling stuff, I found that scholars would date the writing of prophetic books based on the prophecy itself. “Well, it was supposedly prophesying about this historical event, so it was written after said event.” is the line of reasoning I’ve generally seen used, as opposed to archeological evidence let’s say.
I get it, a scholar is going to approach the Bible as they would any other mythical book; with skepticism. But if one looks at the Bible with an open mind, they should entertain the possibility that the prophecies were written prior to said events. Then said person should examine the evidence from both sides, which is what I am intending on doing.
I figured I could google stuff, ooooor I can make a thread on RF and see if any of you fine individuals have opinions on the topic. I’m still gonna google, but I’ve done that before. RF is generally pretty resourceful.
There are none.

All so called prophecies are only within the narrative and contained and fulfilled in its mythology.
 

Vee

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I am curious about archeological evidence surrounding Bible prophecies. Is there any evidence that a supposed prophecy was written at a date prior to the prophesied event? or vice versa?
When I was doing my own research a few years ago ,i.e. googling stuff, I found that scholars would date the writing of prophetic books based on the prophecy itself. “Well, it was supposedly prophesying about this historical event, so it was written after said event.” is the line of reasoning I’ve generally seen used, as opposed to archeological evidence let’s say.
I get it, a scholar is going to approach the Bible as they would any other mythical book; with skepticism. But if one looks at the Bible with an open mind, they should entertain the possibility that the prophecies were written prior to said events. Then said person should examine the evidence from both sides, which is what I am intending on doing.
I figured I could google stuff, ooooor I can make a thread on RF and see if any of you fine individuals have opinions on the topic. I’m still gonna google, but I’ve done that before. RF is generally pretty resourceful.

Over the years archeologists have found many things that confirm locations and events mentioned in the Bible.
For example, the Bible states that in the time of Nehemiah, Tyrians who lived in Jerusalem “were bringing in fish and all kinds of merchandise.” Archaeologists have discovered Phoenician goods in Israel so that confirms trading between the two nations.
Another one: according to the book of Daniel, the last ruler in Babylon before it fell to the Persians was named Belshazzar. (Dan. 5:1-30) Since no one had found a mention of Belshazzar outside the Bible, some assumed the Bible was wrong. But during the 19th century, a number of small cylinders inscribed in cuneiform language were discovered in some ruins in Iraq. They included a prayer for the health of Belshazzar, the eldest son of Nabonidus.
But your question is about prophecies, do you have anything specific in mind?
One I can think off is when Isaiah declared that Babylon would be overthrown and later become uninhabited. (Isa. 13:17-20) He even said this would be done by a man named Cyrus and that the city gates would be left open. (Isa. 44:27–45:1.) It is estimated that Isaiah lived in the 8th century BCE, and those events happened almost 200 years later. People kept living in Babylon afterwards, but eventually it became deserted and it remains in ruins until today just like Isaiah said.
In what comes to prophecies, I prefer to look at the current ones. For example, Revelation mentions four horsemen. One represents war and he's followed by another one, who represents famine.
Rev 6: 5,6 talks about a time when food would be rationed and sold at exorbitant prices. (I saw a black horse, and its rider had a balance scale in one hand. I heard what sounded like a voice . . . It said, ‘A quart of wheat will cost you a whole day’s wages! Three quarts of barley will cost you a day’s wages too.) Rings a bell?
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Over the years archeologists have found many things that confirm locations and events mentioned in the Bible.
Over the years historians, sociologists, meteorologists, and others, have found many things that confirm references in Wizard of Oz, none of which warrant believing in Munchkins or Witches.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
What were those parts? Can you quote them or provide a link?

George Bourne, 1780-1845. A Condensed Anti-Slavery Bible Argument; By a Citizen of Virginia. has a very extensive discussion which I have only skimmed. For example, chapter II starts:

THE practice of human slavery is not condemned in the Scriptures by that name, nor mentioned in any of our common law definitions by the same name. But it is condemned in the Scriptures under other names, and by descriptions, plainly and severely. There are many modern practices, such as piracy, duelling, gambling, &c., which are not condemned in the Scriptures by those names, but by descriptions. In this way, though all the crimes against God and his religion have been legalised by men in this world, they are all plainly described and condemned in the Scriptures, so that mankind are without any moral or just excuse for committing them. But that the practice of human slavery is thus condemned, is plainly proven, as follows:--
 

gnostic

The Lost One
For example, the Bible states that in the time of Nehemiah, Tyrians who lived in Jerusalem “were bringing in fish and all kinds of merchandise.” Archaeologists have discovered Phoenician goods in Israel so that confirms trading between the two nations.

Sorry, but isn’t Nehemiah from the 5th century BCE, written in that century?

The city of Tyre have about around since the early 2nd millennium BCE, and have been a trading seafaring city as long as it had existed, so nothing written about Tyre in the book of Nehemiah is revealing or new news.

Tyre was originally constructed on island, long before the other part of Tyre was built on the mainland. Tyre have been centuries before the Israelite kingdoms.

Tyre was also the Tyrian Phoenicians that colonized northwest Africa, founding another trading city, Carthage, that played a large role of 1st millennium BCE politics of western Mediterranean, especially Spain and Sicily, often competing against Greek cities in Spain and Sicily, in which a number of cities were founded during colonization.

So lots of Tyrian goods were found in western Mediterranean too, centuries before Nehemiah.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Another one: according to the book of Daniel, the last ruler in Babylon before it fell to the Persians was named Belshazzar. (Dan. 5:1-30)
While Belshazzar may have existed historically, the book of Daniel is wrong about being the last ruler of Babylon and all of Babylonia.

Belshazzar’s father, Nabonidus was still alive and ruling Babylonia at that time. Belshazzar was nothing more than a prince; at best, he was merely “governor” or “regent” if his father was active outside of the capital, eg military campaign against Cyrus’ army, Belshazzar was not king of Babylon, and certainly wasn’t emperor of Neo-Babylonian Empire.

Belshazzar was no king as Daniel 5:1 stated.

Plus, another thing Daniel (book, not the fictional character of the book) got wrong, was referring to Belshazzar as the “son of Nebuchadnezzar”, eg Daniel 5:2, 5:11 & 5:18.

As I said earlier, Nabonidus was Belshazzar’s father, not Nebuchadnezzar.

There is no contemporary sources that say who Belshazzar’s mother was, but a 5th century BCE Greek historian, Herodotus called her Nitocris, a possible daughter of Nebuchadnezzar, which would make Nebuchadnezzar as his grandfather, but the name Nitocris don’t appear in Babylonian sources (Nabonidus Chronicle) and Persian sources (Cyrus Cylinder, and the Verse Account Of Nabonidus).

Those 3 sources I have mentioned above, are the only times, Belshazzar were mentioned in contemporary sources, and all 3 sources only stated Nabonidus as his father, never Nebuchadnezzar.

We actually have the names of 6 sons of Nebuchadnezzar, and 3 daughters.

None of his sons were named Belshazzar.

Only Amel-Marduk survived to ruled Chaldean empire for 2 years before he was assassinated by his brother-in-law Neriglissar in 560 BCE.

Neriglissar was married to Kashsaya, one of Nebuchadnezzar’s 3 daughters, and they had a son named Labashi-Marduk (hence Nebuchadnezzar’s grandson), who succeeded Neriglissar in 556 BCE, but Labashi-Marduk’s reign lasted less than a year, before he was assassinated by Nabonidus.

As I said, we don’t know who’s Belshazzar’s mother was, as the other daughters of Nebuchadnezzar, Innin-etirat and Ba’u-asitu, we don’t have much information about any of them, but none of them were said to be married to Nabonidus, or being mother to Belshazzar.

All we know, is that Nebuchadnezzar was never Belshazzar’s father, as the book of Daniel claimed.

The 6th century BCE sources from Babylonia and Persia indicated that not only the book of Daniel was wrong, Daniel wasn’t even a contemporary source. Daniel was most likely a fiction written in the 2nd century BCE, as we have no earlier versions of Daniel before the 2nd century BCE.

That Daniel make no mentions of Amel-Marduk, Nebuchadnezzar’s real son and successor, and no mention of Nabonidus, I would have to conclude Daniel to be unreliable of Chaldean Babylonia history.
 
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