Salvation by Works

[Tiberius]

You used Revelation 2:23; "And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works."

Give what according to their works and what works? Please give a direct scriptural reference please. Thanks, Sandy

Does it matter what is given? The point is that the determination is made by examining the works of people.

 

[sojourner]

I agree completely.

I don't believe we do good works in order to win a ticket to heaven, either. In fact, to put it that way really cheapens Christ's grace, in my opinion.

But, Sojourner, I have heard you state on many occasions that every single solitary person who has ever lived will ultimately be saved. (And you probably know by now that my own belief doesn't differ from yours all that much. I believe that the vast, vast majority of all people will be.) But there is a pretty significant flaw in your statement that "we do good works because, through grace, we are good." If all mankind is saved through grace, why, through that same grace, are all men not good?

I would agree that anyone who is truly converted to the gospel of Jesus Christ will have experienced a change of heart as a result of that conversion, and will have a sincere desire to do good. But all will continue to be tempted, and some will not resist. If being "good" is a natural consequence of grace, why do so many Christians continue to struggle to live the way they know in their hearts they should?

answering your question in the red type:
Because of the Christ-event, our being is in a state of grace. However, not everyone realizes that. (Many Christians don't realize that -- they're forever afraid of "backsliding" -- that God has taken God's grace away from them, because of something they did.) Those who do realize it, do good works from the basis of their life in grace. Those who don't realize it, continue to either "try" to "get saved," or else they do evil works from a basis of not realizing their "grace-full" nature.

We are told to grow in grace. We do that by living into the nature of grace. We do that by acting in the world, in such a way that the life of grace is shown forth.

 

[sojourner]

Well, I was going to answer here (as in my opinion sola fide is one of the most dangerous heresies any Christian group has ever come up with, but I'm sure you all realise that by now), but I find my answers would be superfluous. You're all doing such a good job that I feel there's littke that I can add. I will take part if I notice anything I can contribute, though.

James

Please contribute the Orthodox view on the place of actions in the salvific process.
Thanks

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Obey his commandments. Surely you don't need to have me tell you what Jesus' commandments were. (I'll be happy to do so if that's what you want, but it strikes me as unnecessary.)

Where is the reference that this "obey" in Heb. 5:9 directly refers to any specific commandments?Was it "all" commandments? A few? One specific commandment?

To be justified means to be declared free from guilt or blame. Abraham had always had faith in God, but this faith was tested when he was asked to sacrifice his own son to God. The fact that he was willing to obey this almost inconceivably difficult commandment was proof that his faith was real and that he was not merely paying lip service to God.

This doesnt make sense. I'll substitute your definition into the context. "Was not Abraham our father [declared free from guilt or blame] by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Abraham did exactly what God told him to do. What was he then "declared free from guilt or blame" from?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Does it matter what is given? The point is that the determination is made by examining the works of people.

Ummmm....yes! Since the topic is salvation that includes works I would suppose that a reference to what is given would be pertinent.

But that may just be me.

 

[Tiberius]

Ummmm....yes! Since the topic is salvation that includes works I would suppose that a reference to what is given would be pertinent.

But that may just be me.

So what? Isn't it a double standard if God uses one method to judge us for salvation, but another method for everything else?

If works is good enough to judge our salvation, why isn't it good enough for other things.

In any case, I fear this is clouding the issue, as the other quotes I posted say that salvation is indeed judged by works. If you are to say that the one quote in question says otherwise, you will also need to say why the other quotes are wrong.

 

[NoahideHiker]

When I was a Christian the book of James was always my favorite one because it gave life long advice about how we need to balance our lives and our relationship with Hashem. Even now that I follow Torah and have a greater understanding of Judaism James advice still rings true.

 

[Katzpur]

answering your question in the red type:
Because of the Christ-event, our being is in a state of grace. However, not everyone realizes that. (Many Christians don't realize that -- they're forever afraid of "backsliding" -- that God has taken God's grace away from them, because of something they did.) Those who do realize it, do good works from the basis of their life in grace. Those who don't realize it, continue to either "try" to "get saved," or else they do evil works from a basis of not realizing their "grace-full" nature.

But that doesn't explain the attitude of certain Christians who insist that they are "saved now and forever," regardless of the choices they may make down the road. They aren't afraid of backsliding because they don't think it can happen, and yet they are still the most disagreeable, judgmental people imaginable. While these people would most certainly claim to realize the state of grace in which they find themselves, the complete lack of love and charity towards their fellow men speaks far more loudly than their pious words.

We are told to grow in grace. We do that by living into the nature of grace. We do that by acting in the world, in such a way that the life of grace is shown forth.

I couldn't agree more.

 

[Katzpur]

Well, I was going to answer here (as in my opinion sola fide is one of the most dangerous heresies any Christian group has ever come up with, but I'm sure you all realise that by now), but I find my answers would be superfluous. You're all doing such a good job that I feel there's littke that I can add. I will take part if I notice anything I can contribute, though.

James

James,

I, for one, do not (as you surely know) believe in Sola Scriptura. But this particular topic is one on which you and I would probably interpret the scriptures in pretty much the same way. I would like very much to hear the Orthodox position on the subject, whether you appeal to the scriptures alone to support your belief or to holy tradition.

 

[Katzpur]

Where is the reference that this "obey" in Heb. 5:9 directly refers to any specific commandments?Was it "all" commandments? A few? One specific commandment?

I don't think it refers to any one specific commandment, but to all of the commandments. While we will certainly need to repeat the repentence process time and time again throughout our lives, the fact that we are willing to continually humble ourselves and do our best to "be perfect, even as [our] Father which is in Heaven is perfect," is proof that our hearts are in the right place.

This doesnt make sense. I'll substitute your definition into the context. "Was not Abraham our father [declared free from guilt or blame] by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Abraham did exactly what God told him to do. What was he then "declared free from guilt or blame" from?

Again, you seem to be implying that I think Abraham was forgiven of one particular sin through his willingness to do as God had told him to do in this specific instance. I am not interpreting this passage in that way at all. All I am saying is that Abraham showed, by his obedience, that he truly did love God as much as He claimed to. By his works (i.e. his obedience to a specific commandment, in this particular example -- which would have been, I'm sure you'll agree, an incredibly difficult one for any loving parent to obey), the faith which he professed was made complete and perfect. And this perfect faith would be sufficient for God's grace to be operative in his life.

 

[James the Persian]

Kat and Sojournor,

I'm not sure what I can add that you two haven't already come up with. We consider that people are saved by the grace of God (nobody can make themselves worthy of salvation) but that we must have faith is Him and that faith without works is dead, as James tells us. If you really believe in and love God then you will do as He commands. Merely saying 'I believe in God' is most certainly not enough. As St. Maximos the Confessor said 'Theology without praxis is the theology of demons'. Sola fide, especially when taken to the extreme of OSAS, allows one to believe one is (or can be) saved without doing anything at all. Rather than striving to run the race, demonstrating our love for God through working in synergy with Him, it allows us to sit back and do nothing. The question about faith or works, frankly, is nonsensical. They are two sides of the same coin. If you do not act on your faith then your faith is a lie, or at best lukewarm and we know what Christ's attitude to the lukewarm is, don't we?

James

 

[sojourner]

But that doesn't explain the attitude of certain Christians who insist that they are "saved now and forever," regardless of the choices they may make down the road. They aren't afraid of backsliding because they don't think it can happen, and yet they are still the most disagreeable, judgmental people imaginable. While these people would most certainly claim to realize the state of grace in which they find themselves, the complete lack of love and charity towards their fellow men speaks far more loudly than their pious words.

The prodigal was welcomed with open arms, by a Father who was patiently waiting for him to return. He was never "not part of the family," except by his own choice. Many of us believe we're doing OK, when we're really wallowing in the mud. One day, we'll all realize that we've been wallowing in the mud and come home.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

So what? Isn't it a double standard if God uses one method to judge us for salvation, but another method for everything else?.

Can you make a scriptural argument to support this?

In any case, I fear this is clouding the issue, as the other quotes I posted say that salvation is indeed judged by works. If you are to say that the one quote in question says otherwise, you will also need to say why the other quotes are wrong.

This isn't a debate forum.

 

[Quiddity]

Kat and Sojournor,

I'm not sure what I can add that you two haven't already come up with. We consider that people are saved by the grace of God (nobody can make themselves worthy of salvation) but that we must have faith is Him and that faith without works is dead, as James tells us. If you really believe in and love God then you will do as He commands. Merely saying 'I believe in God' is most certainly not enough. As St. Maximos the Confessor said 'Theology without praxis is the theology of demons'. Sola fide, especially when taken to the extreme of OSAS, allows one to believe one is (or can be) saved without doing anything at all. Rather than striving to run the race, demonstrating our love for God through working in synergy with Him, it allows us to sit back and do nothing. The question about faith or works, frankly, is nonsensical. They are two sides of the same coin. If you do not act on your faith then your faith is a lie, or at best lukewarm and we know what Christ's attitude to the lukewarm is, don't we?

James

To no surprise, I agree with everything James said.

 

[Katzpur]

The prodigal was welcomed with open arms, by a Father who was patiently waiting for him to return. He was never "not part of the family," except by his own choice. Many of us believe we're doing OK, when we're really wallowing in the mud. One day, we'll all realize that we've been wallowing in the mud and come home.

I agree that any of us can come home at any time, which is the beauty of the Atonement. I still say, however, that any so-called Christian who treats his fellow man with contempt, cannot be said to be "good" because he is "saved."

 

[Katzpur]

To no surprise, I agree with everything James said.

So do I. Every last word. And I'm hoping that doesn't come as a surprise to anyone.

 

[Quiddity]

So do I. Every last word. And I'm hoping that doesn't come as a surprise to anyone.

I'm certainly not. I'm glad we agree on this.

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

Can people who believe that salvation also includes works give me the Biblical Scripture they use to back this up. Thank you.

I already posted a Scripture that I don't think you responded to in your last thread on this, but here I go again:

"But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who 'will render to each one according to his deeds': eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;" Romans 2:5-7

Doesn't get much clearer: eternal life comes through patient continuance in doing good, not merely belief

 

[Tiberius]

I posted a few pages back that had quotes where people were judged by their works.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?p=646488#post646488

 

[sandy whitelinger]

We can even define "belief" and "confession" as a "work."

ESV Romans 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Well? Do you or don't you? And why?