Salvation by Works

[sandy whitelinger]

Can people who believe that salvation also includes works give me the Biblical Scripture they use to back this up. Thank you.

 

[Katzpur]

Can people who believe that salvation also includes works give me the Biblical Scripture they use to back this up. Thank you.

You're welcome!

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Romans 2:12-13 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

2Timothy: 2-19 Nevertheless, the foundation of God standeth sure, having the seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.

James 2:20-24 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

You're welcome!

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Romans 2:12-13 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

2Timothy: 2-19 Nevertheless, the foundation of God standeth sure, having the seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.

James 2:20-24 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Well done.

 

[lunamoth]

You're welcome!

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Romans 2:12-13 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

2Timothy: 2-19 Nevertheless, the foundation of God standeth sure, having the seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.

James 2:20-24 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

:clap

But I'll beat Sandy to the punch:

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Works (Love) are the living evidence of our faith.

2 c,
luna

 

[angellous_evangellous]

We can even define "belief" and "confession" as a "work."

ESV Romans 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

 

[Katzpur]

But I'll beat Sandy to the punch: Works (Love) are the living evidence of our faith.

Precisely. And without them we are left with a dead faith. I really doubt there are any Christians who believe we are saved by our works. That would seem to me to negate the whole concept of Christ's Atonement.

We can even define "belief" and "confession" as a "work."

Absolutely. And we should. That's why it drives me nuts to hear someone say that Christ's grace is a gift and we don't have to do anything to earn it. All we have to do is believe. Well, duh. That's a pretty big contradiction right there.

 

[jonny]

This isn't out of the Bible, but I came across it today so I'm going to share it anyway. I think it shows the relationship between our faith in Jesus Christ and duty in this life pretty well:

D&C 20:37 - All those who humble themselves before God, and desire to be baptized, and come forth with broken hearts and contrite spirits, and witness before the church that they have truly repented of all their sins, and are willing to take upon them the name of Jesus Christ, having a determination to serve him to the end, and truly manifest by their works that they have received of the Spirit of Christ unto the remission of their sins, shall be received by baptism into his church.

I guess in some ways whether or not works have anything to do with salvation comes down to how you view faith. If you view faith as something that requires action, then works have to be involved. If you view faith as simply something that you profess through words and thoughts, then works are not involved.

 

[lunamoth]

This isn't out of the Bible, but I came across it today so I'm going to share it anyway. I think it shows the relationship between our faith in Jesus Christ and duty in this life pretty well:

D&C 20:37 - All those who humble themselves before God, and desire to be baptized, and come forth with broken hearts and contrite spirits, and witness before the church that they have truly repented of all their sins, and are willing to take upon them the name of Jesus Christ, having a determination to serve him to the end, and truly manifest by their works that they have received of the Spirit of Christ unto the remission of their sins, shall be received by baptism into his church.

I guess in some ways whether or not works have anything to do with salvation comes down to how you view faith. If you view faith as something that requires action, then works have to be involved. If you view faith as simply something that you profess through words and thoughts, then works are not involved.

I like that Jonny. I think of faith and belief not as intellectual assent to a set of literal facts, but as trusting in the love of God and giving my heart's assent to the Way shown to us by Christ.

luna

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Absolutely. And we should. That's why it drives me nuts to hear someone say that Christ's grace is a gift and we don't have to do anything to earn it. All we have to do is believe. Well, duh. That's a pretty big contradiction right there.

Yes, it is a contradiction.

The Greek word for grace is charis, and it does mean "gift." If we stupidly interpret this gift as something from our culture, a gift cannot be earned, only bestowed out of love or some other motivation to truly be a gift. In ancient times, a gift is never without strings unless the giver or receiver does not want to continue in a relationship with the other person.

This is significant for Christian theology. So many Christians think that Christ's gift is something they receive that's it. No role for works, or really any continuing faith.

The Greek charis was given in a patronage relationship or friendship which entails a lifetime relationship of reciprocal giving and receiving (see Phil 4.12). The Emperor (= lord) is the ultimate patron or gift-giver, ruling all the subjects of the Empire with justice (if even in his own mind, we know that many of them were rascals). The subjects were not expected to reciprocate charis with a like gift - they were powerless to do so. What they could give is their loyalty, faithfulness, and love - which all subjects were expected to do. This loyalty, faithfulness, and love was expressed via faithfulness to the words and will of the Emperor as expressed by himself and his representatives (eg, the law and the prophets).

This is why Jesus is called Lord, the giver of the ultimate gifts, grace, and we are expected to reciprocate this ongoing gift via our ongoing love and devotion - lest the relationship end.

 

[lunamoth]

Yes, it is a contradiction.

The Greek word for grace is charis, and it does mean "gift." If we stupidly interpret this gift as something from our culture, a gift cannot be earned, only bestowed out of love or some other motivation to truly be a gift. In ancient times, a gift is never without strings unless the giver or receiver does not want to continue in a relationship with the other person.

This is significant for Christian theology. So many Christians think that Christ's gift is something they receive that's it. No role for works, or really any continuing faith.

The Greek charis was given in a patronage relationship or friendship which entails a lifetime relationship of reciprocal giving and receiving (see Phil 4.12). The Emperor (= lord) is the ultimate patron or gift-giver, ruling all the subjects of the Empire with justice (if even in his own mind, we know that many of them were rascals). The subjects were not expected to reciprocate charis with a like gift - they were powerless to do so. What they could give is their loyalty, faithfulness, and love - which all subjects were expected to do. This loyalty, faithfulness, and love was expressed via faithfulness to the words and will of the Emperor as expressed by himself and his representatives (eg, the law and the prophets).

This is why Jesus is called Lord, the giver of the ultimate gifts, grace, and we are expected to reciprocate this ongoing gift via our ongoing love and devotion - lest the relationship end.

That's a good point AE. Actually, I think gift-giving in our culture today is still similar to that which you described. But it's important to remember that it is not quid pro quo. It is about relationships, and relationships require attention to thrive. God can be pouring out His love constantly but it's not a relationship unless we respond and nurture the relationship from our end. That means being intentional about it...which is where I think things like prayer and worship come in.

luna

 

[angellous_evangellous]

That's a good point AE. Actually, I think gift-giving in our culture today is still similar to that which you described. But it's important to remember that it is not quid pro quo. It is about relationships, and relationships require attention to thrive. God can be pouring out His love constantly but it's not a relationship unless we respond and nurture the relationship from our end. That means being intentional about it...which is where I think things like prayer and worship come in.

luna

If our gift-giving is similar, I can't say how.

Gift-giving in the ancient world colored every type of exchange - it was how you got your sustinance. For example, we go to Home Depot or anywhere else in our marketplace, hand over our cash or credit card, and receive our product. The relationship is over. Perhaps warranties and continued services may conpensate for some of the differences.

In the ancient world, the client was forever in debt to the patron, even in most cases his children were too.

It was quid pro quo, but the client could not and was not expected to completely repay the debt owed - in fact if he did, the relationship would be over, and he would no longer receive benefits from his friend.

 

[lunamoth]

If our gift-giving is similar, I can't say how.

Gift-giving in the ancient world colored every type of exchange - it was how you got your sustinance. For example, we go to Home Depot or anywhere else in our marketplace, hand over our cash or credit card, and receive our product. The relationship is over. Perhaps warranties and continued services may conpensate for some of the differences.

In the ancient world, the client was forever in debt to the patron, even in most cases his children were too.

It was quid pro quo, but the client could not and was not expected to completely repay the debt owed - in fact if he did, the relationship would be over, and he would no longer receive benefits from his friend.

OK, I see now what you mean and you are right, they are by and large different. I was thinking that in our culture gift-giving is still a way to grease the wheels of society and it is just as important as having good manners in our civilization to be able to give (and receive) gifts graciously, including gifts to those we don't know such as through charity. Not because it's about commerce and you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours (as you say in your post, those things are accomplished by other means, some of which are called gift-giving). Gift-giving, charity, and good manners all are vital for acknowledging our love and respect for others, and our interdependance, our relationships with each other.

eh...sorry this is poorly expressed but my kids are call and no time to clean it up.

luna

 

[Tiberius]

I the Lord ... give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.

And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Who will render to each one according to his deeds. ... For not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified.

What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

The Father, who without partiality judges according to each one's work.

I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

There's a few passages I used in a post on another forum...

 

[Katzpur]

Yes, it is a contradiction.

The Greek word for grace is charis, and it does mean "gift." If we stupidly interpret this gift as something from our culture, a gift cannot be earned, only bestowed out of love or some other motivation to truly be a gift. In ancient times, a gift is never without strings unless the giver or receiver does not want to continue in a relationship with the other person.

This is significant for Christian theology. So many Christians think that Christ's gift is something they receive that's it. No role for works, or really any continuing faith.

Bingo! I'm glad you mentioned the necessity of continuing faith. That's another issue I have with the concept of not being able to "lose your salvation." What? Believe once and be done with it?

We cannot claim to having faith in Christ unless we are willing to be faithful to Him. I see His atoning sacrifice as a gift, but I don't see it as a gift that is given indescriminately. It is a gift, not because we have to do nothing to receive it, but because Jesus is under no obligation to give it at all. We could do good works from the moment we woke up in the morning until the moment we went to sleep at night, every day of our lives, and we would still remain eternally separated from God -- were it not for Christ's Atonement.

The relationship you mentioned is criticial. It is absolutely essential. Most of us give gifts at Christmas time, and we do so not with the intention to obligate the people to whom we give them. I'd give gifts to certain people regardless of whether they gave me something in return. They don't "earn the right" to my gift. On the other hand, I know a lot of people that I don't give gifts to. I don't give gifts to people unless I have some sort of relationship with them. I realize that this is oversimplifying Christ's gift to us, but a fervent proclamation of belief is not enough, in my opinion.

This is why Jesus is called Lord, the giver of the ultimate gifts, grace, and we are expected to reciprocate this ongoing gift via our ongoing love and devotion - lest the relationship end.

Yes, and what's interesting is that He never asks us to do anything that will be of any personal benefit to Him. Your mention of Christ as the "giver of gifts" reminds me of something I once read by a prominent LDS author. He describes a conversation between any one of us and Jesus Christ:

Me: But why would you do this for me?
Jesus: Because I love you.
Me: But it doesn't seem fair.
Jesus: That's right. It's not fair at all -- it's merciful. It is, after all, a gift.
Me: But how can I possibly deserve such a gift?
Jesus: Don't be silly. You can't. You don't. This gift is offered because I love you and want to help you, not because I owe it to you.
Me: But how can I ever repay you?
Jesus: There you go again. Don't you get it yet? You can't repay me, not you or all the billions like you. Gifts of this magnitude can never be repaid. For what I've done out of love for you, you can only love me back, and seek to become what I am -- a giver of good gifts.

 

[sojourner]

Maybe "paying it forward" instead of forever trying to "pay it back" is what loving our neighbor is all about, and why Jesus said that love is the basis for the Law.

We don't do good works in order to win a ticket to heaven. We do good works because, through grace, we are good.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

2Timothy: 2-19 Nevertheless, the foundation of God standeth sure, having the seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Katz, am I missing something? How is this a reference to our works?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also, for Hebrews 5:9 "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him."

"Obey" Him in what and what direct reference do you have to show the "what?"
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And finally, in James 2:20 "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

What was he justified in? A direct reference again please.

Thanks,
Sandy

 

[sandy whitelinger]

There's a few passages I used in a post on another forum...

You used Revelation 2:23; "And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works."

Give what according to their works and what works? Please give a direct scriptural reference please. Thanks, Sandy

 

[Katzpur]

Katz, am I missing something? How is this a reference to our works?

From my perspective, if you "depart from iniquity," you refrain from sinning. Instead, you do good. I believe this is a commandment given to those who call upon Christ to save them.

Also, for Hebrews 5:9 "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him."

"Obey" Him in what and what direct reference do you have to show the "what?"

Obey his commandments. Surely you don't need to have me tell you what Jesus' commandments were. (I'll be happy to do so if that's what you want, but it strikes me as unnecessary.)

And finally, in James 2:20 "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

What was he justified in? A direct reference again please.

To be justified means to be declared free from guilt or blame. Abraham had always had faith in God, but this faith was tested when he was asked to sacrifice his own son to God. The fact that he was willing to obey this almost inconceivably difficult commandment was proof that his faith was real and that he was not merely paying lip service to God.

 

[Katzpur]

Maybe "paying it forward" instead of forever trying to "pay it back" is what loving our neighbor is all about, and why Jesus said that love is the basis for the Law.

I agree completely.

We don't do good works in order to win a ticket to heaven. We do good works because, through grace, we are good.

I don't believe we do good works in order to win a ticket to heaven, either. In fact, to put it that way really cheapens Christ's grace, in my opinion.

But, Sojourner, I have heard you state on many occasions that every single solitary person who has ever lived will ultimately be saved. (And you probably know by now that my own belief doesn't differ from yours all that much. I believe that the vast, vast majority of all people will be.) But there is a pretty significant flaw in your statement that "we do good works because, through grace, we are good." If all mankind is saved through grace, why, through that same grace, are all men not good?

I would agree that anyone who is truly converted to the gospel of Jesus Christ will have experienced a change of heart as a result of that conversion, and will have a sincere desire to do good. But all will continue to be tempted, and some will not resist. If being "good" is a natural consequence of grace, why do so many Christians continue to struggle to live the way they know in their hearts they should?

 

[James the Persian]

Well, I was going to answer here (as in my opinion sola fide is one of the most dangerous heresies any Christian group has ever come up with, but I'm sure you all realise that by now), but I find my answers would be superfluous. You're all doing such a good job that I feel there's littke that I can add. I will take part if I notice anything I can contribute, though.

James