Safety Theater

[Quagmire]

I assume that all leading politicians come here to read my posts.

Sorry, we banned all of those a long time ago.

(Margert Trudeau still whines about it on Facebook sometimes)

 

[Milton Platt]

In the news.....
Resistance Building To Coronavirus 'House Arrest' Orders...It's About Time!
Excerpted....
Across the country, from political leaders, to small business owners, to
parents who just want to take their children to the park, resistance is
growing to the authoritarians who have effectively suspended the
Constitution and placed most of the country under house arrest.
Lawsuits are also challenging unlawful "stay at home" orders.
What if all the hysteria-driven orders have actually made the virus
outbreak even worse? More scientists are coming forward to argue
for the "Sweden model" of moderation rather than lockdown.
:

OK, the screed above was merely the inspiration for this thread.
Don't focus upon it too much.
I agree that we must take precautions to prevent the virus's spread.
But government is a very blunt an instrument, & is treating the issue
simplistically at the moment. Some businesses, while non-essential,
can operate with very low risk. And for contractors, there's no
program yet giving them money to weather the loss of business.

One local business was caught delivering mulch. Cops shut them
down as non-essential. But the nature of the business is such that
there's massive social distance. Mulch is loaded in dump trucks by
wheeled loaders. Dump trucks drop the load without drivers ever
leaving the vehicle. Human contact doesn't happen. Close proximity
doesn't happen.

Some self storage facilities are even deny tenants access to their
already rented units. I won't go that far We've closed the office,
but still allow tenants access to their units. There's virtually no
interaction between them, & they only touch their own units & locks.
There's very little activity anyway...perhaps 1 person a day.

I agree with you in principle. The proper initial reaction to close down most businesses is okay....but then a more measured response could follow. Once you put a cap on everything, you then have time to take a second look and begin easing up on certain activities in a selective fashion.

 

[Revoltingest]

I agree with you in principle. The proper initial reaction to close down most businesses is okay....but then a more measured response could follow. Once you put a cap on everything, you then have time to take a second look and begin easing up on certain activities in a selective fashion.

I understand that.
But I'm an anti-gubmint rabble rouser, so I want what I want now.
I'm going to do very well financially (I hope) with my recent stock purchases.
However I know so many who might lose their shirts....or blouses.
I selfishly want to see them survive this in both kinds of good health.

 

[Tambourine]

Blind obedience to the law has its shortcomings. Some
people I know would face financial ruin if they do exactly
as told. So it's entirely reasonable for them to continue
working.
balance.

It's almost as if an economic system that orients itself towards corporate profit-making at the expense of everything else, and forces people to work in order to not starve regardless of their personal situation or health doesn't contribute to people's general health and safety.

 

[Revoltingest]

It's almost as if an economic system that orients itself towards corporate profit-making at the expense of everything else, and forces people to work in order to not starve regardless of their personal situation or health doesn't contribute to people's general health and safety.

Well, that working to avoid starving part has an an up side to it.
If people got what they needed without working, there's a great
risk that slackers like me would become even more numerous,
& an even greater burden upon those who do work.
Just ask @Wu Wei about it.

 

[ecco]

But should we allow our fear of the pandemic to make us willing to give up our right to assembly and allow the government to tell us we cannot leave our houses or even meet with small groups of friends? I don't think so, and I for one am becoming outraged at people's willingness to give up their rights for security.

Are you outraged enough to gather a group of family and friends and go to a park this weekend? Civil protest is another one of your rights. Go do it.

Just don't knock on my door afterward.

 

[Tambourine]

Well, that working to avoid starving part has an an up side to it.
If people got what they needed without working, there's a great
risk that slackers like me would become even more numerous,
& an even greater burden upon those who do work.
Just ask @Wu Wei about it.

Rich people already exist.

 

[Wu Wei]

Well, that working to avoid starving part has an an up side to it.
If people got what they needed without working, there's a great
risk that slackers like me would become even more numerous,
& an even greater burden upon those who do work.
Just ask @Wu Wei about it.

I'd QUIT working and join the slackers before I let that happen

 

[Revoltingest]

Rich people already exist.

I hope to become one of them, albeit on a small scale.

 

[Revoltingest]

I'd QUIT working and join the slackers before I let that happen

 

[Revoltingest]

Some news about the financial situations that many face...
Record Bankruptcies Predicted in Next Year as Unemployment Soars
The Pandemic Will Cleave America in Two
Federal Debt Tops $24 Trillion for First Time; GAO: 'The Current Federal Fiscal Path is Unsustainable'

And currently, we're facing more unreasonable restrictions....
New Whitmer order bans 'travel between residences,' with a few exceptions

It's a wide variety of sources, so at least one should satisfy.

 

[Revoltingest]

Odd new development.....
In Michiganistan, we may go to state parks.
There, we may be around other people, behaving safely, of course.
But it's now illegal to go to a vacation home.
There, all alone it's apparently too great a health threat.

 

[Heyo]

Odd new development.....
In Michiganistan, we may go to state parks.
There, we may be around other people, behaving safely, of course.
But it's now illegal to go to a vacation home.
There, all alone it's apparently too great a health threat.

We a similar rule here (Lower Saxony). The reason that was given was that those vacation homes are mostly in tourism areas and that the hospital places are too few and should be reserved for primary residents.
That was the theory. In practice so many people got exceptions that it is worthless.

 

[Revoltingest]

We a similar rule here (Lower Saxony). The reason that was given was that those vacation homes are mostly in tourism areas and that the hospital places are too few and should be reserved for primary residents.
That was the theory. In practice so many people got exceptions that it is worthless.

In Michiganistan I know people whose vacation homes
have no neighbors for miles up in da UP.
But I suspect that the state makes money charging admission
to state parks, but gets nothing from vacation homes (except
property taxes which are paid anyway). But that would be
corrupt, which isn't possible because our governor is a Democrat.
<snicker>

 

[fantome profane]

But it's now illegal to go to a vacation home.

As it should be. If you are talking about traveling to small rural communities that have limited healthcare resources, a bunch of people packing up and heading there can quickly overwhelm their hospitals. Now you might respond that these people are not sick, but you don’t know that.

People don’t need to be going to their “vacation homes” at this time. Stay where you are. That is not too big a sacrifice to make.

 

[Revoltingest]

As it should be. If you are talking about traveling to small rural communities that have limited healthcare resources, a bunch of people packing up and heading there can quickly overwhelm their hospitals. Now you might respond that these people are not sick, but you don’t know that.

People don’t need to be going to their “vacation homes” at this time. Stay where you are. That is not too big a sacrifice to make.

The nature of the virus is different from something like a heart attack.
If one is at a vacation home, & feels the onset of the virus, one has
ample time to drive an hour or 2 to a hospital.
It's also possible that urban hospitals would be overwhelmed earlier
than ones in outlying communities with more sparse populations.

I wonder....isn't it too risky to go to state parks, where there'll be
mixing of many different people. This looks worse than being
in a vacation home, where the likelihood of spreading infection
is less.

We can't just assume that whatever government says is best.
Otherwise, you'd have to do as Trump dictates. We can reason
out better policy.

 

[fantome profane]

The nature of the virus is different from something like a heart attack.
If one is at a vacation home, & feels the onset of the virus, one has
ample time to drive an hour or 2 to a hospital.

I don’t think that is true. People have reported sudden and serious symptoms.

And what about having a heart attack at this time. Or an accident. Or any other condition that might require medical care? Better to stay put.

I wonder....isn't it too risky to go to state parks, where there'll be
mixing of many different people. This looks worse than being
in a vacation home, where the likelihood of spreading infection
is less.

I agree. I think opening beaches and parks at this time is just incredible stupid and dangerous.

We can't just assume that whatever government says is best.
Otherwise, you'd have to do as Trump dictates. We can reason
out better policy.

I am listening to the medical experts, not the politicians. Sometimes they are saying the same thing. But when they are not, I go with the experts.

 

[Revoltingest]

I don’t think that is true. People have reported sudden and serious symptoms.

That's possible. It hasn't worked that way
for people I know who got the bug.
Is it so common that it should drive public
policy for everyone?

And what about having a heart attack at this time.

If that risk is legal to take on other times,
then there's no increase in risk now.
Otherwise, should it be illegal to live
far from major hospitals?

Or an accident. Or any other condition that might require medical care? Better to stay put.

Same as for heart attacks.
Such non-transmissible maladies pose a risk only to the person
who decides to go to a rural area. I say it's wrong to ban that.

I agree. I think opening beaches and parks at this time is just incredible stupid and dangerous.

I'd say open them, but monitor behavior.
This is what NYC does (per daughter).
Cops issue $500 or so tickets to people not social distancing.
Otherwise, they get no exercise.

I am listening to the medical experts, not the politicians. Sometimes they are saying the same thing. But when they are not, I go with the experts.

Medical experts aren't experts on the economy,
& might take an extreme position on safety to
the detriment of people running out of money.
Gotta eat, buy medicine, keep the lights on, etc.
It's about the best balance.

 

[fantome profane]

That's possible. It hasn't worked that way
for people I know who got the bug.
Is it so common that it should drive public
policy for everyone?

That is the entire problem right there. Why in the world would you ask that question to a random person on the internet? My opinion is irrelevant. And honestly I don’t mean any offence by this, Please don’t take offence. But your opinion is also irrelevant. The medical experts are recommending not traveling at this time.

If that risk is legal to take on other times,
then there's no incre in risk now.
Otherwise, should it be illegal to live
far from major hospitals?

These times are totally unlike other times. The healthcare system is under incredible increased pressure from Covid. And that affect their ability to deal with all other conditions that might require assistance. There absolutely is increased risk at this time. I would think that should be obvious.

And I forgot to mention the availability of supplies. The supply chain of certain items is also under unique strain at this time. We don’t need extra people heading into rural grocery stores and drug stores.

This is not the time for unnecessary non-essential travel.

 

[Revoltingest]

That is the entire problem right there. Why in the world would you ask that question to a random person on the internet? My opinion is irrelevant. And honestly I don’t mean any offence by this, Please don’t take offence. But your opinion is also irrelevant. The medical experts are recommending not traveling at this time.

Everyone's opinion here on RF is irrelevant.
But we've known that during every conversation.
It's not useful information to state.

These times are totally unlike other times. The healthcare system is under incredible increased pressure from Covid. And that affect their ability to deal with all other conditions that might require assistance. There absolutely is increased risk at this time. I would think that should be obvious.

It is obvious.
But there are differing opinions on how to deal with obvious competing interests & goals.

And I forgot to mention the availability of supplies. The supply chain of certain items is also under unique strain at this time. We don’t need extra people heading into rural grocery stores and drug stores.

Urban grocery stores are worse than rural ones,
going by experiences in my family. Are you making
a case for the opposite?

This is not the time for unnecessary non-essential travel.

Stating it isn't the same as supporting it.
Questions....
Are medical authorities you respect saying no one
should go out to exercise or commune with nature?
If I go to my shop to pick up a finished project, & I
encounter no other people, where's the danger?
If someone refrains from work, & runs out of money
for food, what do they do?

To some extent, this is about orientations....the dangers
of too much liberty vs the oppression of a government
micromanaging our affairs in our best interest.
We're going to see the same info, & differ on public policies
just cuz we have different values & expectations.