Safety Theater

[Father Heathen]

I'm all for liberty, but people must also exercise responsibility when exercising freedom, especially when their actions can potentially endanger others. Because the general public can't be trusted to act responsibly, the government then is a necessary evil.

 

[Revoltingest]

Still, do you understand how desperately needed those n95 masks are?

Is this a rhetorical question to make a point?

There really are none to spare. If they are used for church goers countless more doctors, nurses, and other medical emergency workers are going to die. People who could live if people just skipped church for a while.

Many of us do have N95 masks on hand from before the pandemic.
But even lacking those, lesser masks are effective at protecting
others from the wearer. And these are what we see in common
use at stores remaining open around here.

Again, I think that you value church going far less than do believers.
And since we live in a society where we heathens are the minority,
your judgement of the value of church attendance will definitely
not hold sway. So we should accommodate this reality with a
maximum of cooperation, & a minimum of prosecution.

 

[Revoltingest]

I totally agree.
The problem is people insisting that their preferences are essential. So "essential" that continuing to spread C19 is just the price that society must pay for their behaviors of preference. Without taking responsibility, such as not going to the grocery or caring for more at risk people.

There are things I really want to do, but don't because they're unnecessary risks.

And things I'm prevented from doing.
I bought Doug concert tickets for Christmas. They were pricy, a big name act at a remarkably intimate venue. The concert was scheduled in late March. Well, guess what. Show was cancelled, and all I got was a vague promise TBA.

We were very unhappy and disappointed, but didn't gripe at the government for infringing on our right to free assembly. Because we aren't Constitutional Literalists.
Tom

I propose ditching the requirement that interaction be deemed "essential".
It's about safe behavior, not government's decree that this or that
business should shut down.
About "paying the price"......
Government shutting down businesses which could operate
safely has a high price too....unemployment, loss of savings.

How does delivering truckloads of mulch enhance public health?
But we can easily imagine the effects of the business shutting.

 

[Revoltingest]

I'm all for liberty, but people must also exercise responsibility when exercising freedom, especially when their actions can potentially endanger others. Because the general public can't be trusted to act responsibly, the government then is a necessary evil.

And that is exactly what I'm advocating, ie, cracking down on
unsafe behavior. But not shuttering businesses which could
operate safely.

 

[Wu Wei]

The editorial was merely the spark which ignited this post.

I & others have been violating state orders to continue
working, but doing so safely....keeping distance, hand
washing, masks at times. (Although @Wu Wei knows
that I do very little work. It leaves more for him.)

Blind obedience to the law has its shortcomings. Some
people I know would face financial ruin if they do exactly
as told. So it's entirely reasonable for them to continue
working.
I'd prefer that government put more consideration into
who can continue working safely, even if they're deemed
"non-essential". There are health & safety consequences
from financial disaster & poverty too. We need a better
balance.

I want to be deemed non-essential

 

[fantome profane]

Is this a rhetorical question to make a point?

i sincerely wanted, and still want to know if you understand. The fact that you mentioned them without acknowledging the shortages suggested to me that you did not fully appreciate the situation.

Many of us do have N95 masks on hand from before the pandemic.
But even lacking those, lesser masks are effective at protecting
others from the wearer. And these are what we see in common
use at stores remaining open around here.
.

I use something like this when I go out, which I do no more than once a week.

Do you think the government will be able to force church goers to wear masks? And what resources will be spent in enforcing this? Much better and more efficient to just lock and chain the doors.

 

[Revoltingest]

I agree some people seem to have double standards.

Libertarians typically don't.

The constitution guarantees freedom of assembly, and, while I support closing businesses, I do have a problem with governments telling people that they cannot meet with anyone outside of their own household, even in small groups (my state is one among many that has actually told people that they cannot even meet with friends in small groups). Though I have obeyed the law (so far), I do have a major objection to it, and I imagine resistance will continue to grow. We should take precautions to prevent the spread of the pandemic. But should we allow our fear of the pandemic to make us willing to give up our right to assembly and allow the government to tell us we cannot leave our houses or even meet with small groups of friends? I don't think so, and I for one am becoming outraged at people's willingness to give up their rights for security.

Laws....I've violated so many. It's sometimes the right thing to do,
eg, my felonious draft dodging. Our county actually relies upon
civil disobedience to make progress. And now even working for
a living has become that for some people.

 

[Revoltingest]

I want to be deemed non-essential

 

[Wu Wei]

ahhhh...finally

 

[Revoltingest]

i sincerely wanted, and still want to know if you understand. The fact that you mentioned them without acknowledging the shortages suggested to me that you did not fully appreciate the situation.

Yes.
It's why I've donated almost all of mine to those in greater need.
(I've posted that before just to show my detractors how virtuous I am.)
Do you know why they're rated "N95"?

View attachment 38710

I use something like this when I go out, which I do no more than once a week.

Do you think the government will be able to force church goers to wear masks?

Yes.
This is just as they force churches to shut people out.
The effectiveness of both options is questionable though.

And what resources will be spent in enforcing this? Much better and more efficient to just lock and chain the doors.

I understand the efficacy of that, & why you'd prefer it.
I favor the least authoritarian solution.

 

[Revoltingest]

ahhhh...finally

Being a bear....the greatest advantage is the rich supply of pictures on the internet.

 

[Revoltingest]

View attachment 38710

Some trivia about that....
Burned Lower Half Of Mort's Face Revealed In 'Bazooka Joe' Stunner

 

[fantome profane]

Some trivia about that....
Burned Lower Half Of Mort's Face Revealed In 'Bazooka Joe' Stunner

I am glad to see you referencing more reliable sources than the RP Institute.

 

[Revoltingest]

I am glad to see you referencing more reliable sources than the RP Institute.

You must've missed my post about the significance of that
link. I didn't present it as an authority on anything at all.
But it did inspire my post about safety theater.

It's generally a bad idea to make a thread about disapproval
of the source (without actually challenging anything in it).
This distracts from the real issue.

Caution:
I caught your joke, but decided it would be more fun to take it seriously.

 

[fantome profane]

You must've missed my post about the significance of that
link. I didn't present it as an authority on anything at all.
But it did inspire my post about safety theater.

Relax Rev. It was a joke.

 

[Revoltingest]

Relax Rev. It was a joke.

Check the post again.
I posted it before I was finished.
Same thing for the preceding one.
You responded too quickly!

I have a bad practice of posting when part way
done, & then finishing with numerous edits.
I know, I know....it sux for my readers.
I'll try to cut back on that.

See.....even this post underwent edits.

 

[Father Heathen]

Some trivia about that....
Burned Lower Half Of Mort's Face Revealed In 'Bazooka Joe' Stunner

That brings back childhood memories (of the comics and gum, not facial burns).

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Libertarians typically don't.

In my experience, that is until you start talking property rights or removing public utilities.

 

[sun rise]

Instead, let's address government policy approaches to
public health & economic well being.
Are the current restrictions here the best approach?

There's two parts to my answer. One is sadly human nature. It's a sledgehammer to be sure, but I would contend that given what people do otherwise, it's necessary

Is the Swedish model better?

Sweden is a country where there's universal medical care, where politics is not allowed in medical judgement and where the people listen to medical judgement voluntarily. So they're not comparable to what we have here.

Now if we had all three in this country, I'd be willing to listen. Are you willing to advocate for universal health care?

There are problems with every possible approach to the pandemic,

I agree.

Still, do you understand how desperately needed those n95 masks are?

They still are. Now once there's enough for everyone who wants one, there's enough medical facilities, PPE etc for everyone and the curve has been bent, I'd be open to loosening the restrictions possibly in a way @Revoltingest suggests. But now is not the time.

And that is exactly what I'm advocating, ie, cracking down on
unsafe behavior.

China could do that because it's a police state. It's a simple idea but what kind of police state would be necessary to truly enforce that. I find that less appealing as an option.

 

[columbus]

I propose ditching the requirement that interaction be deemed "essential".

And replace it with what?
Every idiot who has no grasp on the concept of contagious illness can do anything they want, regardless of the consequences? What are you actually proposing, other than anarchy?

It's about safe behavior, not government's decree that this or that
business should shut down.

And once we have a better grasp of what's most risky behavior, and legislative bodies have a chance to craft more nuanced responses, and legislative bodies get over the pandering that's going on right now(Texas is one example), then that might happen.

But that isn't going to happen immediately in the fractious and self indulgent culture of the USA. Capitalist and partisan values generally Trump human welfare. That's not news.

About "paying the price"......
Government shutting down businesses which could operate
safely has a high price too....unemployment, loss of savings.

How does delivering truckloads of mulch enhance public health?
But we can easily imagine the effects of the business shutting.

Feel free to send a letter or email to the White House or something. Like they're gonna care
Maybe if self indulgent Constitutional Literalists keep the epidemic going long enough? How much suffering is easy availability of mulch worth?
Tom