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Russian collusion confirmed by the FBI.

Father

Devourer of Truth
Nice to see Russia has raised their GDP Economy and well being enough that they can spend all there time on a mass plan to mess with other countries elections, pay for activists and do stuff that our government would fail step 1 of doing, maybe I should send Putin a gift basket. seeing as how they won whatever competition we had with them. when the enemy can do 50 step plans and execute them perfectly and the stupid Americans can't even do one step without tripping and falling and spill all their secrets on the floor. I think its safe to turn in the towel and just let them run us.

also, wait we are the Kings of screwing with other nations governments, we fund rebels to overthrow regime's and place new regime's that like us in. why is it a problem if Russia does it? bloody hypocrites
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I don't know what laws exactly was broken, but if is true perjury for Obama is one. Clinton's are looking at bribery and perjury. If it can be proven they did know about it before hand it's collusion for all 3 and former AG Eric Holder.
What the hell are you talking about? The article doesn't even vaguely suggest that Clinton, Obama or Holder committed such crimes as bribery or perjury. Apparently you need to familiarize yourself with those terms.

Bribery entails an act of quid pro quo. Identify the quid and identify the quo. Show that there was an agreement to exchange “this” for “that”.

Perjury is lying under oath in an official proceeding. What was the oath; what was the official proceeding, and what was the lie?
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
What the hell are you talking about? The article doesn't even vaguely suggest that Clinton, Obama or Holder committed such crimes as bribery or perjury. Apparently you need to familiarize yourself with those terms.

Bribery entails an act of quid pro quo. Identify the quid and identify the quo. Show that there was an agreement to exchange “this” for “that”.

Perjury is lying under oath in an official proceeding. What was the oath; what was the official proceeding, and what was the lie?

Like I said I am not sure what laws were broken.

Having knowledge beforehand of the collusion, then telling lies when questioned about the deal, and then approving a deal with the the people involved, sounds illegal to me. But what do I know.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Like I said I am not sure what laws were broken.
The only persons for which there is evidence of having violated any laws were prosecuted and plea bargained.

Having knowledge beforehand of the collusion
What "collusion" are you talking about? I bet you think there is a law about "collusion". Why don't look at the US Code, just to kind of see what's in it?

then telling lies when questioned about the deal
Quote all the lies that you are referring to.

then approving a deal with the the people involved
Whom are you claiming "approv[ed] a deal"?

sounds illegal to me. But what do I know.
All you are lacking are facts. You've got plenty of suspicions and more than enough false ideas.
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
Just to clarify:
The article says that various American nuclear people colluded with the Russians. Not Obama or Clinton. The argument against them is that they shouldn't have approved any deals since collusion had been occurring.

I do think this is a bit different than the charge that the sitting US President colluded with the Russians to get elected.
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
Quote all the lies that you are referring to.

This is the lie:

The Obama administration and the Clintons defended their actions at the time, insisting there was no evidence that any Russians or donors engaged in wrongdoing and there was no national security reason for any member of the committee to oppose the Uranium One deal.

Because the FBI, Energy Department and court documents reviewed by The Hill show the FBI in fact had gathered substantial evidence well before the committee’s decision that Vadim Mikerin — the main Russian overseeing Putin’s nuclear expansion inside the United States — was engaged in wrongdoing starting in 2009

Whom are you claiming "approv[ed] a deal"?

Obama and Hillary as pointed put in the answer to your first question above.

The argument against them is that they shouldn't have approved any deals since collusion had been occurring.

Favlun nailed it here.

I would think this is illegal. To have knowledge of the collusion and then still approve the deal that was obtained with that collusion. Maybe I am wrong. /shrug
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
This is the lie:

he Obama administration and the Clintons defended their actions at the time, insisting there was no evidence that any Russians or donors engaged in wrongdoing and there was no national security reason for any member of the committee to oppose the Uranium One deal.
Quote what President Obama and Secretary Clinton actually said.

Are you claiming that there was a "national security reason" for members of the Committee to oppose the Uranium One deal? If so, what was (or is) that national security reason?

Whom are you claiming "approv[ed] a deal"?
Obama and Hillary as pointed put in the answer to your first question above.
The Committee on Foreign Investment in the US is composed of 16 departments and agencies. The only way that the President can decide any matter before the Committee is if one of the heads of the departments or agencies vetos a deal. The Uranium One deal was a unanimous decision. So why are you claiming that Obama and Clinton "approved [the] deal"? Why are you picking on them?

I would think this is illegal. To have knowledge of the collusion and then still approve the deal that was obtained with that collusion. Maybe I am wrong. /shrug
What sort of act are your referring to as "collusion"?

As far as I am aware, there had been no prosecutions related to Uranium One at the time the Committee approved the Uranium One purchase. So to claim that Obama and Clinton, in particular, did something illegal when the Committee voted to approve the purchase is just without any factual basis. Right?
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
Quote what President Obama and Secretary Clinton actually said.

The article doesn't say what was actually said other than;

The Obama administration and the Clintons defended their actions at the time, insisting there was no evidence that any Russians or donors engaged in wrongdoing and there was no national security reason for any member of the committee to oppose the Uranium One deal.

But, the FBI and Energy Department and court documents reviewed by The Hill show the FBI in fact had gathered substantial evidence well before the committee’s decision that Vadim Mikerin — the main Russian overseeing Putin’s nuclear expansion inside the United States — was engaged in wrongdoing starting in 2009

The Committee on Foreign Investment in the US is composed of 16 departments and agencies. The only way that the President can decide any matter before the Committee is if one of the heads of the departments or agencies vetos a deal. The Uranium One deal was a unanimous decision. So why are you claiming that Obama and Clinton "approved [the] deal"? Why are you picking on them?

Because the article said they did. I am just going off what info is available to me, I am not a mind reader ya know.

As far as I am aware, there had been no prosecutions related to Uranium One at the time the Committee approved the Uranium One purchase.

No prosecutions at the time, but the FBI was still in the process of investigating/gathering evidence at the time. They knew what was going on. They just hadn't prosecuted anyone yet.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The article doesn't say what was actually said other than;

The Obama administration and the Clintons defended their actions at the time, insisting there was no evidence that any Russians or donors engaged in wrongdoing and there was no national security reason for any member of the committee to oppose the Uranium One deal.

But, the FBI and Energy Department and court documents reviewed by The Hill show the FBI in fact had gathered substantial evidence well before the committee’s decision that Vadim Mikerin — the main Russian overseeing Putin’s nuclear expansion inside the United States — was engaged in wrongdoing starting in 2009
Here is the single-sentence paragraph in the article that you are apparently referring to:

They [federal agents] also obtained an eyewitness account -- backed by documents -- indicating Russian nuclear officials had routed millions of dollars to the U.S. designed to benefit former President Bill Clinton’s charitable foundation during the time Secretary of State Hillary Clinton served on a government body that provided a favorable decision to Moscow, sources told The Hill.​

In the first place, if these “eyewitness accounts” of this “rout[ing]” of millions of dollars are “backed by documents,” then what are those documents? Notice the article doesn't even vaguely suggest that there any “FBI and Energy Department and court documents”. None of the affidavits linked to in the article allege any illegal activity involving Bill Clinton or the Clinton Foundation.

And why does The Hill need a “source” to tell it about these documents that “back” the “eyewitness accounts” of bribery? Why didn't The Hill just get these documents and tell us what the documents and eyewitness accounts actually say?

What exactly does the claim mean that “Russian nuclear officials . . . routed millions of dollars . . . to benefit former President Bill Clinton”? Does “routed” mean these Russian nuclear officials were directly involved a bribery scheme? If so, why didn't the article just say that? Was there a quid pro quo?

I am certain that the suggestiveness of the article is gratifying to people who are already convinced that Obama and the Clintons are crooks, corrupt in every possible way. But suggestions of unspecified wrongdoing, unsupported by any identified source or available documentation, is all that the article achieves with regard to Obama and the Clintons. Right?

The Committee on Foreign Investment in the US is composed of 16 departments and agencies. The only way that the President can decide any matter before the Committee is if one of the heads of the departments or agencies vetos a deal. The Uranium One deal was a unanimous decision. So why are you claiming that Obama and Clinton "approved [the] deal"? Why are you picking on them?
Because the article said they did.
So you trust everything found in articles in The Hill? Or do you just trust The Hill when it says something suggestive of wrongdoing by Obama and/or the Clintons?

No prosecutions at the time, but the FBI was still in the process of investigating/gathering evidence at the time. They knew what was going on.
To whom are you referring as "they"? Prove your claims. The article doesn't make the claim that you have made here about "they". Right?

In fact, the article directly contradicts your claim: "Multiple current and former government officials told The Hill they did not know whether the FBI or DOJ ever alerted committee members to the criminal activity they uncovered."
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
To whom are you referring as "they"? Prove your claims. The article doesn't make the claim that you have made here about "they". Right?

They refers to the fbi.

So you trust everything found in articles in The Hill? Or do you just trust The Hill when it says something suggestive of wrongdoing by Obama

Nope.

Maybe be true may not. /shrug
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
They refers to the fbi.
You said "They [FBI] knew what was going on." So what do you claim that the FBI knew in 2010? Show what the FBI knew in 2010. Did any of the others on the Committee know what the FBI knew? Does what the FBI allegedly knew in 2010 provide reason for any of the Committee members to have voted "no" on the Uranium One sale?

Nope.

Maybe be true may not. /shrug
What is it that you think "may be true"? You've taken a single article and embroidered on the suggestive statements in it, even misrepresenting several things that are just not in the article. So what do you think "may be true"?



BTW: I just saw this since I initially posted: House committees announce probe into Russia uranium deal Perhaps it will help you focus on the issues.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Gone
Premium Member
A trend in Liberals to protest those who have opposing viewpoints and who have been scheduled and booked to speak at a university is not an isolated incident. The Islamaphobe thing is not an isolated incident. Charges of "cultural appropriation" are not isolated incidents. And, yes, Liberals need to just accept it happened, own up to it, and get to denouncing and renouncing such behaviors.
This assumes that calling alt-right supporters "deplorables" and protesting the talks of disgusting types like Richard Spencer or Milo is something that needs to be denounced or renounced. I say no. There is nothing in liberalism or progressivism that says that you muat be completely tolerant of all viewpoints. That is ridiculous.
 
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Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
You said "They [FBI] knew what was going on." So what do you claim that the FBI knew in 2010? Show what the FBI knew in 2010. Did any of the others on the Committee know what the FBI knew? Does what the FBI allegedly knew in 2010 provide reason for any of the Committee members to have voted "no" on the Uranium One sale?

As stated in the link, and repeated multiple times.

Because the FBI, Energy Department and court documents reviewed by The Hill show the FBI in fact had gathered substantial evidence well before the committee’s decision that Vadim Mikerin — the main Russian overseeing Putin’s nuclear expansion inside the United States — was engaged in wrongdoing starting in 2009

I do not know anymore than what the article reports.

What is it that you think "may be true"? You've taken a single article and embroidered on the suggestive statements in it, even misrepresenting several things that are just not in the article. So what do you think "may be true"?

What may or may not be true is Obama and Hillary's wrong doing. As I said I don't know what laws have been broken by them (If any). But it seems illegal to me, to have knowledge of the collusion, and then still approve the uranium deal. That being said, Obama and Hillary had access to that evidence and info that the fbi had acquired.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Gone
Premium Member
it is disrespectful, and you can't learn from your enemies if you silence them and don't learn about them.
Is there something you need to learn about the alt-right in person by bringing them into town and allowing them a platform that you couldn't learn anywhere else? Is there something about white supremacy, white nationalism, calls for ethnic cleansing and segregation, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, etc. that you must learn in person and that we shouldn't disrespect?(!)
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
Is there something you need to learn about the alt-right in person by bringing them into town and allowing them a platform that you couldn't learn anywhere else? Is there something about white supremacy, white nationalism, calls for ethnic cleansing and segregation, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, etc. that you must learn in person and that we shouldn't disrespect?(!)

It's not about learning something from them per say. It's to keep their ideas out in the open for all to see. When you censor or de-platform someone, it drives that movement underground. There their ideas fester in the shadows unchecked. When everything is out in the open, their ideas can be monitored and more easily dealt with.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
What may or may not be true is Obama and Hillary's wrong doing. As I said I don't know what laws have been broken by them (If any). But it seems illegal to me, to have knowledge of the collusion, and then still approve the uranium deal.
Perhaps no one on the Committee thought it was appropriate to reject the deal (that is, throw it to Obama) on the basis of unsubstantiated allegations that (as far as I can discern) actually have nothing to do with Uranium One.

That being said, Obama and Hillary had access to that evidence and info that the fbi had acquired.
Prove your claim that Obama and Hillary had access to the details of the FBI's confidential information's information that "Moscow had compromised an American uranium trucking firm with bribes and kickbacks".

You say you know nothing but what is in The Hill article, but you make endless claims that are simply not in the article.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Gone
Premium Member
It's not about learning something from them per say. It's to keep their ideas out in the open for all to see. When you censor or de-platform someone, it drives that movement underground. There their ideas fester in the shadows unchecked. When everything is out in the open, their ideas can be monitored and more easily dealt with.
They should be driven into the sewers like the vermin they are. If they need to be monitored for plans of violence than the FBI can keep tabs on them, even if they're driven into the deep web. We don't need to be giving them platforms and mainstreaming their rhetoric.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
By the way, according The Hill's latest article, the 2 House Committees want to determine whether there was an FBI investigation at the time of the 2010 vote:

Lawmakers on the two panels, the House Intelligence and Oversight and Government Reform Committees, say they first want to know whether there was an FBI investigation into Russian efforts to infiltrate the U.S. energy market, which at the time included assuming shares of the uranium company, Uranium One.

“We’re not going to jump to any conclusions at this time, but one of the things we’re concerned about is whether or not there was an FBI investigation — was there a DOJ investigation — and if so, why was Congress not informed of this matter? That will be the start of the probe,” Intel head Devin Nunes (R-Calif.) told reporters in the basement of the Capitol.

The Hill reported last week that the FBI had gathered evidence that Moscow had compromised an American uranium trucking firm with bribes and kickbacks as part of an effort to grow Russian President Vladimir Putin’s atomic energy business inside the United States — an investigation that predated the approval of the Uranium One sale.

The lawmakers want to know whether the deal should have been approved in the first place.​

House committees announce probe into Russia uranium deal

The article then goes on to say:

Rep. Pete King (R-N.Y.) on Monday cited “very, very real concerns about why we would allow a Russian-owned company to get access to 20 percent of America’s uranium supply.”

“It’s important we find out why that deal went through.”
Well, there was the US-Russian agreement for peaceful nuclear cooperation that Bush initiated in 2008, withdrew because of the George conflict, then the Obama administration resubmitted, which Congress did not block:

The U.S.-Russian Agreement for Peaceful Nuclear Cooperation

The Obama administration re-submitted the U.S.-Russian agreement for peaceful nuclear cooperation to Congress on May 10, 2010. The agreement, which would allow the two countries to trade nuclear materials, technology and services, was originally signed and submitted to Congress for review in May 2008. However, following the August 2008 conflict between Russia and Georgia, the U.S.-Russian relationship deteriorated significantly; the Bush administration withdrew the agreement from Congress on September 8 of that year. The agreement will automatically enter into force unless both houses of Congress pass a resolution of disapproval within 90 legislative days.

Some members of Congress have expressed displeasure with the agreement, citing Russia's cooperation with Iran in the nuclear field. A resolution of disapproval has been introduced in the House, and is under consideration by the House Foreign Affairs Committee.

In a letter transmitting the agreement to Congress, President Obama wrote that "the situation in Georgia need no longer be considered an obstacle to proceeding with the proposed Agreement; and...the level and scope of U.S.-Russia cooperation on Iran are sufficient to justify" the new submission.[1] Obama also welcomed joint U.S.-Russian endeavors in the nuclear sphere, such as the New START treaty. Since the resubmission of the agreement, Russia has also joined the United States in adopting a fourth round of UN sanctions against Iran.

[. . .]

The proposed agreement will allow the two parties to cooperate in scientific research related to nuclear reactors and the nuclear fuel cycle, radioactive waste handling, "nuclear industry and commerce," and "shipments...of moderator material, nuclear material, technologies and equipment, as well as services in the area of the nuclear fuel cycle..."[2] Indeed, the agreement states that not only is such activity permitted, but that the governments will "facilitate commercial relations" in such fields.[3]​

The U.S.-Russian Agreement for Peaceful Nuclear Cooperation | NTI

That seems to me to answer Rep. King's question.
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
Prove your claim that Obama and Hillary had access to the details of the FBI's confidential information's information that "Moscow had compromised an American uranium trucking firm with bribes and kickbacks".

You doubt the President of the United States and the Secrectary of State have full access to the FBI information? Sounds like you need to prove your assertion.
 
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