Terrywoodenpic
Oldest Heretic
If we are to believe what they are saying, this goes back through several presidencies. Time enough for any case to at least get started.
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Russian collusion confirmed by the FBI.
- Thread starter Enoch07
- Start date
If we are to believe what they are saying, this goes back through several presidencies. Time enough for any case to at least get started.
tytlyf
Not Religious
Well, people will believe anything. I tend to avoid conspiracy theories. And I usually ignore anything the Trump says...mostly because he's a liar.
On Trump dossier, the President just suggested the FBI, Democrats and Russia might all be co-conspirators - CNNPolitics
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
Calling people "deplorables," egging Trump supporters, and harassing/silencing dissenting thoughts. No, Trump supporters were not perfect angels, far from it, but think about what it looks like when the "peace, love, tolerant and equality" Liberals aren't tolerating the rights of others and harassing those of opposing viewpoints? And, really, it wasn't confined to just this last election. Such as, Liberals tend to be quick to label anyone who criticizes Islam and Middle Eastern Muslim culture as an "Islamaphobe," even if it comes from someone who is a Middle Eastern Muslim and were forced to flee so they wouldn't be killed - that is also in spite of the fact it is permissible to Liberals to have year-round "open season" on Christianity. And also look to Portland and the closed down taco truck, and how dare those white women use the ideas and recipes of Mexican women for their own business.
DavidFirth
Well-Known Member
Good post.
Kuzcotopia
If you can read this, you are as lucky as I am.
I'm not in control of, nor can I answer for, any of these. The problem is. . . You are using isolated incidents to prove some greater pattern or ideology if liberals that is not there. In a way, assuming that all liberals needs to answer for these are feeding the same fire that right wing media uses. Their case: These isolated gaffes and decisions represent mainstream liberal ideas, instead of a small minority who got it wrong.
Do you think they're right?
Funny, but it doesn't work the other way. Racists in Charlottesville, for example, represents a tiny fringe element. At no point, should any of us if the left conflate their beliefs with the beliefs of all conservatives. Conservatives as a whole do not, and should not, have to apologize for the actions of a few racist people who claim a conservative ideology. Mainstream conservative ideology has nothing to do with this. and I have enough respect for the other side to keep that distinction there, even if I don't get the same consideration in turn.
Liberals as a whole should stop apologizing for the actions of a few. Believe me, the media forces arrayed against us laugh when we do that, because now the political distraction and gross stereotypes present in conservative media get proven true. This is why we lose.
Conservatives are not our enemy, and I sincerely hope they don't see me as theirs. But I understand how enemies are built through the media, and you're playing right into the hands of those who would stereotype our beliefs and actions for their own political gain.
tytlyf
Not Religious
There are conservatives and there are GOP media conservatives. The media ones are fed propaganda and panic mongering 24/7 by the usual outlets. Everything the GOP media elitists do is designed to politicize everything and demonize the opposition. The conservatives who rely on their crooked media outlets are the ones that will definitely tell you they hate liberals and democrats with a passion. I've even heard some say that liberals are more dangerous and more an enemy than Russia and NK. Their media teaches them that.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
A trend in Liberals to protest those who have opposing viewpoints and who have been scheduled and booked to speak at a university is not an isolated incident. The Islamaphobe thing is not an isolated incident. Charges of "cultural appropriation" are not isolated incidents. And, yes, Liberals need to just accept it happened, own up to it, and get to denouncing and renouncing such behaviors.
The case has been started with many investigators assembling evidence. You don't go to trial before you have all the evidence you can find. That's the way the legal system works.
It seems that some people here doubt what is reported in this article. Everything in the article is true as far as I know. You can look up the case against Mikerin. The article even links to the indictment affidavit.
It's all old news, of course. I'm not exactly sure who is being alleged to have "colluded" with Russians (other than Mikerin). If it is the Clintons who are alleged to have violated the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act in some kind of bribery scheme, the statute of limitations has apparently run out on that.
I think, not stating for certain, that Obama and Hillary are implicated to some degree in this, as alledgedly they had knowledge of collusion before approving the deal.
Even if either Obama or Clinton had knowledge of some "collusion" (the article does not seem to mention any acts that would be called "collusion"), I don't know what law that would violate.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
BINGO! This is the kind of "false equivalency" game a few people play here.
An exert:
They also obtained an eyewitness account — backed by documents — indicating Russian nuclear officials had routed millions of dollars to the U.S. designed to benefit former President Bill Clinton’s charitable foundation during the time Secretary of State Hillary Clintonserved on a government body that provided a favorable decision to Moscow, sources told The Hill.
The racketeering scheme was conducted “with the consent of higher level officials” in Russia who “shared the proceeds” from the kickbacks, one agent declared in an affidavit years later.
The Obama administration and the Clintons defended their actions at the time, insisting there was no evidence that any Russians or donors engaged in wrongdoing and there was no national security reason for any member of the committee to oppose the Uranium One deal.
But FBI, Energy Department and court documents reviewed by The Hill show the FBI in fact had gathered substantial evidence well before the committee’s decision that Vadim Mikerin — the main Russian overseeing Putin’s nuclear expansion inside the United States — was engaged in wrongdoing starting in 2009
I don't know what laws exactly was broken, but if is true perjury for Obama is one. Clinton's are looking at bribery and perjury. If it can be proven they did know about it before hand it's collusion for all 3 and former AG Eric Holder.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
Conservatives and Liberals do see each other as enemies though. And in various ways, they make it shown. "Political correctness" is a subject that drove both the Tea Party and Trump supporters, and Liberals aren't learning that. So, what is happening, is Liberals are fueling the rants of this emerging "Alt Right," while this Alt Right behavior is fueling the antics of Liberals. And guess which group is the one who gets out and votes? And, sadly and very unfortunately, Liberals tend to use social pressure to violate the rights of those they don't like, while Conservatives use their pens to violate the rights of those they don't like.
Locally, things aren't looking better. I'm not "playing into their hands," I get to live through it. I get to hear complaints of whiny Liberals, and I often agree. And then I'll step on a landmine, a few potential ones because there are some areas where Liberals have just really messed up. My biggest pet peeve is that they do protest speakers and cause such an alarming demand that the speaker be not allowed to speak. It does violate rights, it is intolerant (and I certainly get enough of it in a Conservative land over my Left-winged views), it is disrespectful, and you can't learn from your enemies if you silence them and don't learn about them. It's about as bad as Liberals taking it upon themselves to feel offended for others (or "the rest of the group" as often happens). It's awkward. It's good to point things out, such as when legal attention calls into question some religious practices (as was the case when I was made aware that beginning public meetings isn't just some normal regular thing and the implications behind it), but that Liberal habit to take it upon themselves to offend others, it's another aspect of that "political correctness" that so many Conservatives and general Right-wingers complain about.
Kuzcotopia
If you can read this, you are as lucky as I am.
Thise things happened. I reject and renounce all of them. . . I probably have post histories on all theee of these things here on RF, where I've argued against them, as a liberal.
But what have we just accomplished here?
If Fox News decides to run their near-daily story about those evil 19-year old college kids who are rude to another guest at Berkeley, do I have to renounce them again? If some Hollywood actor goes ape-doo in an interview with Tucker Carson over "islamaphobia!", will I again have to apologize for him?
Tell me where this ends? I don't see anyone on the right losing a wink of sleep over the claims of their fringe elements. Honestly, nor should they.
Please, remember that all of these cases you are bringing up are repeated ad nausem on conservative media . . . It's why you constantly hear about them and think they're improtant too.
Please, also remember that the singular goal of this onslaught is to paint these fringe elements as the essence of liberal thought, the core of what the "insane" liberal secretly is trying to do. The reason you don't see a counterpunch of us accusing conservatives of aligning with their fringe elements . . . is because that it's a dishonest, unfair argument.
Anyone who does, I also renounce.
Again, there were definitely racists in Charlottesville who called themselves conservative. . . But no one with any sense is going to paint them as the core of conservative values, nor should any conservative constantly have to dignify that suggesting with a near-daily apology.
I am only asking for the same basic consideration. . . As should you.
Kuzcotopia
If you can read this, you are as lucky as I am.
More! Okay!
They way you describe all this. . . I must be living in a different world than you.
I have liberal friends. . . And all we talk about is taxation, welfare, labor unions, sensible regulation, poverty, education, health care and the like. If you are a liberal, maybe you can focus your friends toward these issues, and away from whatever offends them that day?
Am I out of touch?
I'm not sure I understand that this is really a problem with liberalism as an ideology, and more a problem of media sensationalism and social media hysteria masquerading as a legitimate problem.
Trump is president, after all.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
It gets brought up on "non-Conservative" media as well. Mostly from Left-wingers who aren't Liberal, or Liberals who don't like where their party is heading (kind of like when Republicans failed to reign in the Tea Party). It's repeated on that media as well.
And I think freedom of speech is a pretty big deal because it's needed for a healthy society. You don't have to be a Conservative to like it, appreciate it, and think people should be able to mostly, generally, and typically freely speak. Protest a speaker. cool. Demand the speaker be silenced, way uncool.
And, also, I hear a lot about the NFL and how the players shouldn't be allowed to do that, and I view the Conservative response to that pretty much in the same light I do as when Liberals demand silence.
So, no, it isn't rambling on about "Conservative media" talking points, it has to me looking at Liberals and asking "do I really have to claim them on the Left?"
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
Way out of touch with how goes here. People here talk about guns and welfare leeches and prayer in school and government control and Liberal influence of society. If their against same-sex marriage, that's and them and they can complain all they want, it shouldn't be struck down because their personal god disapproves. When they say they are against NFL players taking the knee, they are being hypocrites. But when it comes to freedom of speech, I mostly agree with them, at least the core of the issue. And then with unions, it's not hard for me to work up people into a pro-workers hype, preaching pro-labor, and heralding woker's rights. Being Far-Left, it's almost like being pro-worker is one of our own talking points, lol.
Kuzcotopia
If you can read this, you are as lucky as I am.
I know right? How the heck did we lose labor support! Should have been read and butter! Ha ha!
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
No, the Liberals/Democrats lost that, and for pretty much ignoring them as a group. Unlike us communists and socialists, who in the Left tend to put workers very high in priority. A lot of modern Liberal pro-worker ideology even comes from communist authors such as Karl Marx. But we avoid that name, and related terms, and even pro-worker/union Conservatives will fall in line to lend support to the struggle of the working class.