Robert E. Lee Statue In Virginia Will Be Removed

[fantome profane]

Destroying a reminder of our National history does not remove the history all it does is try to hid it.
If we are to remember our National history we have to have a statue, graveyard, or some other symbol to remind us of that history, whether it is good or bad.
George Santayana "those who cannot remember the past are doomed to repeat it" is something to remember.
Should we wipe from the face of this country monuments like the Little Bighorn Battlefield National Monuments or others that there is controversy over what they represent?

You need to find a way to remember the shameful parts of your history without celebrating the shameful parts of your history.

A statue graveyard is actually not a bad idea.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Beyond stupid. Guess the PC police do not understand history.

Have we forgotten or hudden Hitler thiugh his statues have been destroyed? Stalin? How many even know what Nero or Julius Ceasar looked like? Do Robert E. Lee's own wishes of not wanting to be a statue mean nothing? Does glorifying a nation tearing itself apart to fight a war to preserve slavery, not seem appalling to you? Does glorifying a traitor not seem problematic to you?

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

There are many reasons why the US government chooses to do what it has done, although not everyone believes that their motive is to "right the world's wrongs."

I don't really care if people want to tear down statues or destroy the graven images and symbols of the Confederacy, but think about the message that it sends. It's as much as saying that slavery, racism, bigotry and other atrocities never existed from 1776-1861 and then from 1865 to the present. It was only during those four years (1861-65) and in 11 states that these horrible things happened. Nothing bad ever happened in the 39 other states, and the Federal government has been nothing but saints and choir boys all along.

Do you still think they're giving us an accurate picture of history?

Then replace it with a statue that glories in the freeing of the slaves.
and the emancipation of the black citizens into the social and working life of the USA.
that would seem to be the positive thing to get out of history.
not praising some famous but failed general who fought for the status quo.

 

[Stevicus]

As far as I know, most Confederate statues in the US were installed in the 1900s, half a century after the Confederacy's defeat in the American Civil War. The R.E. Lee monument in Monument Avenue seems to be actually one of the oldest in Virginia, having been commissioned in 1890, with the accompanying Jefferson Davis and J.E.B. Stuart monuments only being built in the early 1900s.

EDIT: If anything, they're a monument to the resurgence of racism and white supremacy in the early 1900s. Whether that warrants public monuments is a question for the American people, of course.

It wasn't really a "resurgence," since racism and white supremacy had existed in America all along, almost from the very beginning.

The monuments are more of a testament to the historical methods and perceptions which appeared to have more of a political objective than anything else. Keep in mind that a lot of the patriotic imagery and symbolism associated with Americana came about after the Civil War, and this also had an effect on how Americans (both in North and South) viewed the Civil War. A lot of what we consider today to be part of the "mythos" of America came about during this time.

I don't think the monuments were put up to commemorate racism as much as they were put there to create the perception that America was now against racism and white supremacy. After all, the story goes that Robert E. Lee was personally against slavery and that he only joined the Confederates out of loyalty to his state. Even if that wasn't really the truth, the bottom line is that all parties involved have conceded and acknowledged the basic principle that slavery is wrong and its abolition was a good thing for America.

Even the pro-Confederate Lost Cause couldn't really advocate for a return to slavery, since the central hero of their epic tale was said to be against slavery. Their entire narrative depended on portraying Lee as a noble, gentlemanly, heroic figure who held his army together under grisly conditions against insurmountable odds. Even the Union version of history gave a lot of respect to Lee and other Confederate leaders, and Union leaders such as President Grant also pressed for reunification and reconciliation.

Likewise, Americans fully believed in the concept of equality, as they understood it at the time, but the prevailing notion was "separate but equal." That, too, was a lie, but it was a lie so that Americans could feel good about themselves as a righteous, noble country which valued freedom, justice, and equality.

In the West, there were similar lies that came about and established the order in the states which were formed after the Civil War.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Arnold Benedict: No statue but we have not forgotten history.

 

[Father Heathen]

Beyond stupid. Guess the PC police do not understand history.

No, what's beyond stupid is people's inability or refusal to understand that history is remembered in schools, libraries, museums, and so on. It doesn't require participation trophies made a significant time after the fact to celebrate the losers. We don't require statues that commemorate Hitler in order to remember WW2. Clearly the lack of understanding is on your part.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Destroying a reminder of our National history does not remove the history all it does is try to hid it.

I'm pretty obsessed with history. In no way am I suggesting to forget it. Or hide it.

If we are to remember our National history we have to have a statue, graveyard, or some other symbol to remind us of that history, whether it is good or bad.

Sure, I agree.

George Santayana "those who cannot remember the past are doomed to repeat it" is something to remember.

Again, I agree.

Should we wipe from the face of this country monuments like the Little Bighorn Battlefield National Monuments or others that there is controversy over what they represent?

I would hope not. Not because of 'controversy' alone, at least.
But take the Little Bighorn Battlefield National Monuments and compare it to the Lee statue.

In what light does each show history? What is the message? What is it they're helping us remember?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

he emancipation of the black citizens into the social and working life of the USA.

Thats still a work in progress here.

No, what's beyond stupid is people's inability or refusal to understand that history is remembered in schools, libraries, museums, and so on. It doesn't require participation trophies made a significant time after the fact to celebrate the losers. We don't require statues that commemorate Hitler in order to remember WW2. Clearly the lack of understanding is on your part.

You'd think theyd come up with a better defense because it really is such a terrible one. We remember things orally, written, sung in song, with art, by just talking. We remember so many things that have no statue. And we've forgotten those that had them anyways. It's the ultimate fate of everything.
But if they don't want to use newer and better arguments, thats fine by me.

 

[Father Heathen]

Arnold Benedict: No statue but we have not forgotten history.

Exactly. When it comes to history it's important that everything be remembered, but not all of it is worthy of being celebrated or honored.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Interesting the crowd who think they're so clever pointing and out that the Democrats once supported slavery, who now HATE the moder Democrats, are desperate to hang on to Democrat symbols.

Personally, I'm not keen on removing monuments generally, but the hypocrisy from the Usual Suspects in this particular case is quite staggering.

Re Confederate monuments specifically? I think mouments from the time of the Confederacy and shortly after should be left in place, I think ones from the Jim Crow era that were plainly intended to intimidate and keep black people "in their place" should probably go. Context is important.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You'd think theyd come up with a better defense because it really is such a terrible one. We remember things orally, written, sung in song, with art, by just talking. We remember so many things that have no statue. And we've forgotten those that had them anyways. It's the ultimate fate of everything.
But if they don't want to use newer and better arguments, thats fine by me.

Very few artifacts from Vlad Dracul III are known to exist. History has not forgotten, though precious few details are known of this Wallachian viovide.

 

[Father Heathen]

Destroying a reminder of our National history does not remove the history all it does is try to hid it.
If we are to remember our National history we have to have a statue, graveyard, or some other symbol to remind us of that history, whether it is good or bad.
George Santayana "those who cannot remember the past are doomed to repeat it" is something to remember.
Should we wipe from the face of this country monuments like the Little Bighorn Battlefield National Monuments or others that there is controversy over what they represent?

Nobody is trying to hide or remove history, only that some things don't deserve to be commemorated or honored. Not on government/public property.

 

[SkepticThinker]

There are many reasons why the US government chooses to do what it has done, although not everyone believes that their motive is to "right the world's wrongs."

I don't really care if people want to tear down statues or destroy the graven images and symbols of the Confederacy, but think about the message that it sends. It's as much as saying that slavery, racism, bigotry and other atrocities never existed from 1776-1861 and then from 1865 to the present. It was only during those four years (1861-65) and in 11 states that these horrible things happened. Nothing bad ever happened in the 39 other states, and the Federal government has been nothing but saints and choir boys all along.

Do you still think they're giving us an accurate picture of history?

I think the message it sends is that racists shouldn't be venerated with statues and monuments celebrating them.

When the Iraqis knocked down that statue of Saddam Hussein, they weren't erasing history. They were saying, "we don't revere this man as a great leader deserving of any place of honour."

 

[Father Heathen]

Interesting the crowd who think they're so clever pointing and out that the Democrats once supported slavery, who now HATE the moder Democrats, are desperate to hang on to Democrat symbols.

Personally, I'm not keen on removing monuments generally, but the hypocrisy from the Usual Suspects in this particular case is quite staggering.

Re Confederate monuments specifically? I think mouments from the time of the Confederacy and shortly after should be left in place, I think ones from the Jim Crow era that were plainly intended to intimidate and keep black people "in their place" should probably go. Context is important.

Republican: "Your party was the one who supported the confederacy, slavery, etc."
Democrat: "So you don't mind if we remove these statues, flags, etc.?
Republican: "NOOOOOO! DON'T DO IT!!!"

 

[SkepticThinker]

Destroying a reminder of our National history does not remove the history all it does is try to hid it.
If we are to remember our National history we have to have a statue, graveyard, or some other symbol to remind us of that history, whether it is good or bad.
George Santayana "those who cannot remember the past are doomed to repeat it" is something to remember.
Should we wipe from the face of this country monuments like the Little Bighorn Battlefield National Monuments or others that there is controversy over what they represent?

As far as I know, there are no Nazi statues in Germany.
Does that stop you from knowing that the Holocaust occurred?

 

[Stevicus]

As the posts between yours and mine here show, it is the opposite.
Those old Confederate Memorial‘s are an attempt to white-wash all of the bigotry and hatred and racism that went into the creation of the confederacy.
Their attempt to erase history from the minds of the people in the south is what needs to be destroyed.

I think that we might have a similar goal in that we both want the truth of history to be told. I think we both oppose any attempts to whitewash bigotry, hatred, and racism which have existed in this country throughout our history and even continues to exist in the present.

The Confederacy only existed from 1861 to 1865. Prior to that, all of those states were part of the United States, and they were all reabsorbed into the United States afterwards. It's the larger picture that I tend to see. I'd just hate to see people get suckered in again and substitute one lie for another lie.

It's not just about "the South." It's East, West, and North as well. Until we can come to terms with that, we're just setting ourselves up for more failure and divisiveness. It won't get better this way. Minnesota is in the North, btw.

I think that memorials showing slave abuse and Americans willingly killing other Americans so that they might continue to be slaveowners would be a better (and more accurate) way to remember the Civil War than glorifying enemy generals.
Would you agree?

Yes, although I'm not sure if memorials are enough to remember history anyway. The history is complicated. History is written by the victors, and some of it seems to be rooted in a desire to make people feel good about themselves. In the Postbellum era, the focus was on reconciliation and healing the nation's wounds. It would be inaccurate to suggest that the Powers That Be in the North really cared all that much about the suffering of the blacks in the South, either before or after the Civil War. And they were oftentimes just as hateful, bigoted, and racist as their Southern cousins.

Their only real dispute was over economic systems. Once slavery was officially ended on paper, the North was satisfied and pushed for a unified country and a unified economy. The whitewashing of Civil War history was as much to protect the reputation of the North - and by extension, the reputation of America as a whole. America ended slavery and embraced a policy where all men are created equal - even if it was couched in a lie called "separate but equal."

As I said, I don't really care about the monuments. If people want to tear them down, then tear them down. No skin off me. But I still see it as a distraction, just a symbolic, empty gesture. I think we're only fooling ourselves if we think that's going to solve the problems of today.

 

[Father Heathen]

Thats still a work in progress here.

You'd think theyd come up with a better defense because it really is such a terrible one. We remember things orally, written, sung in song, with art, by just talking. We remember so many things that have no statue. And we've forgotten those that had them anyways. It's the ultimate fate of everything.
But if they don't want to use newer and better arguments, thats fine by me.

And as others have pointed out, many of these statues were made well after the civil war. It would be like making a statue of Osama Bin Laden climbing and punching the Twin Towers like King Kong and then placing it on the lawn of some court house and then accusing those who protest it of wanting to erase history.

 

[Revoltingest]

Arnold Benedict: No statue but we have not forgotten history.

I'm so old that I knew his brother, Eggs.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Destroying a reminder of our National history does not remove the history all it does is try to hid it.
If we are to remember our National history we have to have a statue, graveyard, or some other symbol to remind us of that history, whether it is good or bad.

So then Plan B:

Keep the Lee statue in the park, but remove the plinth (i.e. the thing denoting honour), place the statue in a degrading setting with a new inscription: "never again can we allow the likes of this racist, slaver and traitor."

George Santayana "those who cannot remember the past are doomed to repeat it" is something to remember.

Funny - this statue is actually a monument to failing to remember the past. It's an attempt to gloss over the shameful, racist, treasonous legacy of the Confederacy.

Should we wipe from the face of this country monuments like the Little Bighorn Battlefield National Monuments or others that there is controversy over what they represent?

It's always interesting when I see right-wingers throw out things in jest that they think are ludicrous, but end up accidentally proposing decent, reasonable ideas.

 

[QuestioningMind]

Beyond stupid. Guess the PC police do not understand history.

What history? The history of a traitorous man who did his best to rip this nation apart, but was thankfully unsuccessful? ONLY in the south do they build statues to commemorate the LOSERS and are proud of the fact that their ancestors nearly destroyed this great nation.