• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Richard Dawkins says he is a Cultural Christian

How was it a process within it? I just don't see the vision

The investiture controversy had shattered the early-medieval equilibrium and ended the interpenetration of ecclesia and mundus. Medieval kingship, which had been largely the creation of ecclesiastical ideals and personnel, was forced to develop new institutions and sanctions. The result, during the late eleventh and early twelfth centuries, was the first instance of a secular bureaucratic state whose essential components appeared in the Anglo-Norman monarchy.

The intellectual expansion of Europe in the twelfth century, which was largely the work of churchmen, was in some ways more beneficial to the growth of secular power than to ecclesiastical leadership. The improvements in education, law, and even the increase in piety all came to serve the aims of monarchy. The rise of the universities produced a new kind of administrative personnel for royal government. The great increase in legal knowledge gave kings a way of implementing their control over society. It also gave them a juristic ideology to replace the early-medieval tradition of theocratic kingship, which had been divested of its effectiveness by the attacks of the Gregorian reformers.

The explosive effects of the new piety also contributed to the entrenchment of secular power. The widespread criticism of the clergy made it easier for royal government to assert its own leadership in society. The many problems arising from the new piety also distracted the hierarchy from paying close attention to what was happening in political life and gave kings greater freedom to pursue their own interests without ecclesiastical interference.
N Cantor. - Civilization of the Middle Ages


 
How was it a process within it? I just don't see the vision

You can see this process evolving (messily) over time. Many of the ideas that are thought to derive from The Enlightenment (or at least The Renaissance) and a rejection of Christianity, actually have their roots in the Middle Ages in a specifically Christian context.

One example:


The tract Defensor pacis (The Defender of Peace) laid the foundations of modern doctrines of sovereignty. It was written by Marsilius of Padua (Italian: Marsilio da Padova), an Italian medieval scholar. It appeared in 1324 and provoked a storm of controversy that lasted through the century. The context of the work lies in the political struggle between Louis IV, Holy Roman Emperor and Pope John XXII. The treatise is vehemently anticlerical. Marsilius' work was censured by Pope Benedict XII and Pope Clement VI.

Defensor pacis extends the tradition of Dante's De Monarchia separating the secular State from religious authority. It affirmed the sovereignty of the people and civil law and sought to greatly limit the power of the Papacy, which he viewed as the "cause of the trouble which prevails among men" and which he characterized as a "fictitious" power. He proposed the seizure of church property by civil authority and the elimination of tithes. In his view, the Papacy would retain only an honorary pre-eminence without any authority to interpret the scriptures or define dogma.

Defensor pacis - Wikipedia

In Defensor pacis, Marsilius sought to demonstrate, by arguments from reason (in Dictio I of the text) and by argument from authority (in Dictio II) the independence of the Holy Roman Empire from the Papacy and the emptiness of the prerogatives alleged to have been usurped by the Roman pontiffs. A number of Marsilius's views were declared to be heretical by Pope John XXII in 1327.[4]

Most of Defensor pacis is devoted to theology. Relying heavily on Scripture, Marsilius seeks to show that Jesus did not claim to possess any temporal power and that he did not intend his church to exercise any.[5] On the contrary, Scripture teaches that the church should be thoroughly subordinate to the state in both secular and spiritual matters. All authority in the church lies with the whole body of the faithful, the secular ruler who acts as the people's representative, and general councils called by the secular ruler.[6] Some of Marsilius's arguments on these themes had a marked influence during the Reformation.[7]

Today, Marsilius's Defensor pacis is best remembered not for its theology but for its political philosophy and legal theory. Marsilius agrees with Aristotle that the purpose of government is the rational fulfillment of humans' natural desire for a "sufficient life".[8] However, he goes beyond Aristotle in embracing a form of republicanism that views the people as the only legitimate source of political authority. Sovereignty lies with the people, and the people should elect, correct, and, if necessary, depose its political leaders.[7] Democracy, Marsilius argues, is the best form of government because it tends to produce the wisest laws, protects the common benefit, promotes "sufficiency of life", and produces laws that are most likely to be obeyed.[9]

Marsilius of Padua - Wikipedia


A short philosophy podcast that discusses his ideas and their Christian context if you are interested: HoP 270 - Render unto Caesar - Marsilius of Padua
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Is it possible for Dawkins to be a "cultural Christian" while saying that he doesn't believe anything in the bible?
It's possible, depending on what is meant by the term. You could call me a cultural Christian and it would be pretty close to true, depending on your meaning.
I wouldn't describe myself that way, only because I think it's confusing, but take God and belief out of the picture, I live a fairly Christian lifestyle (stereotypically), have plenty of Christian friends, celebrate Christmas and Easter after a fashion, etc.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Richard Dawkins continues to be one of the cringiest people on the planet, and an absolute embarrassment to atheists everywhere
I mean...*shrugs*
Being an atheist means I don't need to see 'atheist spokespeople' as actually 'speaking for atheists'.

Some men are idiots, some atheists are idiots, and some Australians are idiots. In none of those situations do I worry much about 'embarrassment'.
I think some atheists tie their identity too much to atheism as if it was a political movement.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Only in your biased mind. The vast majority of Christians are humanists.
That would depend entirely on what definition of humanism you are using. To some degree, Christians might align well with humanist organisations because of similar end goals (for example, the respect of people, and the promotion of human dignity) but might not be fairly described as humanist because of their belief that human agency isn't enough to achieve these end goals.
It's splitting hairs, but to be fair to Christians, I don't think we should assume they are humanists, nor that humanism is some sort of synonym for 'good'.

And most of the ethical paradigms presented by religious Christianity are intended the serve the general well being of humanity.
Agreed

But if you're a religion hating atheist, you will be inclined to ignore all this and search for any example you can find to justify demonizing your 'enemy's' intent.
Just remember we're not all religion hating.
;)
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
I found this report on Dawkins, one of the world's most famous and antagonistic atheists, claiming to be a cultural Christian to be absolutely fascinating. I hope it will open up a discussion about what a cultural Christian is as opposed to a true believer, and why (perhaps) such a person would identify with Christianity as opposed to, say, Islam. Here are various quotes from two of many articles on it.


Atheist Richard Dawkins said of Christianity: “It seems to me to be a fundamentally decent religion, in a way that I think Islam is not.”....

After expressing his satisfaction at what he perceives as a decline in the number of Christians, the famous atheist noted that he “would not be happy if, for example, we lost all our cathedrals and our beautiful parish churches. So I call myself a cultural Christian and I think it would be truly dreadful if we substituted any alternative religion.”




“You know I love hymns and Christmas Carols. I feel at home in the Christian ethos. I feel that we are a Christian country in that sense”....

Dawkins’ version of atheism seems to have changed tack, and in a positive way, or at least in this interview. He has left behind the stinging attacks and is gently embracing the world that Christianity has provided....

...because secularism & Dawkins’ own brand of evangelical atheism are both expressions of a specifically Christian culture – as Dawkins himself, sitting on the branch he’s been sawing through and gazing nervously at the ground far below, seems to have begun to realise....

Richard Dawkins wants to keep the fruit of Christianity while rejecting the beliefs of Christianity....

Dawkins admits that the social good has an origins story and it is integrally tied to the Christian faith, although he is still unwilling to believe in the Divine. “There is a difference between being a believing Christian and a cultural Christian”.
He's been doing that for awhile now. I don't know if I should laugh or gag. He attacks basically everything Christian except where it turns out he apparently wants to be included.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
Richard Dawkins continues to be one of the cringiest people on the planet, and an absolute embarrassment to atheists everywhere
Not for me he isn't. I've read a few of his books (as to his work) and seen him commenting as to religious beliefs. He is welcome to be as anti-religious as he wants to be in my view and I don't judge him on such, given that the religions have had it mostly their own way for centuries and still do have much the same influence in many countries - even the USA where plenty still have the most ludicrous beliefs. The ones who are embarrassing are those like YEC believers and those peddling outdated female rights or gender/sexuality views. But he no doubt has his faults.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
Dawkins supports aborting babies with Down's (i.e. eugenics) so how much of a "cultural Christian" he actually is remains to be seen. Going by that, I'm more of a Christian than he is, although I don't claim to be, cultural or otherwise. So this just seems another way for him to bash Islam.
 

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
Dawkins supports aborting babies with Down's (i.e. eugenics) so how much of a "cultural Christian" he actually is remains to be seen. Going by that, I'm more of a Christian than he is, although I don't claim to be, cultural or otherwise. So this just seems another way for him to bash Islam.
Given he was born in 1941 this might just be a cultural inheritance. Quite a few people have these beliefs from earlier generations. He was likely surrounded by Christians who believed the same.
 

Enai de a lukal

Well-Known Member
Not for me he isn't. I've read a few of his books (as to his work) and seen him commenting as to religious beliefs. He is welcome to be as anti-religious as he wants to be in my view and I don't judge him on such, given that the religions have had it mostly their own way for centuries and still do have much the same influence in many countries - even the USA where plenty still have the most ludicrous beliefs. The ones who are embarrassing are those like YEC believers and those peddling outdated female rights or gender/sexuality views. But he no doubt has his faults.
I envy you. He was fine back when he was a biologist. He was a fairly capable biologist. He's a horse**** philosopher of religion, though.
 

Enai de a lukal

Well-Known Member
I mean...*shrugs*
Being an atheist means I don't need to see 'atheist spokespeople' as actually 'speaking for atheists'.

Some men are idiots, some atheists are idiots, and some Australians are idiots. In none of those situations do I worry much about 'embarrassment'.
I think some atheists tie their identity too much to atheism as if it was a political movement.
He doesn't speak for atheists, these are not the same thing- he's not much of an atheist, after all. It'd just be nice if there could be an intelligent prominent atheist, instead of obvious imbeciles like Hitchens or Dawkins.
 

Enai de a lukal

Well-Known Member
... because he's been losing support among atheists, IMO.

His anti-feminism stance turned a lot of people off of him a decade ago. More recently, his anti-trans stance is alienating him to even more people... but might endear him to a segment of Christianity.

IMO, that's what's happening. He's looking for a place to be islamophobic, misogynist and anti-trans, so he's turned toward Christianity.
Its awfully straightforward you put it this way; what is a more natural environment for an anti-LGBT Islamaphobe, conservative American Christianity, or atheism? I think clearly the former. You can have him, Christianity, and please take Sam Harris and Jordan Peterson (lol, Jordan Peterson- I can't even write his name without chuckling) while you're at it.
 

Enai de a lukal

Well-Known Member
Can you explain precisely *how* he is anti-feminist, anti-trans, and Islamophobic, or do you just enjoy throwing these words around when someone uses facts and logic to come to conclusions that you don't like?
There's no way this is a real poster, this is obviously a bit account. Everything is too on the nose, from the username to the profile pic to the unironic use of "FACTS AND LOGIC".

Very amusing, I lol'd- doff my cap to you, sir.
 

Enai de a lukal

Well-Known Member
You still didn't explain precisely *how* these statements make him a misogynist, islamophobe, or anti-trans and didn't give any reasoning for why you think he was wrong on these things.
Sure they did, despite your obvious bad faith. Suckered them into responding to you- good job, grade A trolling!
 

PureX

Veteran Member
He doesn't speak for atheists, these are not the same thing- he's not much of an atheist, after all. It'd just be nice if there could be an intelligent prominent atheist, instead of obvious imbeciles like Hitchens or Dawkins.
In the end, atheism, like theism, is a personal choice made for personal reasons. It's why the more intelligent people of either camp tend not to debate the issue. Either position is logically valid, and neither position is provable, or falsifiable. So what's the point?
 
Top