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Retribution Theory of Justice

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
How do you feel about Retribution Theory? Is it a valid form of justice?

This is specifically the idea that because someone has transgressed, they should suffer in turn.

One of the things that turned me away from my childhood Christianity was thinking about Retribution Theory and Hell (of course I had no idea what it was called back then), but this does not have to be a thread about afterlife punishments (though it can be).

I remember thinking that two wrongs don't make a right: because someone has caused suffering doesn't make it just to cause them to suffer in turn purely to cause them suffering. There may be other reasons to cause them to suffer, such as by putting a dangerous person in prison; but it seems to me that should be more about protecting society than specifically to hurt the person in prison. So, for instance, I disagree with making prisons bleak and cruel environments (for multiple reasons, but this is one).
 

epronovost

Well-Known Member
Up to a certain point, it might have a limited use. Scaring people isn't exactly a good method to make them comply with standards of behavior, but it does work. Retribution does have a place in our concept of justice, most people would agree that bad things should happen to bad people. While it may be useless for the protection of society its deterrent effect should not be completely ignored neither should a sense of vindication be ignored in the healing process in the victim of a crime. In that retribution has a place. Now the trickier question is how to balance retribution with other concepts like restorative justice or even mercy and pardon.
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
Up to a certain point, it might have a limited use. Scaring people isn't exactly a good method to make them comply with standards of behavior, but it does work. Retribution does have a place in our concept of justice, most people would agree that bad things should happen to bad people. While it may be useless for the protection of society its deterrent effect should not be completely ignored neither should a sense of vindication be ignored in the healing process in the victim of a crime. In that retribution has a place. Now the trickier question is how to balance retribution with other concepts like restorative justice or even mercy and pardon.

I agree with some and disagree with other points; but even where I disagree, it was written such that I could at least entertain it.

I think where punishment is concerned, deterrence and rehabilitation are distinct from retribution. So for the case of protecting society, I don't think that counts as retribution. Though, I think bleak prison environments can make sense with a deterrence justification; so I'll grant that. However, there is a difference between deterrence and just being cruel: I think there is a line somewhere, but getting people to agree on where that line is probably won't ever happen. I have my own opinions on it.

I'm not sure that feeling vindication over a punishment is a good thing; this is the part to me that seems the most like pure retribution theory. I understand that we're all human, and I won't even claim not to have felt vindication over punishment myself. But when I think about it, I don't feel good about it. It feels like adding another wrong onto the pile of wrongs that got to the situation in the first place. I feel like I should only feel vindication over the aspect of removing a dangerous person from being able to harm others, not over causing the dangerous person harm.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The goal of the American justice system seems to be to assuage public ire by hurting those who hurt or annoy us. It doesn't seem to be focused much on crime reduction or public order. Other systems do much better in this regard.

Perhaps the government fears it will lose public confidence in its monopoly on violence and retribution if it appears soft on crime. Perhaps it fears blood feuds, vendetta and anarchy should it back off.

Retribution, followed by social isolation, blocked access to jobs, housing, education or participation in the political system is not conducive to reïntegrating criminals back into society. It's alienating, and gives them no stake in the society they have to live in. It makes resumption of a life of crime the easiest path. It's no wonder the American recidivism rate is so high. It's practically designed to achieve this.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
most people would agree that bad things should happen to bad people
If that is the case, count me amongst the minority.

Bad people may possibly be products of genetics and or environments, neither of which are in the control of those who do bad.

It would be criminal to punish someone for something that possibly wasn't there fault, therefore I do not agree with the torture and cruelty to criminals in the name of so called just retribution.

In my opinion.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
How do you feel about Retribution Theory? Is it a valid form of justice?

This is specifically the idea that because someone has transgressed, they should suffer in turn.

One of the things that turned me away from my childhood Christianity was thinking about Retribution Theory and Hell (of course I had no idea what it was called back then), but this does not have to be a thread about afterlife punishments (though it can be).

I remember thinking that two wrongs don't make a right: because someone has caused suffering doesn't make it just to cause them to suffer in turn purely to cause them suffering. There may be other reasons to cause them to suffer, such as by putting a dangerous person in prison; but it seems to me that should be more about protecting society than specifically to hurt the person in prison. So, for instance, I disagree with making prisons bleak and cruel environments (for multiple reasons, but this is one).
Retribution is not justice. It may be education, though. But it has to be 1. immediate, 2. measured and 3. consistent. And it should not linger on.
Only then is it effective. And of course there should be just as much positive enforcement as negative.
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
Retribution is not justice. It may be education, though. But it has to be 1. immediate, 2. measured and 3. consistent. And it should not linger on.
Only then is it effective. And of course there should be just as much positive enforcement as negative.

I will also submit that in terms of theories of punishment, you specifically mention "education," which I take to mean deterrence or rehabilitation. These are specifically competitors to retribution as a theory, not examples of it. So I agree.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
I disagree with sheer retribution as an end of a justice system rather than a means to minimize or prevent harm. While I can see the emotional value retribution might bring in a subset of criminal cases, the inherently subjective nature of what constitutes "sufficient" retribution in terms of emotional satisfaction renders it too thorny and exploitable to be useful in any practical sense in a justice system.

I believe that rehabilitation of the criminals, healing and compensation for the victims, and prevention of unnecessary harm for anyone should be the primary focus of any sound justice system. While suffering may be a side effect of that in some cases (as you pointed out in your example about imprisoning criminals), it shouldn't be the primary goal or something to embrace from a legal standpoint.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Secularly speaking, secular criminal systems (at least in Europe) have stated that the social rehabilitation of the culprit is mandatory.
So therefore, the penitentiary sistem has the obligation to treat convicts fairly and to turn them into future contributors to the social progress of a nation.
For example convicts can study, work inside the penitentiary.

Nevertheless, the aim of reprobation is present too. Not all crimes are equal. The more serious is the offence, the more strict is the penalty.
There are crimes of light entity where rehabilitation is possible. There are people like Ted Bundy (I am against death penty, btw).
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Retribution is about power (control). Specifically, getting it back from those who have taken it from us.

When people are abused by others, they tend to want to abuse others, in turn, not just to express their anger and resentment, but to feel empowered, again. Abuse becomes a self-perpetuating cycle. And violence usually just begets more violence. But we don't care about that. We want 'fairness'. And that means we want our share of control and self-determination back when it's been usurped by someone else. It's not rational, but we are not rational beings.

And of course we view our gods as reflections of ourselves, so we endow our gods with the same craving for 'justice' (retribution). And all the more so when we feel we are not getting it in the here and now.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
How do you feel about Retribution Theory? Is it a valid form of justice?

This is specifically the idea that because someone has transgressed, they should suffer in turn.

One of the things that turned me away from my childhood Christianity was thinking about Retribution Theory and Hell (of course I had no idea what it was called back then), but this does not have to be a thread about afterlife punishments (though it can be).

I remember thinking that two wrongs don't make a right: because someone has caused suffering doesn't make it just to cause them to suffer in turn purely to cause them suffering. There may be other reasons to cause them to suffer, such as by putting a dangerous person in prison; but it seems to me that should be more about protecting society than specifically to hurt the person in prison. So, for instance, I disagree with making prisons bleak and cruel environments (for multiple reasons, but this is one).
The only purpose in retributive justice is to give satisfaction to society and the injured parties.

Deterrence, which I see @epronovost mentions, is in my view quite a separate purpose from retribution.

I tend to think that an enlightened society would not require satisfaction by making the criminal suffer. But I do recognise we are not there yet, so an element of retribution is probably politically necessary, still.

The goals of justice should include deterrence and other measures to reduce re-offending, such as rehabilitation though education, making the criminal make amends to the victims of crime, and so on. There is an actual -ve value in simply locking criminals up with other criminals so that they can teach one another how to commit crime more effectively, which is often what happens.

Countries with low re-offending rates recognise these things. The USA and the UK are not among them.

(Declaration of Interest: I am a long-term supporter of the Howard League for Penal Reform: The Howard League | Home)
 
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Heyo

Veteran Member
I will also submit that in terms of theories of punishment, you specifically mention "education," which I take to mean deterrence or rehabilitation. These are specifically competitors to retribution as a theory, not examples of it. So I agree.
The intention may be different (at least in humans) but the punishment is the same.
When your kid gets a slap on the wrist because she was prodding the outlet with a knitting needle, do you do it because you have rationalized that it would deter her from doing it again or were you just frightened and acted emotionally and punished her for frightening you?
Punishing someone for annoying us is an instinctive reaction but it serves to keep social coherence in a herd/tribe (when done as described above).
Therefore it has nothing to do with justice, which should be rational.
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
The intention may be different (at least in humans) but the punishment is the same.
When your kid gets a slap on the wrist because she was prodding the outlet with a knitting needle, do you do it because you have rationalized that it would deter her from doing it again or were you just frightened and acted emotionally and punished her for frightening you?
Punishing someone for annoying us is an instinctive reaction but it serves to keep social coherence in a herd/tribe (when done as described above).
Therefore it has nothing to do with justice, which should be rational.

Oh I agree with the part about the intention being different but the punishment being the same. I've thought about that, too. It's probably little solace to a person in prison: "You're here so society is safe, not to cause you suffering. You're welcome"

Still, it's stuff that we should think about as a society. There are better ways than our justice system, and part of that comes from our philosophy as a society of what justice even means.
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
Perhaps I do want to get into the afterlife punishment thing at least a little bit, too.

Are there any conceptions of Hell that aren't retributive? After all, how can you be rehabilitated if the punishment is infinite?

I guess Hell is used as a deterrent by many people, but then I guess we'd have to get into other aspects of justice such as proportionality of punishment to crime.
 

Erebus

Well-Known Member
Are there any conceptions of Hell that aren't retributive? After all, how can you be rehabilitated if the punishment is infinite?

I believe some Swedenborgians interpret Hell as the location where some souls feel the most comfortable. If your natural inclination is towards inflicting harm on others then Hell is the place where you can indulge yourself. I haven't read Swedenborg's Heaven and Hell though so I can't tell you if this was his view or if it's a modern interpretation.

I have encountered similar views among some Christians that Hell is the place where the damned choose to be. However, it often strikes me as whitewashing what is ultimately still a punishment from God. While the Swedenborgian Hell isn't rehabilitative, it at least provides solid reasoning as to why the damned might actually prefer it to Heaven.



On a slight tangent, have you watched The Good Place? If not, I'd highly recommend it. In addition to being funny, it touches on a lot of topics that get discussed on this forum.
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
I believe some Swedenborgians interpret Hell as the location where some souls feel the most comfortable. If your natural inclination is towards inflicting harm on others then Hell is the place where you can indulge yourself. I haven't read Swedenborg's Heaven and Hell though so I can't tell you if this was his view or if it's a modern interpretation.

I have encountered similar views among some Christians that Hell is the place where the damned choose to be. However, it often strikes me as whitewashing what is ultimately still a punishment from God. While the Swedenborgian Hell isn't rehabilitative, it at least provides solid reasoning as to why the damned might actually prefer it to Heaven.

Interesting, if macabre.

On a slight tangent, have you watched The Good Place? If not, I'd highly recommend it. In addition to being funny, it touches on a lot of topics that get discussed on this forum.

We've all seen the time knife.
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
How do you feel about Retribution Theory? Is it a valid form of justice?

This is specifically the idea that because someone has transgressed, they should suffer in turn.

One of the things that turned me away from my childhood Christianity was thinking about Retribution Theory and Hell (of course I had no idea what it was called back then), but this does not have to be a thread about afterlife punishments (though it can be).

I remember thinking that two wrongs don't make a right: because someone has caused suffering doesn't make it just to cause them to suffer in turn purely to cause them suffering. There may be other reasons to cause them to suffer, such as by putting a dangerous person in prison; but it seems to me that should be more about protecting society than specifically to hurt the person in prison. So, for instance, I disagree with making prisons bleak and cruel environments (for multiple reasons, but this is one).
This is a good question and a hell of a complicated one as well. :D

Also I think, its quite difficult to answer this so it would reflect a person's true opinion on the matter, its simply to huge and complicated topic in that sense, so won't even try to do that :D

In general I would agree with you that it is wrong, not so much because of the idea behind it, Eye for an Eye. But because it's an expression of giving up or misunderstanding the root of the problem.

The threat of punishment is a decent way to discourage or make people think twice about doing something and I think that is the main idea behind this. But a lot of issues comes with this, we know that people get wrongfully jailed and should you kill someone as a result of a wrong judgement. You can't exactly reverse it. But in that case, should the judge and lawyers or whoever caused the wrong killing then also be killed? Usually these people are not held accountable for mistakes in that way, they might have to compensate with some money or apologize for making a mistake.

I think most people are aware or would agree that cases in courts are not exactly fair. I mean, imagine that you as a private person feel that a huge company have wronged you, the chance of you winning is fairly slim, because the company not only have the ability to hire the best lawyers, but also have the ability to financially go through a long trial, which could completely ruin someone's life.

Another issue with it, is that justice is served through the idea of Eye for and Eye, and it completely misses the point. Which is that the focus ought to be on preventing crimes in the first place, punishing someone for a murder, doesn't help bring back the person that were killed. So I fully understand that people want justice, but way to much focus is put on this rather than on what can be done to prevent it in the first place.

We already know a lot of reasons why people kill each other or steal from each other. Poverty, humans emotions like jealousy, economic reasons, psychological issue etc. So we might not be able to prevent all, but imagine simply removing or reducing poverty and how much it would affect the amount of stealing that is going on? How many are no longer killed in armed robberies, the reduction in break ins and so forth.

Punishing people afterwards or as a scare tactic is only so effective, completely removing the cause for it in the first place is extremely effective. I mean, how many people gets killed over plastic bags on the street? I would assume the number is extremely low, because they have no value and there is enough of them to go around.

Another issue is that you would have to make some sort of exception to the rule, when it comes to people that suffers from mental illness issues, that they might have been born with and therefore hard to justify that they are to blame for it.
 
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Heyo

Veteran Member
Perhaps I do want to get into the afterlife punishment thing at least a little bit, too.

Are there any conceptions of Hell that aren't retributive? After all, how can you be rehabilitated if the punishment is infinite?

I guess Hell is used as a deterrent by many people, but then I guess we'd have to get into other aspects of justice such as proportionality of punishment to crime.
According the Catholics, there are no human souls in hell - yet. They believe that you go to purgatory for rehabilitation until the Final Judgement when Jesus makes the ultimate decision. Only when purgatory didn't rehabilitate you, you proceed to hell.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
I'm more a believer in pragmatism - that which is effective in reducing crime - as well as that which makes society a safer place within which to exist. I don't think retributive justice has such as an aim and it certainly doesn't in effect. Incarcerating more and more, who often then commit further crimes on release - because nothing has changed so as to ensure they don't continue on such a path - might make society safer whilst they are inside but doesn't overall.
 
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