resurrection

[Berachiah Ben Yisrael]

Rev 4:1..........Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hearafter. 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit.....

This is interesting...........

Was the spirit in him or was he in the spirit?

 

[Halcyon]

I'm curious, to people who believe in the bodily resurrection, why didn't Mary or the disciples on the road to Emmaus recognise him?

 

[Berachiah Ben Yisrael]

I'm curious, to people who believe in the bodily resurrection, why didn't Mary or the disciples on the road to Emmaus recognise him?

Luk 24:16 But their eyes were kept from recognizing him.

Good question. This also mentioned in Mark.............

Mar 16:12 After these things he was revealed in another form to two of them, as they walked, on their way into the country.

Another form? What with His old one?

You know if you just not 3 days ago saw someone beaten half to death and stabbed and hung from a death stake until dead then helped in cleaning, preparing and wrapping the body to be entombed. One might think if you saw this person that you would first find it hard to believe it be them and also to see them without blood would kinda shine a different light on ones complexion.

 

[Halcyon]

You know if you just not 3 days ago saw someone beaten half to death and stabbed and hung from a death stake until dead then helped in cleaning, preparing and wrapping the body to be entombed. One might think if you saw this person that you would first find it hard to believe it be them and also to see them without blood would kinda shine a different light on ones complexion.

Possibly, but I would have thought that if you'd spent every day of the last 3 years with a person, then carried out that grisly preparation you mention, you would recognise them instantly, even if you didn't believe your eyes?

 

[Berachiah Ben Yisrael]

Possibly, but I would have thought that if you'd spent every day of the last 3 years with a person, then carried out that grisly preparation you mention, you would recognise them instantly, even if you didn't believe your eyes?

Again possible, but we can't judge to know what people, other than ourselves, might react to in different circumstances and stimuli‘s.

We can assume and infer until the cow's come home. What about this. What if the flesh takes on a different look when translated into that perfect body. Maybe it be a slight change or it could be a radical one. It's still the same flesh and bone but gives a different appearance.

 

[Evolution_Not]

This is interesting...........

Was the spirit in him or was he in the spirit?

Even more interesting is the fact that when the body is in the grave you can go to
hell. I suspect we are talking 3 things, Body, soul, spirit which means I have to get off my dead butt and do some reading now that I have confused myself.

 

[Berachiah Ben Yisrael]

Even more interesting is the fact that when the body is in the grave you can go to hell.

I suspect we are talking 3 things, Body, soul, spirit which means I have to get off my dead butt and do some reading now that I have confused myself.

LOL....

I know that feeling..........

Not to confuse you any further but I would like to share with you that I believe that if one is in the grave that they are in hell already. If there be some way you could see the word “hell” in the Hebrew then you would see that it is Strong's #7585 and is "Sheol" which means the grave. I also want to understand what you mean by separating soul and spirit as though they are two different things. When I see "soul" I see the text speaking as to that individual as itself, singular. like in...........

Gen 12:13 Say, I pray thee, thou art my sister: that it may be well with me for thy sake; and my soul shall live because of thee.

….…..one can see that it is not some mysterious "soul" but rather himself that he see's benefiting from this little white lie. So instead of saying “and my soul shall live” one could simply say “and I shall live”.

Furthermore, What we call spirit in Hebrew is Strong’s #7307 which is “Ruach” and can have various connotations as to the contextual meaning of the writer. One of those meanings is one’s seat of emotions or simply breath or wind. This differs from that of the “Breath of life” for which all living creatures have and is known in the Hebrew as Strong’s #5397 and is “Neshamah”. There is also the Hebrew word “Nephesh” which is Strong’s #5315 which means those that live by breathing. Careful as we look as these items because of mans interpretations of these words. I try to see which word in Hebrew is used and then read as to which context it is meant and whether or not it can be substantiated by scripture. And then there is the word “Angel” which in Hebrew is the word “Malawk” which is Strong’s #4397. Now is a Malawk a spirit? Is the Malawk when in a form in which we can see be a Malawk which really only means dispatch or messenger and when we cannot see it then it is a spirit? Is this what it means to be in spirit? Are the Angels from Yah sacred? If so then we have to say they are sacred Angels. If we then have agreed that Angels can be and are spirits then we have to say they are sacred spirits. If we say this then we have to say it as it is in Hebrew which is Ruach Kodesh. Which translates to Holy Spirit. This then is telling us that all the Angels/Malawks of Yah are in fact Holy Spirits.

I know this is a lot of info at one time but chew slowly. :drool:

 

[starlite]

Masourga,

To begin with, Jesus himself repeatedly foretold that he would be raised from the dead. Early in his ministry he referred to it, saying: “Break down this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” “He was talking about the temple of his body.” (John 2:19-21) He also said that as Jonah was in the belly of a huge fish for three days he would be in the heart of the earth for three days. And subsequently on at least five different occasions he told his disciples that he would rise from the dead. (Matt. 12:22, 23) How can we understand all these plain statements if Jesus was not actually raised from the dead? True to his word...a resurrection needed to occur.

The change that came over Jesus’ little band of followers might be said in some respects to be the most powerful of all testimony to Jesus’ resurrection. It transformed frightened and puzzled men into bold and fearless evangelizers, ready to lay down their lives for their beliefs! That change was due to the fact that Jesus really did rise from the dead, as well as being due to God’s outpoured spirit, which came through Jesus.

Because Jesus was raised from the dead you can come to God in prayer, asking forgiveness for your sins, and you can pray in faith for God’s kingdom to come allowing for Christ Jesus' rulership to extend over the earth--Matt. 6:10

Oh, and yes he is very busy as King of God's heavenly government. He is even directing activities here on the earth to put an end to the problems that the human family is experiencing.

starlite

 

[Katzpur]

Possibly, but I would have thought that if you'd spent every day of the last 3 years with a person, then carried out that grisly preparation you mention, you would recognise them instantly, even if you didn't believe your eyes?

I've wondered the same thing myself. The only explanation I can come up with is that the idea that someone could be resurrected was so completely foreign and incomprehensible to them that it was as if they couldn't get past it to actually accept what they were seeing.

 

[Berachiah Ben Yisrael]

I've wondered the same thing myself. The only explanation I can come up with is that the idea that someone could be resurrected was so completely foreign and incomprehensible to them that it was as if they couldn't get past it to actually accept what they were seeing.

Yes, I agree. Its like being told something over and over your entire life to only find out that it is a bold face lie but you continue to believe it because you just can't bring yourself to see it for what it really is.

 

[islamcity]

hi ugys im new here could you just let me know whats going on

 

[Angelfire]

Could somebody explain to me why the physical body of Jesus was resurected when it was not nessessary ?

Because he said "He had the power to lay it down and he had the power to take it up again. He was just confirming to his disciples his word was true.




Peace

 

[Muffled]

Blood is not the same thing as bone. A natural body has blood flowing in and out of a beating heart. A spiritual body has no need of this life-sustaining function. A spiritual body is not necessarily non-corporeal. It is, however, incorruptable and immortal.

Jesus did have a body of flesh and bone after His resurrected. He himself pointed that out to His Apostles. When He ascended into Heaven forty days later, He had that same body. He will return in that same form someday. I guess the question is, did He shed that body somewhere between where the Apostles watched Him ascend and when He arrived in Heaven? If so, what did He do with it?

Just because blood isn't mentioned, that doesn't mean that there isn't any. It is just that flesh and bone are more solid for identifiying the corporeality of the risen Jesus.

I would tend to think there is disease because there are trees for healing along the new river Jordan. There is also death but only if the person is tired of physical life (after thousands of years) and needs a rest from it. In Paradise there is no disease or death because there is nothing corporal.

What would be the purpose of shedding the body? If Jesus sheds the body he is indistinguishable from the Father but here we have a statement by Stephen:

Mark 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

Of course it could simply be images of Father and Son that Stephen sees. I suspect there isn't solid evidence one way or the other.

 

[Muffled]

There was a major schism in Judaism between those who believed in the resurrection of the dead (Pharisees) and those who did not (Sadducees). The physical resurrection had to take place in a way the Saducees could not deny (But they did anyway, a clear indication that evidence and reality can't change a person's beliefs). The second reason is that it establishes the certainty of life in the spirit after death and therefore the certainty that God exists. This fundamental belief allows the disciples to be prepared for receiving the Holy Spirit. If Jesus stayed everybody would still be relying on His physical presence but with Him gone everyone now must find Jesus through His believers who have Him living inside.

 

[Katzpur]

Muffled, I'm trying to figure out exactly where we agree and where we disagree. Based on your answers, I'm kind of confused.

Just because blood isn't mentioned, that doesn't mean that there isn't any. It is just that flesh and bone are more solid for identifiying the corporeality of the risen Jesus.

Okay, we're talking about Christ's resurrected body, aren't we. I agree what you said about flesh and bone. Jesus pointed out that He had a body of flesh and bone. That's why I have such a hard time understanding why so many Christians seem to think that He only appeared to, but didn't really.

I would tend to think there is disease because there are trees for healing along the new river Jordan.

Again, we're talking about Jesus' resurrection and the body with which He appeared to His Apostles and others after His death. You're not saying that that body was subject to disease or death, are you? I wouldn't think that this is what you believe. I must be misunderstanding you.

There is also death but only if the person is tired of physical life (after thousands of years) and needs a rest from it.

You lost me completely with this statement. Would you mind explaining it. I won't be offended if you dumb it down for me, because I really don't have a clue what you're talking about.

In Paradise there is no disease or death because there is nothing corporal.

I guess that's our one clear point of disagreement. Why do you believe there is nothing corporeal?

What would be the purpose of shedding the body? If Jesus sheds the body he is indistinguishable from the Father but here we have a statement by Stephen:

Mark 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

Of course it could simply be images of Father and Son that Stephen sees. I suspect there isn't solid evidence one way or the other.

Here you seem to be contradicting yourself. I'm not saying you are, just that this is how it appears to me. Do you or do you not believe that Jesus shed the body with which He was resurrected prior to re-entering His Father's presence? You say that if He had shed His body, he would be indistinguishable from the Father, which would imply that you think He didn't. On the other hand, you said that in Paradise, there is nothing corporeal. If Jesus had a corporeal body of flesh and bone when He appeared to His Apostles on Easter morning and did not shed it thereafter, then there very clearly is something corporeal in Paradise.

 

[Evolution_Not]

LOL....

I know that feeling..........

Not to confuse you any further but I would like to share with you that I believe that if one is in the grave that they are in hell already. If there be some way you could see the word “hell” in the Hebrew then you would see that it is Strong's #7585 and is "Sheol" which means the grave. I also want to understand what you mean by separating soul and spirit as though they are two different things. When I see "soul" I see the text speaking as to that individual as itself, singular. like in...........

Gen 12:13 Say, I pray thee, thou art my sister: that it may be well with me for thy sake; and my soul shall live because of thee.

….…..one can see that it is not some mysterious "soul" but rather himself that he see's benefiting from this little white lie. So instead of saying “and my soul shall live” one could simply say “and I shall live”.

Furthermore, What we call spirit in Hebrew is Strong’s #7307 which is “Ruach” and can have various connotations as to the contextual meaning of the writer. One of those meanings is one’s seat of emotions or simply breath or wind. This differs from that of the “Breath of life” for which all living creatures have and is known in the Hebrew as Strong’s #5397 and is “Neshamah”. There is also the Hebrew word “Nephesh” which is Strong’s #5315 which means those that live by breathing. Careful as we look as these items because of mans interpretations of these words. I try to see which word in Hebrew is used and then read as to which context it is meant and whether or not it can be substantiated by scripture. And then there is the word “Angel” which in Hebrew is the word “Malawk” which is Strong’s #4397. Now is a Malawk a spirit? Is the Malawk when in a form in which we can see be a Malawk which really only means dispatch or messenger and when we cannot see it then it is a spirit? Is this what it means to be in spirit? Are the Angels from Yah sacred? If so then we have to say they are sacred Angels. If we then have agreed that Angels can be and are spirits then we have to say they are sacred spirits. If we say this then we have to say it as it is in Hebrew which is Ruach Kodesh. Which translates to Holy Spirit. This then is telling us that all the Angels/Malawks of Yah are in fact Holy Spirits.

I know this is a lot of info at one time but chew slowly. :drool:

OT:7585 Deut 32:22 Hell first use
she'owl (sheh-ole'); or sheol (sheh-ole'); from OT:7592; Hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat), including its accessories and inmates:
KJV - grave, hell, pit.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

OT:6900 Gen 35:20 GRAVE first use
qebuwrah (keb-oo-raw'); or qeburah (keb-oo-raw'); feminine passive participle of OT:6912; sepulture; (concretely) a sepulchre:
KJV - burial, burying place, grave, sepulchre.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

I agree that you go to hell whch had two partitions (o.t.) Torment and Paradise.
The point I was trying to make was the body is in the grave and not resurrected.
What is the form in hell? I would take spirit to mean an immaterial being/state
while a soul to be the individual.

Still chewing

 

[Katzpur]

I agree that you go to hell whch had two partitions (o.t.) Torment and Paradise.

I would like to explore this thought further, since my belief is similar. Where do you believe the Old Testament speaks of a Torment/Paradise division in Hell?

The point I was trying to make was the body is in the grave and not resurrected.

Ever? Or are you referring to a temporary state?

What is the form in hell? I would take spirit to mean an immaterial being/state while a soul to be the individual.

So are you saying that when an individual is in Hell, he or she is in spirit form but completely cognizant of his or her state or condition?

 

[Berachiah Ben Yisrael]

OT:7585 Deut 32:22 Hell first use
she'owl (sheh-ole'); or sheol (sheh-ole'); from OT:7592; Hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat), including its accessories and inmates:
KJV - grave, hell, pit.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

OT:6900 Gen 35:20 GRAVE first use
qebuwrah (keb-oo-raw'); or qeburah (keb-oo-raw'); feminine passive participle of OT:6912; sepulture; (concretely) a sepulchre:
KJV - burial, burying place, grave, sepulchre.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

I agree that you go to hell whch had two partitions (o.t.) Torment and Paradise.
The point I was trying to make was the body is in the grave and not resurrected.
What is the form in hell? I would take spirit to mean an immaterial being/state
while a soul to be the individual.

Still chewing

Please don't choke...........

I see you have a nice little bible program and I hope that it shows you the Strong's numbers by each word in each verse to show you the contextual meaning of such. Also I hope that you can further do a word search to show not only what it means but also how many times it is used in the bible and how many verses. Now if you can do this then you will see that, in the KJV, the word “hell” is used 54 times in 54 verses and always means grave or deeper/deepest grave in the OT but can mean either grave, deeper/deepest grave or Ge-Hinnom. The word “grave” is used 68 times in 65 verses. It shows up in the Hebrew as being spelled the same as hell which is “sheol”, which is nothing more than the grave. It also shows up to mean a sepulcher which is what it is. You can see them now at grave yards and most are white and look like little buildings. A hole in the ground is a grave. And further more it was used as to someone grave or as we say engrave something onto or into something. There maybe other meanings but I just wanted to make the point that both the words hell and grave have been very much so used interchangeable throughout the whole of scriptures where it has been translated into English but when you can see it as it was written in Hebrew you can see it is the same as sheol (the grave).

I see no partition as we gain paradice through death if we are dead in the Messiah Yahshua but for those that are not then they are tormented with the thoughts of whats to come on that day of judgment which is right around the corner. That will be the day that some will gain paradice by being allowed to enter into that city while others will gain the torment of having to put on their swimming trunks. You know. The big BBQ.

 

[S-word]

Quote....Katzpur
Quote:
Mark 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

I believe we are here looking at Acts 7: 55, and you are referring to Stephen of who it is said was filled with the Holy sprit. in verse 56, Stephen said, "Look! I see heaven opened and the Son of Man standing at the right side of God." This is the same Stephen who, in referrence to Abraham, said in Acts 7: 4, "After Abrahams Father died, God made him move to this land where you now live." Abraham was born when his father was around 70, and was 75 when he moved to the land of Canaan, this makes his Father 'Terah' about 145 at the time, and Genesis 11: 32, reveals that Terah died at the age of 205, about 60 years after his son Abraham moved to Canaan.

This Stephen who said he saw the heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right of God, also said in Acts 7: 15, "Then Jacob went to Egypt where he and his sons died. Their bodies were taken to Shechem (Wrong, only the remains of Joseph were taken to Shechem see Joshua 24: 32.) and buried in the grave which Abraham had brought from the clan of Hamor for a sum of money.
Abraham did not buy the grave site from Hamor of Shechem, but from Ephron the Hittite from Machpelah east of Mamre, for 400 peices of silver, and it was there that Jacob and his other sons were buried. Concerning the buriel of Jacob, see Genesis 50: 13, they carried the body of Jacob to Canaan and buried it in the cave at Machpelah east of Mamre in the field that Abraham had bought from Ephron the Hittite. This is the Stephen that you referred to, who you erroneously stated could be found in the gospel of Mark.

 

[Katzpur]

S-word,

You are quoting the wrong person. I did not say any of what you've attributed to me.