Resurrection of Christ: Literal fact or spiritual reality?

[Dawnofhope]

Sorry, I still don't get it. Science and reason? Yet, you believe Jesus was virgin born?

you might like to read a post I place on the Baha'i DIR. It resulted from a thread open for general discussion.

A Baha'i perspective on Jesus as the 'Son of God'

Is Jesus the Son of God?

In regards to the virgin birth that would be best described as a 'Divine mystery' rather than a literal belief. Knowing that God is omnipotent and All-powerful He is capable of transcending the laws of science. That is what we call a miracle but He rarely performs them. If He wanted to He could appear to you right now and directly answer your question. I doubt if He will because He has provided you a mind with the capacity to investigate such matters for yourself. Sometimes we have to put our questions in the too hard basket and come back to them later. Some simply do not get answered in this life time.

So did God act miraculously in regard to the virgin birth? Jesus certainly was miraculous but the question you ask can neither be proved or disproved. What's clear is that His greatness was on account of His Divine Perfections and virtues. If it were on account of having no father, then Adam would be greater because He had neither a father or mother.

On the other hand we can reasonably disprove the account of a physical resurrection because the story includes rising up into the sky/heaven. However we can be quite certain that the heavens above (sky) is not the heaven we go to after we die.

Hope that helps.

After 3 days the disciples started teaching and brought life to Jesus' message? No, it wasn't until Pentecost when the supposed "Helper" the "Holy Spirit" descended on them.

I think we need to consider it as a process rather than an event. The process culminated in an event at Pentecost.

But you believe that the "Spirit of Truth" that was to come was Baha'u'llah almost 2000 years later.

If we examine John 12:12-13 it sounds very much like a man and could be applied to any Manifestation of God. In this instance it is likely to refer to Baha'u'llah (The Glory of God) as through HIs teachings the mysteries of the Gospels are made clear as well as complete fulfilment of prophecy.

The other thing is that Jesus' followers were all down in the dumps until 3 days later. Why? Because the tomb was empty. Yes, an empty tomb, no body.

I think its most likely a metaphor rather than an actual event, though agree it could be both literally true and allegorical.

Where did Jesus' body go? I'm sure you have an allegorical explanation for this too, but the NT writers made it sound like it was Jesus back from the dead.

I can tell where His body didn't go and that is up through the stratosphere through space. His Body was most likely in the possession of the Romans, Jews or Christians.

He said to one of them to touch him, that he was not a spirit... that he was flesh and bone?

Ever wondered why Thomas would not recognise him by sight but then could be placing his hands in Jesus' wounds? Why does placing his hands inside the wounds give faith and not simply seeing the wounds? If it were to do with Jesus being physically present why ask Thomas to touch his wounds rather than hold his hand?

How did you wiggle out of that?

I'm just another person who enjoys discussing these matters. The Baha'i faith either stands or it doesn't. It doesn't need my help

And speaking of wiggling, since Baha'is believe Islam is also the truth, do you believe their explanation of Jesus' death and resurrection?

And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain. Quran 4:57

This surah referring to the crucifixion of Christ is interpreted literally by the most Muslims as the stories in the NT about Jesus resurrection are interpreted literally. Of course its just another way of saying although they killed Him, His Spirit remains alive.

Many Muslims will insist that the Gospels are corrupted and unreliable. The Baha'i regard both the gospels and Quran as sacred texts to be viewed with reverence and authentic.

Of course he appears and disappears, walks through walls, and floats off into the sky, but before the resurrection he walked on water, so his body wasn't ever a "normal" physical body. Or, it's a little mythology thrown in.

Once you accept that His body was 'normal' as He was also the 'Son of man' then the metaphor and allegory throughout these accounts becomes even clearer.

Did he heal the sick, raise the dead and all the other "miracles"?

Perhaps. However the main concern is that through the Teachings and Covenant that Christ brought we can arise from the death of unbelief, walk the spiritual path, and have spiritual perception and insight.

Or, is it gospel writers adding some things to spice up the story?

The Gospel writers were inspiring the Faithful, not trying to provide an historic account. They are very spiritual books filled with hidden intrinsic spiritual meanings.

But to believe they wrote the gospels as if they were real events, then Baha'is come along and say those things were all allegory? That doesn't make sense to me.

That's the spiritual journey in investigating these matters many of us take. At the end of the day it is between you and God where that journey takes you. All the best with that.

 

[Dawnofhope]

You've already made up your mind

That's as true for me as it is for you.

What you are listening to is what the liberal media such as HuffPo brainwashed you into believing

I have no idea what you are talking about. I don't live in the USA. I'm a medical doctor so maybe that's where my 'brainwashing' came from.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Other religious views have to have another explanation of the resurrection. Early Christians had various views. Those that didn't have the view that Jesus was crucified, died and then rose again were considered heretics. So where did this "orthodox" view come from? It has to be the NT. Did Peter and Paul and the gospel writers ever write anything to make the resurrection sound like an allegory? No. It is easy to question and doubt? Yes, very much so. Did the writers try and cover their bases in the things they said? It seems so to me. Paul says that if Christ hasn't risen then Christians should be the most pitied.

I've asked this of the Baha'is before. If the Baha'is are right, then, from the beginning, the orthodox teaching of the NT and Christ' resurrection is wrong. They never taught the "real" story, that the resurrection was an allegory, and they never knew it was only an allegory. All those early Christians burned, thrown to lions, and crucified? All for an allegory?

If the "real" truth from God was that all religions are one, then too bad Jesus didn't say so and make that clear? He could have said that the Jewish God and the Roman gods are in "essence" one. And that later Mohammad would come and then Baha'u'llah and their religions are all one also. It could have saved a lot of trouble. So, I think, either the Baha'is are wrong or the writers of the NT got it wrong right from the start. No allegory, the NT is either embellished, made up stuff that led people to believe Jesus is God and rose from the dead... or maybe, just maybe, it is what really happened.

Jesus did say and make clear all religions are one when He said.....

John 5:46

"For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me".

That all religions would one day become one Christ also said...

John 10:16

"And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."

And Jesus foretold One to come after Him

John 16:7

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Jesus left plenty of clear guidance.But for latter generations like 2,000 years after His crucifixion, it was left for Baha'u'llah to clarify

John 16:12-13

I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth

The New Testament covers the Jewish, Christian, Muhammaden, Babi and Bahá'í Revelations. Even Sunni and Shia are mentioned.

One needs to know where to look. But the authenticity of the Bible is indisputable once one understands how it all fits together so perfectly.

It was also a Book of parables and people had not much capacity to understand many things which is why Baha'u'llah came and Baha'u'llah is the only Manifestation that speaks plainly. Read the Quran and Bible and they are hard to fathom but Baha'u'llah's language is direct and clear.

John 16:25

"These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father."

The Great Day of God has dawned and as its light shines more brightly, more will awaken to the Beauty of Baha'u'llah.

The scientific and technological advances herald and testify to the greatness of this day, a day greater than all the other centuries of the past ages combined.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I am not sure one can actually. I could say literal but that has serious problems, I could say metaphor, symbolism and that too has problems. It's an interesting problem that the question itself is a part of. I actually know the correct answer but saying it is then part of the problem with your original question. It's like saying no amount of information can give anther person the understanding needed to actually taste an orange. I can describe what an orange tastes like but it's not actually experiencing the tasting of it. Here is the weird part of this text to me, the writers were full aware of this. It's more complex, clearer, and more grounded than contemporary psychology and cognitive science imterpersonally. That's actually in contrast to contemporary thinking, on the non believer side of the coin as well as on the side of the believer side of the coin. Religion has a lot of theological PHDs as well as science does. The writers aren't believers or non believers they have a reference point outside where they are standing as they ask and write, which causes the question to arrise in the first place. You have to ask is Paul insane in his road to Damascus experience? Or does he write in a certain way in an attempt to convey The realness of experience in which he is talking about becuase He conveys it perfectly. What is insanity experiencing? And what happens if someone conveys that experience but clearly they are not insane? Karl jung was someone who conveyed a lot like what is being conveyed in Paul's road to Damascus experience. Is john Muir literal or metaphorical, symbolic, in his writings? The tricky part of art at the end of the day!!

Paul who never saw the resurrected Christ framed the mystical experience he had in these terms.

"It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.
And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.
For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me."
2 Corinthians 12:1-6

Is this the orange which you taste?

 

[Dawnofhope]

Any of these legends are possible. But the resurrection? That is just a myth!

No doubts or second guessing about that one.

 

[psychoslice]

Who cares a rats if he actually resurrected or not, its what we do that's more important, Jesus is an example that's all, he is not a real person, he is nothing more than a metaphor, so lets not worship the idol called Jesus.

 

[james bond]

That's as true for me as it is for you.



I have no idea what you are talking about. I don't live in the USA. I'm a medical doctor so maybe that's where my 'brainwashing' came from.

Well, why ask the question then? Are you Christian? If so, let's discuss the Bible scholars. Which Bible scholars are you subscribing to?

My bad on the second one. I'm an American computer scientist and an familiar with Christian scientists accomplishments and today's creation scientists accomplishments. I'm confident I can figure out science, but that's for another time as this is RD.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Well, why ask the question then?

Because religious fundamentalism whether Christian or Islamic, is arguably the greatest barrier to achieving peace in the world.

Are you Christian?

I'm a Baha'i

If so, let's discuss the Bible scholars. Which Bible scholars are you subscribing to?

As your Christian creationist scientists would hold little appeal for me, the scholars I read will have little appeal for you.

I am wondering if having a discussion about the pros and cons of our respective positions about Christ's resurrection will for the best. I suspect it will be an exercise in frustration and futility for both of us.

Maybe a better starting point would be for us to share with each other how we came to our respective faiths. If there's some connection through this simple exercise then we may have a platform to be able to talk further.

My bad on the second one.

Thanks for admitting that. I really think you need to ask yourself why you said what you did. It was extreme IMHO? I am not 'brainwashed'. I simply have a different perspective about the God, Jesus, and Bible we both believe in.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Hope you got some rest.

I had plenty of rest thank you I have a life to live. Strange thing that!

That is not what i meant.
Our eternal souls are prodigal sons and daughters.
Like the verse in Job 2:9 that isn't there anymore.

There is a phenomenon in psychiatry where we talk about loosened associations. Its a condition where ideas that have little connection with each other can take on profound significance. This state can be a double edged sword. It can lead to creativity, to invention, new discoveries.......or of course it can lead to madness.

So there is this fine line between mysticism and madness.

Paul described the experience well:

'It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.
And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.
For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me."
2 Corinthians 12:1-6

The evidence points to something different.

What?

In actuality i misspoke.
The obvious verses were taken out but because the ones doing the editing did not understand the language of the soul in which it was written it was impossible to destroy the message without banning the books altogether.

So you have a theology that can not be justified by scripture?

If the foundation is Christ and him crucified and the Christ is within each of us, then the Christ is crucified afresh everyday for our sake on the four corners of the cross called the earth.

I didn't see that coming. I thought He had been crucified just the once. This sounds extraordinarily painful. Perhaps it is the experience of the ascetics you refer?

 

[Dawnofhope]

Who cares a rats if he actually resurrected or not, its what we do that's more important, Jesus is an example that's all, he is not a real person, he is nothing more than a metaphor, so lets not worship the idol called Jesus.

I care. Religious fundamentalism a great barrier to achieving peace in the world.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Here is what I think happened. God, the Old Testament Lord, came into the world as a man (Jesus) and preached about Jewish laws, customs, and moral issues, all of which was part of Jewish tradition found in Jewish holy books. Jesus was not the son of God, Jesus was God. A big problem for Jesus (God) was his proclamation of divinity and references to “the kingdom of God.” By exposing his divinity, Jesus threatened Emperor Tiberius of Roman. Like other Roman Emperors, Romans regarded Tiberius as divine; he was god of the Roman world. No one could threaten or question his divinity. Jews were not responsible for the death of Jesus; Roman soldiers murdered him. We can imagine what happened when Emperor Tiberius got world of Jesus, a Jewish wise man, making statements about his divinity. Moreover, Jesus’ statements made about the kingdom of God would surely anger Tiberius, who considered the Roman Empire to be his holy kingdom. Subsequently, the Roman army received orders to execute Jesus.

The method by which Roman soldiers carried out their orders is not a pretty picture. It does not fit the Jesus myth of Christian martyrdom on the cross, followed by a spectacular resurrection. According to my dream, a husky Roman soldier stood over Jesus on his knees beating him with his fists. As the soldier struck Jesus repeatedly in the face, a Roman officer stood nearby watching. Thereafter, Jesus lay on the ground. The story in Revelation 11 about the two witnesses describes events as follows, “Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes from the abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.” (Rev. 11:7). The two witnesses are the duality of God. It would not have been difficult for Satan to possess Roman soldiers and make them attack and murder Jesus. They had already received orders to execute Jesus.

The soldiers did not put the body of Jesus in a tomb. He lay on the ground dead for about three days and one half days before ascending into heaven. (Rev. 11:8-9) For leaders of the new Jesus movement, the Roman murder of Jesus and disrespect for the body would not be a pleasant or appealing story; it had no romantic twists or glorious moments. Subsequently, the story was revised.

What an interesting interpretation of revelation. Thank you for sharing.

I have a different understanding of revelation 11:7-9.
The bodies refer to Muhammad and His chosen successor Islam. Islam became corrupted under the Umayyad Caliphate and the Holy teachings of ****e Islam became like a dead body as this beast of a regime utterly corrupted this Faith and led to militant Islam and quickly one became one of the largest empires in world history.

Umayyad Caliphate - Wikipedia

I do agree that Jesus wasn't physically resurrected. I would understand His Divinity and station of Son of God somewhat differently.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Resurrection of Christ Literal Fact or Spiritual reality?

Neither. Nothing literal about something that contradicts the gospel of Jesus which was the Tanach. As long as one needs the NT and faith as evidence, nothing can be literal.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Who cares a rats if he actually resurrected or not, its what we do that's more important, Jesus is an example that's all, he is not a real person, he is nothing more than a metaphor, so lets not worship the idol called Jesus.

That Jesus is a real person, I am aware that he is not. (Ecclesiastes 7:5,6) The point is, was he a real person or was he not? Since there is no other option but the NT and faith, which one to you take to believe?

 

[Dawnofhope]

We are no longer living in the times of ignorance though, are we? Science has confirmed much of scripture, contrary to popular belief. What we reject is not true science, but the unproven ideas of men who seem bent on giving credit to the creation for its own existence, rather that to the Master Designer of it all.

I have no problem with those in past ages that had little understanding of science. Levels of education and literacy were low. Many of the so called educated were the priests who taught to those who knew no better. It would be unfair to judge them by todays standards.

Now we do have science and immeasurably greater access to knowledge to which this cyberspace medium bears ample testimony such ignorance is harder to justify.

This thread is about one of those areas were science and religion intersect and a belief in a physically resurrected Jesus has become untenable.

As Paul said..."even those who exchanged the truth of God for the lie and venerated and rendered sacred service to the creation rather than the One who created, who is blessed forever. Amen." (Romans 1:25)

I understand the Jehovah witnesses even have their own bible! Is that correct?

'The New World Translation is unique in one thing – it is the first intentional, systematic effort at producing a complete version of the Bible that is edited and revised for the specific purpose of agreeing with a group's doctrine. The Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Watchtower Society realized that their beliefs contradicted Scripture. So, rather than conforming their beliefs to Scripture, they altered Scripture to agree with their beliefs.'

Is the New World Translation a valid version of the Bible?

Here's the same verse from the King James Version:

"Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen."

The Jehovah Witnesses must consider themselves very wise! They write their own bible as well as having this unique understanding of the book of revelation that only they can see the wisdom of.

For earlier in the same chapter St Paul writes:

"Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things." Romans 1:22-23

I am sure that if there was internet in Jesus' day, he too would have been the brunt of 'considerable criticism by the wider Jewish community'. It was bad enough locally......word spread and the false accusations began. The people went from welcoming an incoming King, to crying out for his execution in the short space of a week. I wonder how that happened?

At least every eye would see Him!

"As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth;
And all flesh shall see the salvation of God." Luke 3:4-6

When you break down the criticism, you can see that we are no part of "mainstream Christianity" because we realized that "mainstream" doesn't mean correct.

To be fair the reason I have challenged you on this is simply to bring into question the JW interpretation of apocalyptic scripture. It makes little sense to me, its been questioned by the rest of Christians, and it has proven to be a source of confusion and error. I think to say that its prediction rather than prophecy is a little weak.

In our discussion we are best to consider known facts lest we speculate too wildly. I had not intended to bring up the allegations of child abuse and treatment of one congregational member by another. We've discussed the blood issue and I'm fine with that. Clearly the JWs find themselves on the defensive from the medical profession and I have seen you in turn level some extremely harsh criticisms at institutions that surround our health system.

On thorough investigation we came to understand that "Christianity" had gone astray in much the same way that Judaism did....adopting all manner of 'man-made traditions' led the "church" away from Christ. (Acts 20:29, 30)

I would agree but probably for different reasons.

They are not the police and if a crime has been committed, then there is encouragement to take the matter to the proper authorities.

Just for the record I feel there is a moral obligation for mandatory reporting of all instances of child sexual abuse.

Adrian, are you suggesting that Judaism 101 is going to give you information on what the ancients believed about life and death?

Yes

Have the Jews ever blessed the name of the one who came in the name of their God? Are they likely to any time soon?

Do you see me holding a grudge? I've forgiven the Jews (not that I had any ill feeling) and I'm certain God has too. Mark 3:28-30

"Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation."

Jesus at in His darkest time even forgave the Romans:

"Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots."
Luke 23:34

In many respects the Jews excel the Christians despite the New Covenant.

You say such strange contradictory things at times adrianhindes...."there's no heaven in the sky"?....How do you know that?
Heaven is where Jesus said his Father dwells......he returned there to prepare a place for his disciples (John 14:1-4)....it is an actual locality, invisible to mortal eyes. One needs a spiritual body to exist in God's presence.

There is Heaven but would you kindly direct me to where it might be in the supernal realm? How did that physically resurrected body of Jesus hold up along the journey?

Christendom doesn't have a good thing to say about JW's...period. (John 15:18-21)
Do we accuse them of being a pagan religion?

Its just another example of how Christianity is so divided with one sect or denomination hating the other. Where's the love? Where's the unity? A divided body can not possible heal the ills of our global community.

That is a matter of interpretation, isn't it? How real was the Kingdom to Christ's first disciples? Could they see it? Did they anticipate its benefits? Absolutely! Its King was standing right in front of them as the best possible ruler of mankind, yet they had to watch him be murdered and wait for God to enlighten them about the future as to how that Kingdom was going to "come" and how God's will was going to be done "on earth as it is in heaven". No one died disappointed because they understood that death would not come between them and their Lord. He had to power to conquer death as they saw with their own eyes.

That is right. It is also the way the early Baha'is felt as they endured 75 years of persecution under the Persians and Ottomans.

As Paul said in 1 Thessalonian 4:15-16....
"For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first."

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:" 1 Thessalonians 4:16

That may also mean that Christianity has become so confused and confounded with dogmas and doctrines of its own making that those who no longer believe in Christ will be first to recognise Him. Now that's a sobering thought!

Maybe...or maybe not. We have waited this long and the events of late are making a lot of people very nervous about the future. Time will tell I guess....won't it?

Should you ever wonder what the Baha'is have to say about the verses from Daniel and Revelation....

 

[rusra02]

Christ did appear to Paul. He reported on this; "But as I was traveling and getting near to Damascus, about midday, suddenly out of heaven a great light flashed all around me, and I fell to the ground and heard a voice say to me: ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?’ I answered: ‘Who are you, Lord?’ And he said to me: ‘I am Jesus the Naz·a·reneʹ, whom you are persecuting."
(Acts 22:6-8)
I think to claim the miracle of the resurrection didn't occur because it was...miraculous, is unconvincing, especially in the light of strong evidence that it did occur. As Paul testified: "But if Christ has not been raised up, our preaching is certainly in vain, and your faith is also in vain. Moreover, we are also found to be false witnesses of God, because we have given witness against God by saying that he raised up the Christ, whom he did not raise up if the dead are really not to be raised up. For if the dead are not to be raised up, neither has Christ been raised up. Further, if Christ has not been raised up, your faith is useless; you remain in your sins." (1 Corinthians 15:14-17)

 

[rusra02]

Other religious views have to have another explanation of the resurrection. Early Christians had various views. Those that didn't have the view that Jesus was crucified, died and then rose again were considered heretics. So where did this "orthodox" view come from? It has to be the NT. Did Peter and Paul and the gospel writers ever write anything to make the resurrection sound like an allegory? No. It is easy to question and doubt? Yes, very much so. Did the writers try and cover their bases in the things they said? It seems so to me. Paul says that if Christ hasn't risen then Christians should be the most pitied.

I've asked this of the Baha'is before. If the Baha'is are right, then, from the beginning, the orthodox teaching of the NT and Christ' resurrection is wrong. They never taught the "real" story, that the resurrection was an allegory, and they never knew it was only an allegory. All those early Christians burned, thrown to lions, and crucified? All for an allegory?

If the "real" truth from God was that all religions are one, then too bad Jesus didn't say so and make that clear? He could have said that the Jewish God and the Roman gods are in "essence" one. And that later Mohammad would come and then Baha'u'llah and their religions are all one also. It could have saved a lot of trouble. So, I think, either the Baha'is are wrong or the writers of the NT got it wrong right from the start. No allegory, the NT is either embellished, made up stuff that led people to believe Jesus is God and rose from the dead... or maybe, just maybe, it is what really happened.

I agree with what you wrote, except that Jesus is not God. The Bible says God resurrected Jesus.(Acts 2:24)

 

[David T]

Paul who never saw the resurrected Christ framed the mystical experience he had in these terms.

"It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.
And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.
For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me."
2 Corinthians 12:1-6

Is this the orange which you taste?

Yes. Mystics in what ever tradition have a common point to dialog from experience. If the conversations turn into a dialec of just talking at each other them we are just confusion feeding confusion. And this site along with many other sites just adds to it.

 

[allfoak]

There is a phenomenon in psychiatry where we talk about loosened associations. Its a condition where ideas that have little connection with each other can take on profound significance. This state can be a double edged sword. It can lead to creativity, to invention, new discoveries.......or of course it can lead to madness.

So there is this fine line between mysticism and madness.

Paul described the experience well:

'It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.
And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.
For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me."
2 Corinthians 12:1-6

Paul described it in other places as well.
I am all too familiar with the madness issue.

Robert Pirsig was one of my favorite authors when i was a boy.
I read these two books several times.

Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Book by Robert M. Pirsig

Lila: An Inquiry into Morals
Novel by Robert M. Pirsig

 

[allfoak]

I would argue that our soul progress through the worlds of God once we physically die.

The evidence points to something different.

What?

The Zohar speaks of the transmutation of souls over many lifetimes for the purpose of coming to perfection.
The Gospel of Thomas when properly understood, speaks of almost nothing else.
There are other references but i would have to fact check what i know before i can post any others.
If need be, ask i will hunt some others down.

The issue seems to be when talking to people about this, is that it becomes very difficult to separate the consciousness we are in this world from our soul self.
They are not the same.
When i die i return to my soul from which i originated.
I am just a small part of a much greater self.

 

[allfoak]

So you have a theology that can not be justified by scripture?

Misunderstood again.
I am pretty well convinced that while conversing with people, misunderstood is about as good as it gets.
Much of the time it is a complete lack of understanding.
I find that i misunderstand others often.

My point was that the message is no longer obvious but because it is written in the language of the soul it will never be completely removed.
It makes little difference to me anymore how corrupt the Bible is, since i now understand that each one of us carries the Word (the Logos) within ourselves.

I didn't see that coming. I thought He had been crucified just the once. This sounds extraordinarily painful. Perhaps it is the experience of the ascetics you refer?

You are looking at this from a literal perspective.
The crucifixion of which i speak is metaphorical.
It describes The Word becoming flesh, changing the flesh to Spirit and then returning.
Jesus never hung on a cross.
And he was not Born of a virgin.