Resurrection of Christ: Literal fact or spiritual reality?

[Dawnofhope]

Has anyone caught their tail yet?

Not on RF yet? We just go round in circles amused at the irony of it all.

 

[leibowde84]

Right. The difference is when I find what appears to be a contradiction, I continue studying other passages until I find an answer that eliminates to supposed contradiction. IMO, those who start with the presupposition that the Bible has contradictions, do not continue to study the problem. So far I have always found a solution.

Well, if you start with the conclusion that the Bible is true, I can understand your position. But, when an apparent contradiction, continuing to study other passages until you find an answer that eliminates the supposed contradiction is a clear case of confirmation bias. But, if that doesn't bother you, that is your prerogative.

There is a lot of truth in your quote from Osho

What quote was that?

 

[omega2xx]

Well, if you start with the conclusion that the Bible is true, I can understand your position. But, when an apparent contradiction, continuing to study other passages until you find an answer that eliminates the supposed contradiction is a clear case of confirmation bias. But, if that doesn't bother you, that is your prerogative.

A "supposed contradiction" does not mean it is a contradiction. With enough study and understanding, they can be shown not to be contradictory.

What quote was that?

It was the one stuck on at the end or the post I replied to.

 

[CG Didymus]

Right. The difference is when I find what appears to be a contradiction, I continue studying other passages until I find an answer that eliminates to supposed contradiction. IMO, those who start with the presupposition that the Bible has contradictions, do not continue to study the problem. So far I have always found a solution.

Here we have the ultimate contradiction... Did Jesus rise physically from the dead? Or, was it only symbolic? To me, if it's only symbolic, it makes everything in the NT irrelevant and virtually useless. If He did rise physically and everything in the NT is true and reliable, then Jesus is the only way and all other religions are false. So there's a lot riding on this OP.

However, we do have contradictions is "proving" Jesus rose from the dead. Not one the gospel accountants says the same thing. The only person in all accounts is Mary. Where is her "eye witness" account? The other guys, except John, weren't there. Who told them what happened and why are the stories different? If they all asked Mary, they should be consistent with what Mary saw.

Speaking of dead rising, the Baha'is say Jesus didn't rise physically, but what about the gospel that says several people came out of the grave and walked around? True event? Is it verified by other people that saw these dead people wandering around? If not, why should a reasonable person not think this is just an embellishment added in and not a true event? Thanks.

 

[Ekleipsis]

Idk

I do know that after a Nazarene's vows to God are over ( It is finished ! )

They cut off their hair and beard, making them unrecognizable to most anybody

 

[omega2xx]

Here we have the ultimate contradiction... Did Jesus rise physically from the dead? Or, was it only symbolic? To me, if it's only symbolic, it makes everything in the NT irrelevant and virtually useless. If He did rise physically and everything in the NT is true and reliable, then Jesus is the only way and all other religions are false. So there's a lot riding on this OP.

How do you know it was only symbolic?

However, we do have contradictions is "proving" Jesus rose from the dead. Not one the gospel accountants says the same thing. The only person in all accounts is Mary. Where is her "eye witness" account? The other guys, except John, weren't there. Who told them what happened and why are the stories different? If they all asked Mary, they should be consistent with what Mary saw.

Omitting information cannot be a contradiction. The resurrection is mentioned in all 4 gospels and several of the epistles.

Speaking of dead rising, the Baha'is say Jesus didn't rise physically

Why do you believe Bahai and not the Gospels?

but what about the gospel that says several people came out of the grave and walked around? True event? Is it verified by other people that saw these dead people wandering around? If not, why should a reasonable person not think this is just an embellishment added in and not a true event? Thanks.

The Bible says it happened. If you can't prove it didn't, you can't know it did not. All you can do is offer your personal opinion.

 

[leibowde84]

A "supposed contradiction" does not mean it is a contradiction. With enough study and understanding, they can be shown not to be contradictory.

You said "when a contradiction appears". I didn't think you meant "supposed contradiction". Do you mean when you see something that appears to you to be a contradiction or something that others might consider to be a contradiction doesn't appear to be a contradiction to you?

 

[omega2xx]

You said "when a contradiction appears". I didn't think you meant "supposed contradiction". Do you mean when you see something that appears to you to be a contradiction or something that others might consider to be a contradiction doesn't appear to be a contradiction to you?

No. As I study the Bible some things do appear to be contradictory. When I find verses that SEEMS to be contradictory, I stop what i am studying and research all of the Bible to try and find an answer. To date I have always found a satisfactory answer.

If you would like to post some verses that SEEM contradictory, I will try and show you why they are not.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Really? And tell us, how exactly do you know this? "Inspiration" is not relative to just one facet of input.

I never claimed or implied that the people who wrote the Bible were dishonest, and I'm sick and tired of your utter willingness to disregard what I actually do post by putting words in my mouth that I never said nor implied.

You need to stop twisting my words. The writers of the Bible claimed inspiration and direct communications from God. By saying they are off, CLEARLY you ARE saying they were dishonest or deluded.

Stop piffling around and decide if Jesus is Lord or deluded.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Numbers 12:6; Job 33:14,15; Job 4:12,13; Psalms 89:20; etc.

Where does the word(s) for ONLY appear in these passages? Every Rabbi and pastor in the world would have preached so if the word ONLY was in the Tanakh. Do you want examples of where God says He appeared to people?

 

[BilliardsBall]

I'm sorry, but there is nothing in the Bible that makes a claim of the specific date as you state here. So, can you explain what you mean by this?

These are some of my notes on the subject.



Is Israel In God’s Plan?



“…As for you [Ezekiel], lie down…for the number of days…three hundred and ninety days (for Israel’s sin)…When you have completed these…I have assigned it to you for forty days (for Judah’s sin)…a day for each year.”—Ezekiel 4:4-6



Did God Err In The Bible?



606 BC …Judah/Israel taken captive to Babylon



536 BC …Cyrus allows return to Israel



…So, only 70 years of 430 fulfilled? (Atheists point out with glee this scripture came up empty)



"Seven Times Punishment"



“…And if by these things [sins] you are not turned to Me, but act with hostility against Me, then I will act with hostility against you; and I, even I, will strike you seven times for your sins.”—Leviticus 23:23-24



Ezekiel “Counts”



70 years of captivity



430 – 70 (captivity) = 360 years left



360 x 7 (times punishment) = 2,520 years



Going from the date in history (recorded in the Bible and outside the Bible also) of the Babylonian diaspora = May 15, 1948 AD! (Israel born in a day by decree of United Nations, this occurred at 12:01 AM or April 15 in Gentile reckoning; the Jewish date began at sundown or dark the night before)



Longer look:



+ Leviticus 26:14-46 says Israel will pay seven times over for disobedience



…If also after these things you do not obey Me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.



Ezekiel 4:1-8 demonstrate 430 days/years of punishment in captivity/”scattered” for disobedience

«NOW you son of man, get yourself a brick, place it before you and inscribe a city on it, Jerusalem.

2

«Then lay siege against it, build a siege wall, raise up a ramp, pitch camps and place battering rams against it all around.

3

«Then get yourself an iron plate and set it up as an iron wall between you and the city, and set your face toward it so that it is under siege, and besiege it. This is a sign to the house of Israel.

4

«As for you, lie down on your left side and lay the iniquity of the house of Israel on it; you shall bear their iniquity for the number of days that you lie on it.

5

«For I have assigned you a number of days corresponding to the years of their iniquity, three hundred and ninety days; thus you shall bear the iniquity of the house of Israel.

6

«When you have completed these, you shall lie down a second time, but on your right side and bear the iniquity of the house of Judah; I have assigned it to you for forty days, a day for each year.

7

«Then you shall set your face toward the siege of Jerusalem with your arm bared and prophesy against it.

8

«Now behold, I will put ropes on you so that you cannot turn from one side to the other until you have completed the days of your siege.



in 606 BCE; Judah/Israel was transported away from home—Cyrus conquered Babylon after 70 years and said return in 536 BC, yet only 50,000 devout Jews returned (Jeremiah 25:11 mentions these 70 years’ captivity about which Daniel prayed for wisdom as their end approached)



taking 430 minus 70 years of warning/captivity equals 360 years (multiplied times seven for punishment of Leviticus) = 360 x 7 x 360 [days] or 907,200 days from Cyrus’ decree to May 15, 1948 AD…when Israel was declared a nation!!!

 

[leibowde84]

"Seven Times Punishment"



“…And if by these things [sins] you are not turned to Me, but act with hostility against Me, then I will act with hostility against you; and I, even I, will strike you seven times for your sins.”—Leviticus 23:23-24

Alright, I'm trying to follow this. I appreciate the detailed explanation. But, I am stuck on one assumption you are making that seems faulty.

Where do you get the "seven times punishment" from the passage you quoted (I think your citation is wrong, btw ... can you provide the correct one so I can look it up?)? It days "I will strike you seven times for your sins. It doesn't say that God will multiply your punishment by seven, much less 70.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Alright, I'm trying to follow this. I appreciate the detailed explanation. But, I am stuck on one assumption you are making that seems faulty.

Where do you get the "seven times punishment" from the passage you quoted (I think your citation is wrong, btw ... can you provide the correct one so I can look it up?)? It days "I will strike you seven times for your sins. It doesn't say that God will multiply your punishment by seven, much less 70.

I understand. I've seen multiple translations that say "seven times over" or just plain "seven times". Seven times in a row rather than seven times simultaneously would solve the issue, yes?

What you really must do, though, is STOP. Consider the probability that the numbers worked out to May 15, 1948 by CHANCE, considering that no one put together the seven times bit with the Ezekiel prophecy until responding to atheists' accusations.

Follow:

1. Atheists see the Ezekiel prophecy expired and say, "Bible prophecy is wrong".

2. Some Christians deal with this, one of them meditates, finally recalls the seven times statements of the Torah.

3. He does the math and WHAT DO YOU KNOW, the day the United Nations chooses to make Israel an official Jewish state, is the day the math reveals . . . a typical Bible prophecy (you understand in hindsight and wonder at God, rather than use foresight, to say, play the stock market).

Amazing.

 

[leibowde84]

I understand. I've seen multiple translations that say "seven times over" or just plain "seven times". Seven times in a row rather than seven times simultaneously would solve the issue, yes?

What you really must do, though, is STOP. Consider the probability that the numbers worked out to May 15, 1948 by CHANCE, considering that no one put together the seven times bit with the Ezekiel prophecy until responding to atheists' accusations.

Follow:

1. Atheists see the Ezekiel prophecy expired and say, "Bible prophecy is wrong".

2. Some Christians deal with this, one of them meditates, finally recalls the seven times statements of the Torah.

3. He does the math and WHAT DO YOU KNOW, the day the United Nations chooses to make Israel an official Jewish state, is the day the math reveals . . . a typical Bible prophecy (you understand in hindsight and wonder at God, rather than use foresight, to say, play the stock market).

Amazing.

Where does it say "seven times", though? I didn't see it in the passage you referenced.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Where does it say "seven times", though? I didn't see it in the passage you referenced.

Enter the verse in Google to see it in multiple renderings. But please don't miss the Kingdom of God because of a hair split. Someone read the passage--literally did the math--and it blew their mind! We can see other calculations where Jesus is foretold to die on Passover, 30 AD and other astonishing Bible codes.

 

[viole]

I understand. I've seen multiple translations that say "seven times over" or just plain "seven times". Seven times in a row rather than seven times simultaneously would solve the issue, yes?

What you really must do, though, is STOP. Consider the probability that the numbers worked out to May 15, 1948 by CHANCE, considering that no one put together the seven times bit with the Ezekiel prophecy until responding to atheists' accusations.

Follow:

1. Atheists see the Ezekiel prophecy expired and say, "Bible prophecy is wrong".

2. Some Christians deal with this, one of them meditates, finally recalls the seven times statements of the Torah.

3. He does the math and WHAT DO YOU KNOW, the day the United Nations chooses to make Israel an official Jewish state, is the day the math reveals . . . a typical Bible prophecy (you understand in hindsight and wonder at God, rather than use foresight, to say, play the stock market).

Amazing.

I don't think it has expired. I don't think it is fulfilled, yet.

God seems to indicate that when Israel will be reunited, the israelis will be His people, again.

My question is: can you be His people if you do not believe for a second that Jesus was His son?

Ciao

- viole

 

[leibowde84]

Enter the verse in Google to see it in multiple renderings. But please don't miss the Kingdom of God because of a hair split. Someone read the passage--literally did the math--and it blew their mind! We can see other calculations where Jesus is foretold to die on Passover, 30 AD and other astonishing Bible codes.

I did, and I still can't see anything about "multiply by seven" or "seven times". It just seems like a reach to make something that isn't an accurate prediction seem accurate. Just a staunch case of confirmation bias.

 

[EverChanging]

Since numerous discrepancies exist between the resurrection accounts I tend to view it as a symbol of transformation with knowledge.

We are always transforming, changing, the interplay of many forces. Resurrection is to embrace that and deepen insight into it. We live into resurrection and change our view of ourselves, the world we live in, and the universe.

 

[CG Didymus]

My God is Omnipotent, created the heavens, and sent his Son Jesus, who was spiritually resurrected from the dead so we could have eternal life.

Wait? I thought his followers were his body. And after Jesus died, they were like they were dead, spiritually dead. But after three days they came to life again, spiritual life and thus brought the body of Christ back to life again.

Another nit picky thing, if he was spiritually resurrected so we could have eternal life, does that mean before that we couldn't and didn't have eternal life?

 

[CG Didymus]

How do you know it was only symbolic?
Omitting information cannot be a contradiction. The resurrection is mentioned in all 4 gospels and several of the epistles.

You've read the gospels probably a hundred times. Are you looking for contradictions when you read them? Probably not. But what if you did. What are the difference in the stories? What is the same? Why are there differences? Who is the only person mentioned in all four accounts? Mary. Did anyone ask her, "Hey, what happened?" If they did, and reported the story different, then are they adding or omitting information? Whatever the story was. In one wasn't there an angel or two. In one didn't they woman leave. In another didn't Mary leave and come back with Peter and John and then see saw Jesus? Come on, omitting information is how you're going to explain it?

On the "symbolic" thing, I don't know. That's what the Baha'i Faith says. Are they wrong? Do you believe Jesus rose physically from the dead? If you do then you disagree with the Baha'is... who claim their founder is the return of Christ, in a spiritual, symbolic way. Are they wrong on that too?