Resurrected Christ: So what? Still not the Messiah?

[Trailblazer]

I believe I see none.

You cannot SEE unless you LOOK.

“If a man were to declare, ‘There is a lamp in the next room which gives no light’, one hearer might be satisfied with his report, but a wiser man goes into the room to judge for himself, and behold, when he finds the light shining brilliantly in the lamp, he knows the truth!”
Paris Talks, p. 103

 

[Hawkins]

Judaism would beg to differ kind dear.....

Today's Judaism is a remake after AD250 or so.

Messiah is to save souls from eternal hell, not a small nation on earth.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

The following questions are not about the questionable historicity of the resurrected Christ (as opposed to the historical Jesus).

So what if there's a resurrected Christ? Still not the Messiah?

Why did he not immediately reestablish the state of Israel, and succeed where Bar Kokhba failed? (Isa. 24:23)
Why did he not immediately return the Ten Lost Tribes and the diaspora of Judah to Israel? (Isa. 11:12)
Why did he not immediately inspire "the lost sheep of the house of Israel" to follow the commandments? (Eze. 37:24)
[Better yet: Why did he not immediately do so by means of mass revelation, not unlike at Mt. Sinai?]
Why did he not immediately inspire or wipe out all weapons of war? (Mic. 4:3, Isa. 2:4, and Eze. 39:9)
Why did he not immediately inspire the various foreign inhabitants of Mesopotamia, Persia, Greece, Rome, and elsewhere to recognize the wrongs they did to Israel? (Isa. 52 and 53)
Why did he not immediately cause knowledge of God to fill the world? (Isa. 11:9)
Why did he not immediately inspire the world to serve God? (Isa. 66:23)
Why did he not immediately establish permanent world peace? (Mic. 4:3 and Isa. 2:4)
Why did he not immediately replace the existing temple with a larger eschatological temple? (Eze. 37:26-27 and ch. 40-48)

Was doing the Christian Devil, chief priests, scribes, and elders one better (Matt. 4:6 and 27:41-42), bringing forward the Second Coming and strengthening the case of personal salvation, too much to ask?

[Answers like "in the Lord's time" won't do.]

He was resurrected, and he is the Messiah. People just put their own spin on what the scriptures are supposed to mean, and since they don't understand what God means, claim that they weren't fulfilled.

 

[Muffled]

There is enough evidence to sink a ship. You just do not like the evidence.
Baha'u'llah did not come down on a physical cloud as Christians are expecting, but He did descend from heaven.

Baha’u’llah cleared up the meaning of clouds in the Kitab-i-Iqan. He devoted quite a bit of text to explaining what clouds means. To paraphrase Baha’u’llah, Son of man coming on the clouds means that the return of the Christ Spirit will appear in the form of another human being. The term “clouds” as used in the Bible means those things that are contrary to the ways and desires of men. Just like the physical clouds prevent the eyes of men from beholding the sun, these things hindered men from recognizing the return of Christ.

Mark 14: 62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

The FIRST thing to note about all these verses is that none of them say “you will see me coming.” Rather they refer to the Son of man in the third person. Why do you think that is? If Jesus planned to return and wanted people to recognize Him as Jesus, why didn’t Jesus say: Mark 13:26 “And then shall they see me coming in the clouds with great power and glory.”

I will tell you why... It is because the Son of man refers to Baha’u’llah.

To explain in brief, to us Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven means that the return of the Christ Spirit promised in the Bible will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God, and will appear in the form of a human being. The term “heaven” means loftiness and exaltation. Although Messengers of God were delivered from the womb of their mother, they have in reality descended from the heaven of the will of God. Though dwelling on this earth, their true habitations are the realms above. While walking among mortals on earth, they soar in the heaven of the divine presence.

Nowhere in the NT did Jesus ever promise to return. Jesus said His work on earth was finished.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

John 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

You can believe that if you want to, but please keep in mind that our beliefs do not create reality. Reality exists. We either discover it or fail to do so.

I believe I descended from Heaven and I am no big deal.

I believe that is hogwash. Clouds are clouds and nothing else. Obviously that is an attempt to redefine things to agree with his own thinking in place of what God says.

I believe you ought to try to understand what you are reading. Of course it says we will see Him coming.

I believe that speculation has no basis in reality.

I believe there is no evidence to support that concept.

I believe that has problems on two counts. The first is the null hypothesis which means you have to show that it would be absolutely necessary for Him to say that. I believe it is not, because the angels said it for Him. Second the phrase "it is finished" refers to the crucifixion and can't be generalized to any future acts.

 

[Muffled]

Today's Judaism is a remake after AD250 or so.

Messiah is to save souls from eternal hell, not a small nation on earth.

I believe the Messiah is both. No doubt the salvation that comes at the battle of Armageddon when the whole world is gathered against Israel qualifies as a salvation of a small nation.

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe I descended from Heaven and I am no big deal.

I believe that is hogwash. Clouds are clouds and nothing else. Obviously that is an attempt to redefine things to agree with his own thinking in place of what God says.

I believe you ought to try to understand what you are reading. Of course it says we will see Him coming.

I believe that speculation has no basis in reality.

I believe there is no evidence to support that concept.

I believe that has problems on two counts. The first is the null hypothesis which means you have to show that it would be absolutely necessary for Him to say that. I believe it is not, because the angels said it for Him. Second the phrase "it is finished" refers to the crucifixion and can't be generalized to any future acts.

It does not matter what YOU believe or what I believe.
All that matters is what God ordains. Beliefs do not change reality.
It says we will see the Son of man coming but that does not refer to the same man Jesus.

 

[CG Didymus]

It does not matter what YOU believe or what I believe.
All that matters is what God ordains. Beliefs do not change reality.
It says we will see the Son of man coming but that does not refer to the same man Jesus.

So those that believed in the Bible, right or wrong, didn't change the world? You don't really think that people and their beliefs don't effect us do you?

 

[Trailblazer]

So those that believed in the Bible, right or wrong, didn't change the world? You don't really think that people and their beliefs don't effect us do you?

That is not what I meant. I meant that what we believe does not determine reality. Reality is what it is.

Of course what people believe changes the world. Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, and Hindus, etc. have changed the world for the better but some of them have also done some horrendous things in the name of God.

 

[CG Didymus]

That is not what I meant. I meant that what we believe does not determine reality. Reality is what it is.

Of course what people believe changes the world. Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, and Hindus, etc. have changed the world for the better but some of them have also done some horrendous things in the name of God.

You know the OP says that even if Jesus resurrected from the dead, he is still not the Messiah. What's interesting is the Baha'is say the opposite... That he did't, physically, resurrect, but he is the Messiah. So what is beliefs and what is reality?

 

[Trailblazer]

You know the OP says that even if Jesus resurrected from the dead, he is still not the Messiah. What's interesting is the Baha'is say the opposite... That he did't, physically, resurrect, but he is the Messiah. So what is beliefs and what is reality?

It is all a matter of how we understand it, but it is not written in marble. For example, a Baha'i on a Baha'i forum said that there is more than one Messiah, so both Jesus and Baha'u'llah were Messiahs. Jesus was "a Messiah" but only Baha'u'llah was "the Messiah" that the Jews and all other religions have been waiting for.

If one wants to know reality, they study the Baha'i Writings. Most of the most important questions are answered in Gleanings and The Kitab-i-Iqan and Some Answered Questions. I like Paris Talks too.

 

[Muffled]

It does not matter what YOU believe or what I believe.
All that matters is what God ordains. Beliefs do not change reality.
It says we will see the Son of man coming but that does not refer to the same man Jesus.

I believe it appears you need to see the text so you won't be misinformed:

Acts 1: 11 who also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye looking into heaven? this Jesus, who was received up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye beheld him going into heaven.

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe it appears you need to see the text so you won't be misinformed:

Acts 1: 11 who also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye looking into heaven? this Jesus, who was received up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye beheld him going into heaven.

I already know what is in the text since I have discussed it at length over a period of many years with Christians on other forums.

Acts 1:10-11 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

The disciples were staring up into the sky. The two men dressed in white (angels) came along and asked why they were staring up into the sky. The two men then wondered why the disciples were staring up into the sky and said that the same Jesus who was taken up to heaven will return as he went to heaven. It does not say that the disciples saw a body go up.

It was the Christ Spirit that ascended, not a body, which is why the angels wondered why the disciples were staring into the sky, since there was nothing to look at. That makes perfect sense since angels can see spirits. Descending from heaven upon the clouds means that the spirit of Jesus, the Christ Spirit, will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God and will appear in the form of the human temple. Though delivered from the womb of Mary, Jesus in reality descended from the heaven of the will of God. Baha’u’llah descended in like manner, from the heaven of the will of God.

“But as the clergy have neither understood the meaning of the Gospels nor comprehended the symbols, therefore, it has been said that religion is in contradiction to science, and science in opposition to religion, as, for example, this subject of the ascension of Christ with an elemental body to the visible heaven is contrary to the science of mathematics. But when the truth of this subject becomes clear, and the symbol is explained, science in no way contradicts it; but, on the contrary, science and the intelligence affirm it.”
Some Answered Questions, pp. 104-105

 

[CG Didymus]

I already know what is in the text since I have discussed it at length over a period of many years with Christians on other forums.

Acts 1:10-11 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

The disciples were staring up into the sky. The two men dressed in white (angels) came along and asked why they were staring up into the sky. The two men then wondered why the disciples were staring up into the sky and said that the same Jesus who was taken up to heaven will return as he went to heaven. It does not say that the disciples saw a body go up.

It was the Christ Spirit that ascended, not a body, which is why the angels wondered why the disciples were staring into the sky, since there was nothing to look at. That makes perfect sense since angels can see spirits. Descending from heaven upon the clouds means that the spirit of Jesus, the Christ Spirit, will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God and will appear in the form of the human temple. Though delivered from the womb of Mary, Jesus in reality descended from the heaven of the will of God. Baha’u’llah descended in like manner, from the heaven of the will of God.

“But as the clergy have neither understood the meaning of the Gospels nor comprehended the symbols, therefore, it has been said that religion is in contradiction to science, and science in opposition to religion, as, for example, this subject of the ascension of Christ with an elemental body to the visible heaven is contrary to the science of mathematics. But when the truth of this subject becomes clear, and the symbol is explained, science in no way contradicts it; but, on the contrary, science and the intelligence affirm it.”
Some Answered Questions, pp. 104-105

Verse three says Jesus presented himself alive. And in verse nine says that Jesus was lifted up until the cloud took him out of their sight. So are you sure about your interpretation?

 

[Trailblazer]

Verse three says Jesus presented himself alive. And in verse nine says that Jesus was lifted up until the cloud took him out of their sight. So are you sure about your interpretation?

I don't care what it says in Acts. The Bible was written by fallible men and there are many different ways it can be interpreted, as many ways as thee are sects of Christianity.
I do not know if my interpretation is correct and it does not matter....Jesus did not rise from His grave and Jesus did not float up into the sky on a cloud, nor will Jesus return from the clouds.

The dispensation of Jesus Christ has been abrogated by the Revelation of Baha'u'llah.
There is no reason to be reading the Bible anymore.
The Bible is the main cause of people turning away from Baha'u'llah, be they Christians or nonbelievers.

I have no idea why God ever allowed such a book to be written. Maybe it was a test to separate the wheat from the chaff.
But it's over now, we do not need the Bible anymore. Why do people keep talking about it as if it applies to this new age of mankind? It does not apply anymore. It is history.

 

[Muffled]

I already know what is in the text since I have discussed it at length over a period of many years with Christians on other forums.

Acts 1:10-11 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

The disciples were staring up into the sky. The two men dressed in white (angels) came along and asked why they were staring up into the sky. The two men then wondered why the disciples were staring up into the sky and said that the same Jesus who was taken up to heaven will return as he went to heaven. It does not say that the disciples saw a body go up.

It was the Christ Spirit that ascended, not a body, which is why the angels wondered why the disciples were staring into the sky, since there was nothing to look at. That makes perfect sense since angels can see spirits. Descending from heaven upon the clouds means that the spirit of Jesus, the Christ Spirit, will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God and will appear in the form of the human temple. Though delivered from the womb of Mary, Jesus in reality descended from the heaven of the will of God. Baha’u’llah descended in like manner, from the heaven of the will of God.

“But as the clergy have neither understood the meaning of the Gospels nor comprehended the symbols, therefore, it has been said that religion is in contradiction to science, and science in opposition to religion, as, for example, this subject of the ascension of Christ with an elemental body to the visible heaven is contrary to the science of mathematics. But when the truth of this subject becomes clear, and the symbol is explained, science in no way contradicts it; but, on the contrary, science and the intelligence affirm it.”
Some Answered Questions, pp. 104-105

I believe if they did not see a body go up then they did not see Jesus go up. After the resurrection Jesus is in a body.

I believe tit for tat is due since the angels did not say they saw the Spirit of Jesus ascend.

I believe that is an unjustifiable speculation.

I believe that is not true. Jesus was born of a virgin and the Baha'u'llah was not. Also the Spirit came upon Mary and no such thing happened with the B man. He has no sign accompanying him and he does not fulfill the angels prophecy. All he has is a claim and anyone can make one.

I believe this statement could be misconstrued unless you pay attention to what he is saying in context. He is saying that science currently can't explain what happened so the event stands as a symbol for the scientific explanation that will be understood later.

 

[Muffled]

I don't care what it says in Acts. The Bible was written by fallible men and there are many different ways it can be interpreted, as many ways as thee are sects of Christianity.
I do not know if my interpretation is correct and it does not matter....Jesus did not rise from His grave and Jesus did not float up into the sky on a cloud, nor will Jesus return from the clouds.

The dispensation of Jesus Christ has been abrogated by the Revelation of Baha'u'llah.
There is no reason to be reading the Bible anymore.
The Bible is the main cause of people turning away from Baha'u'llah, be they Christians or nonbelievers.

I have no idea why God ever allowed such a book to be written. Maybe it was a test to separate the wheat from the chaff.
But it's over now, we do not need the Bible anymore. Why do people keep talking about it as if it applies to this new age of mankind? It does not apply anymore. It is history.

I believe that is the crux of the matter. You don't care about what is true as long as you can hold onto some foolish notion about the B man.

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe if they did not see a body go up then they did not see Jesus go up. After the resurrection Jesus is in a body.

I believe tit for tat is due since the angels did not say they saw the Spirit of Jesus ascend.

I believe that is an unjustifiable speculation.

I believe that is not true. Jesus was born of a virgin and the Baha'u'llah was not. Also the Spirit came upon Mary and no such thing happened with the B man. He has no sign accompanying him and he does not fulfill the angels prophecy. All he has is a claim and anyone can make one.

I believe this statement could be misconstrued unless you pay attention to what he is saying in context. He is saying that science currently can't explain what happened so the event stands as a symbol for the scientific explanation that will be understood later.

You are free to believe anything you want to because you have free will...
However, beliefs do not create reality.

You said: "All he has is a claim and anyone can make one."

You are right. Anyone can MAKE a claim. However, only One can back up that claim with evidence.

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe that is the crux of the matter. You don't care about what is true as long as you can hold onto some foolish notion about the B man.

I believe that is the crux of the matter. You don't care about what is true as long as you can hold onto some foolish notion about Jesus floating up into the sky.

 

[Muffled]

You are free to believe anything you want to because you have free will...
However, beliefs do not create reality.

You said: "All he has is a claim and anyone can make one."

You are right. Anyone can MAKE a claim. However, only One can back up that claim with evidence.

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106

I believe that hits the nail on the head. The word of God is not there in the wrtiings of the B man so he is not God.

 

[Muffled]

I believe that is the crux of the matter. You don't care about what is true as long as you can hold onto some foolish notion about Jesus floating up into the sky.

I believe in the truth which is why I can believe the Bible and its statement that Jesus ascended. I believe what is a foolish notion is to say that the witnesses were lying as though they had something to gain by stating something foolish by our limited understanding of things.